Red Sox Spring Training 2023

[moonslav59]

Single Season IP Leaders since 1973 (last 50 years):

 

359 Wood '73

344 G Perry '73

343 P Niekro '79

334 P Niekro '78

333 N Ryan '74

330 P Niekro '77

328 F Jenkins '74

328 C Hunter '75

326 N Ryan '73

325 Blyleven '73

323 Palmer '75

322 G Perry '74

322 Messersmith '75

320 Wood '74

 

The only Sox player on the over 300 list since 1973: Luis Tiant 311.1 in 1974.

The only pitcher with 300+ after 1979: Steve Carlton in 1980 with 304.

Pitchers pitched 300 or more 29 times since 1973- all from 1973-1980.

290+ IP (55 times)- the latest? Blylebven with 294 in 1985.

280+ IP (81 times)- latest: Clemes with 282 in 1987 & Charlie Hough with 285 in the same year.

270+ IP (124 times)- latest: 1999 Randy Johnson 272 IP

260+ IP (206 times)- 2003 Halladay w 266 IP and Schilling 259 in 2002

250+ IP (319 times)- latest: Verlander w 251 IP in 2011 & Halladay in 2010 with 250.2.

240+ (462 times)- latest: Price w 248 in 2014, Cueto w 244 in '14

 

 

 

 

[notin]

Before 1943, Tommy John himself didn't exist.

 

There were only 16 teams in the majors... and dozens of guys threw 200 or more innings every year. Not a lot of big names, but it's hard to gauge the impact because of lost time -- and primes -- to World War II.

 

 

But my original point was - we don’t know today if players can pitch that many innings, and maybe teams just prefer they not do so for reasons related to money and strategy.

 

Also, those players in the 40s did face a smaller talent pool…

[mvp 78]

But my original point was - we don’t know today if players can pitch that many innings, and maybe teams just prefer they not do so for reasons related to money and strategy.

 

Also, those players in the 40s did face a smaller talent pool…

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/diamondbacks/analysis/starters-workload-stop-blaming-analytics-for-122-year-trend

 

In fact ever since 1901 the percentage of innings pitched by starting pitchers has continually decreased from previous years and decades. There is some ebb and flow of course, but the 122 year trend is undeniable, and did not just start since the popularization of modern analytics over the last 20 years.

 

The average rate of decrease for the entire 122 seasons is 0.3%. Notably however there are several points in history where that decrease was accelerated for a seven or eight year stretch.

 

The article is a quick and interesting read. It's free, too! There's a mention of the impact of the live ball era, integration, analytics and the impacts that these have had on the overall quality of play that has reduced the ability of starters to simply pitch longer into games. It's the natural evolution of the game that has occurred for 122 years and should continue. Perhaps there is a threshold where innings will flatten out, but MLB doesn't seem to be there yet.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But my original point was - we don’t know today if players can pitch that many innings, and maybe teams just prefer they not do so for reasons related to money and strategy.

 

Also, those players in the 40s did face a smaller talent pool…

 

Of course, but for the same reasons, batters like Williams and DiMaggio ruled -- especially facing a tired or predictable starter the fourth time every night.

 

Your point about relievers and fresh arms is certainly valid... though I'd say because of that strategy, it's come full circle, as rare modern finishers like Halladay are even more valuable to save bullpens from burning out.

 

We still don't have a definitive answer why so many pitchers seem so brittle nowadays. All these specialized intellects in analytics departments on every club, and no one can prevent injuries. Maybe it's just overtraining; are year-round dumbbells just more detrimental than back when ballplayers spent offseasons hefting boxes on loading docks or taking long walks in the snow?

[mvp 78]

Of course, but for the same reasons, batters like Williams and DiMaggio ruled -- especially facing a tired or predictable starter the fourth time every night.

 

Your point about relievers and fresh arms is certainly valid... though I'd say because of that strategy, it's come full circle, as rare modern finishers like Halladay are even more valuable to save bullpens from burning out.

 

We still don't have a definitive answer why so many pitchers seem so brittle nowadays. All these specialized intellects in analytics departments on every club, and no one can prevent injuries. Maybe it's just overtraining; are year-round dumbbells just more detrimental than back when ballplayers spent offseasons hefting boxes on loading docks or taking long walks in the snow?

 

Are we sure they are more injury prone now or are we just misremembering the past?

[notin]

Of course, but for the same reasons, batters like Williams and DiMaggio ruled -- especially facing a tired or predictable starter the fourth time every night.

 

Your point about relievers and fresh arms is certainly valid... though I'd say because of that strategy, it's come full circle, as rare modern finishers like Halladay are even more valuable to save bullpens from burning out.

 

We still don't have a definitive answer why so many pitchers seem so brittle nowadays. All these specialized intellects in analytics departments on every club, and no one can prevent injuries. Maybe it's just overtraining; are year-round dumbbells just more detrimental than back when ballplayers spent offseasons hefting boxes on loading docks or taking long walks in the snow?

 

I’ll throw 2 other theories.

 

High school pitchers throw as hard as possible because radar gun readings over 95 mph translate into scholarships and signing bonuses. No one needs to throw 95-100 mph to get high school hitters out, but players do, often with negative results sooner or later. My prime example is Lucas Giolito, who had TJ prior to being drafted.

 

Also, Canadian pitchers seem to have a very high rate of injury. I’ve heard theories this is due to a shortened season in parts of Canada due to weather. And they’re not as prepared for dedicated baseball lives. Certainly our Paxton fits this, although the Sox other Canuck(Pivetta) does not. Others like Rich Harden and Adam Loewen absolutely do. But Paul Quantrill not so much. So it remains a plausible theory at best…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I’ll throw 2 other theories.

 

High school pitchers throw as hard as possible because radar gun readings over 95 mph translate into scholarships and signing bonuses. No one needs to throw 95-100 mph to get high school hitters out, but players do, often with negative results sooner or later. My prime example is Lucas Giolito, who had TJ prior to being drafted.

 

Also, Canadian pitchers seem to have a very high rate of injury. I’ve heard theories this is due to a shortened season in parts of Canada due to weather. And they’re not as prepared for dedicated baseball lives. Certainly our Paxton fits this, although the Sox other Canuck(Pivetta) does not. Others like Rich Harden and Adam Loewen absolutely do. But Paul Quantrill not so much. So it remains a plausible theory at best…

 

You know you were setting me up for this reply: Ferguson Jenkins, 4,500.2 IP... ya, that's thousands (162-gm avg: 243 IP in 19 MLB years)...

 

... and if you read any of Bill Lee's books, Fergie's training was very Seventies.

[notin]

You know you were setting me up for this reply: Ferguson Jenkins, 4,500.2 IP... ya, that's thousands (162-gm avg: 243 IP in 19 MLB years)...

 

... and if you read any of Bill Lee's books, Fergie's training was very Seventies.

 

Baseball Reference lists 135 pitchers as coming from Canada, with only 12 topping 1,000 IP.

 

And even among those 12, we had DL Frequent Flyers Erik Bedard and Kirk McCaskill…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Baseball Reference lists 135 pitchers as coming from Canada, with only 12 topping 1,000 IP.

 

And even among those 12, we had DL Frequent Flyers Erik Bedard and Kirk McCaskill…

 

I mean, ya, while we're at it, throw in pitchers from New England, where baseball weather is non-existent half the year. It's amazing that anyone from states not called California, Texas or Florida has a long productive big league career.

[mvp 78]

Misc Injury Updates:

 

Bello is ready for live bp.

 

Paxton back on mound this weekend.

 

Turner will get stitches out in 2 weeks. Opening Day isn't out of question?

 

Connor Wong is back hitting.

 

Mondesi hit and fielded grounders today.

[moonslav59]

Misc Injury Updates:

 

Bello is ready for live bp.

 

Paxton back on mound this weekend.

 

Turner will get stitches out in 2 weeks. Opening Day isn't out of question?

 

Connor Wong is back hitting.

 

Mondesi hit and fielded grounders today.

 

One site had Mondesi out until May.

[mvp 78]

One site had Mondesi out until May.

 

I'm relying on Mondesi for approximately 50 PA's this year. Not sure when they will happen. If he gives more, it's a bonus.

[moonslav59]

I'm relying on Mondesi for approximately 50 PA's this year. Not sure when they will happen. If he gives more, it's a bonus.

 

Wow. I thought Red was pessimistic.

 

Mondesi has never had under 50 in his 7 years in the bigs: 54 and 60 in 2 of the 7 years, yes, but WOW!

[notin]

I mean, ya, while we're at it, throw in pitchers from New England, where baseball weather is non-existent half the year. It's amazing that anyone from states not called California, Texas or Florida has a long productive big league career.

 

But we had nothing else to do in NE, so we started throwing the ball around in March!

 

In Canada, they play hockey and curling until May, the lacrosse through June and July. August is for baseball…

[Hugh2]

I don’t think people realize how good Mondesi and Duvall can be if healthy. Or maybe it’s just that they don’t have much confidence in this team staying healthy.

 

I have more confidence in Duvall staying healthy than Mondesi

[cp176]

Misc Injury Updates:

 

Bello is ready for live bp.

 

Paxton back on mound this weekend.

 

Turner will get stitches out in 2 weeks. Opening Day isn't out of question?

 

Connor Wong is back hitting.

 

Mondesi hit and fielded grounders today.

 

Connor Wong is hitting? lol

[cukes]

On that 1980 team the 5 starters threw a combined total of 1257.33 innings.

 

That's 5 pitchers, averaging 251.5 innings apiece.

 

Back in the day there were a lot of complete games before 5/6 inning pitchers were common, and Martin had no bullpen with Oakland in those years

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don’t think people realize how good Mondesi and Duvall can be if healthy. Or maybe it’s just that they don’t have much confidence in this team staying healthy.

 

I have more confidence in Duvall staying healthy than Mondesi

 

I've been watching Duvall in all the ST games. A lot of swings and misses, pulling his head trying to pull everything -- especially the JD low-and-away slider.

 

Is a health issue causing this approach for Duvall? I ask this, because most of the successful Red Sox batters have been spraying the ball with a focus on the opposite-field: Tapia, Casas, Alfaro, Dalbec, Duran, Arroyo, etc. It's like the organization is really stressing the application of team-wide contact (which makes sense, after leading the league in extra-inning losses in '22).

[Old Red]

Connor Wong is hitting? lol

 

I think Alfaro would have beaten Wong out for a spot in Boston injury, or not.

[notin]

I think Alfaro would have beaten Wong out for a spot in Boston injury, or not.

 

Alfaro is the better hitter, but Wong looks better defensively (caveat: limited action). But Wong had a massive leg up given he’s on the 40 man roster and Alfaro is on a minor league contract. So keeping Wong over Alfaro would have let the team control both, at least until Alfaro’s opt out date.

 

The injury to Wong makes that moot, as it’s going to allow Alfaro on to the 40 man…

[Old Red]

I've been watching Duvall in all the ST games. A lot of swings and misses, pulling his head trying to pull everything -- especially the JD low-and-away slider.

 

Is a health issue causing this approach for Duvall? I ask this, because most of the successful Red Sox batters have been spraying the ball with a focus on the opposite-field: Tapia, Casas, Alfaro, Dalbec, Duran, Arroyo, etc. It's like the organization is really stressing the application of team-wide contact (which makes sense, after leading the league in extra-inning losses in '22).

 

Duvall struck out 101 times in 287 AB last year. If Duvall doesn’t hit a bunch of HR he’s not going to give you much else anyway.

[mvp 78]

I think Alfaro would have beaten Wong out for a spot in Boston injury, or not.

 

No. Alfaro isn't a very good catcher. Alfaro also has a horrible approach at the plate (career 34% k, 4% bb). He was strictly brought in as injury insurance.

[notin]

I've been watching Duvall in all the ST games. A lot of swings and misses, pulling his head trying to pull everything -- especially the JD low-and-away slider.

 

Is a health issue causing this approach for Duvall? I ask this, because most of the successful Red Sox batters have been spraying the ball with a focus on the opposite-field: Tapia, Casas, Alfaro, Dalbec, Duran, Arroyo, etc. It's like the organization is really stressing the application of team-wide contact (which makes sense, after leading the league in extra-inning losses in '22).

 

I’m not wild about Duvall in CF.

 

Defensively I like him over most of the other internal options, but his 0 for 11 with 6 k’s isn’t a surprise. He’s always swung and missed a lot. I mean, a lot of people think Trevor Story K’s too much. If so, you’re not going to like Duvall. Duvall’s career high in K’s is 174. The last time Trevor Story had that many strikeouts, it took him 101 more PA than it took Duvall.

[mvp 78]

Alfaro is the better hitter, but Wong looks better defensively (caveat: limited action). But Wong had a massive leg up given he’s on the 40 man roster and Alfaro is on a minor league contract. So keeping Wong over Alfaro would have let the team control both, at least until Alfaro’s opt out date.

 

The injury to Wong makes that moot, as it’s going to allow Alfaro on to the 40 man…

 

Alfaro's contract has an "upward mobility clause."

 

https://bloggingtheredsox.com/2023/03/02/red-sox-jorge-alfaro-has-unique-clause-in-contract-that-could-make-him-available-to-all-other-teams-later-this-month/

 

It instead allows Alfaro to secure a major-league opportunity elsewhere if the Red Sox are not willing to give him one. If Alfaro is not added to Boston’s 40-man roster by March 25, he can request to become available to all 29 other teams in hopes of landing a big-league job.

 

If another club is interested in Alfaro, the Red Sox would then have 72 hours to either add Alfaro to their own 40-man roster or allow him to switch teams. If no other club is interested in Alfaro at the time of his request, Boston would be able to keep the 29-year-old without committing a 40-man roster spot to him.

[mvp 78]

I’m not wild about Duvall in CF.

 

Defensively I like him over most of the other internal options, but his 0 for 11 with 6 k’s isn’t a surprise. He’s always swung and missed a lot. I mean, a lot of people think Trevor Story K’s too much. If so, you’re not going to like Duvall. Duvall’s career high in K’s is 174. The last time Trevor Story had that many strikeouts, it took him 101 more PA than it took Duvall.

 

Yeah, Duvall is a corner OFer. He's was a very underwhelming addition.

[Old Red]

No. Alfaro isn't a very good catcher. Alfaro also has a horrible approach at the plate (career 34% k, 4% bb). He was strictly brought in as injury insurance.

 

I know about his contract, and I know why he was brought in , but I still say he makes the big club over Wong injury, or not. I don’t think not being on the 40 man gives Wong a massive leg up either, but we will see.

[notin]

Yeah, Duvall is a corner OFer. He's was a very underwhelming addition.

 

So if he struggles - Tapia or Rafaela?

 

Tapia is the veteran option, but Rafaela is on the 40 man..

[mvp 78]

So if he struggles - Tapia or Rafaela?

 

Tapia is the veteran option, but Rafaela is on the 40 man..

 

Depends on Rafaela and the time of year. Are we talking August or May? There's a chance Tapia makes the MLB roster early in the season. I don't see that happening with Rafaela.

[notin]

Depends on Rafaela and the time of year. Are we talking August or May? There's a chance Tapia makes the MLB roster early in the season. I don't see that happening with Rafaela.

 

Sounds reasonable. Especially since Tapia isn’t exactly JBJ with the glove…

[Old Red]

Sounds reasonable. Especially since Tapia isn’t exactly JBJ with the glove…

 

Neither is anyone else in the Red Sox OF exactly JBJ with the glove.