A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[moonslav59]

Because not all of those had long tenure with the RS. Also, I wasn't aware that Pedroia was shipped off; you mean Nomar. Two different humans.

 

I meant Pedro not Pedey. My bad.

[cp176]

JH/Bloom obviously don't care that fans are human beings and get attached to other human beings--players we've followed for a while. Vaz, Beni, Betts, Devers, Bogey, even JBJ, JD. Even announcers are expendable. Apparently they think all fans are automatons, wannabe GMs and fantasy geeks. But we're not (well, I obviously can't speak to all of you). We actually care about the particular individuals who play the game. Why should I follow the RS, when I can follow the players I've grown to care about right here in LA?

 

I think that you are absolutely right. It is a loyalty thing as well. I think that there is a misconception that winning it all is the hook that most fans believe in. I find Bloom and the way business is currently being done to be a huge turnoff.

[notin]

I'd prefer Whitlock in the bullpen.

 

That ship has sailed. Houck is the new pitcher with a role in question…

[notin]

JH/Bloom obviously don't care that fans are human beings and get attached to other human beings--players we've followed for a while. Vaz, Beni, Betts, Devers, Bogey, even JBJ, JD. Even announcers are expendable. Apparently they think all fans are automatons, wannabe GMs and fantasy geeks. But we're not (well, I obviously can't speak to all of you). We actually care about the particular individuals who play the game. Why should I follow the RS, when I can follow the players I've grown to care about right here in LA?

 

The loyalty that you want back was servitude. Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski and all those other players you grew up idolizing didn’t stay with the Sox out of loyalty; they had no choice to join the team and no option to leave.

 

Some fans might romanticize relegation a bit too much…

[Bellhorn04]

The loyalty that you want back was servitude. Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski and all those other players you grew up idolizing didn’t stay with the Sox out of loyalty; they had no choice to join the team and no option to leave.

 

I think what he's talking about is ownership's failure (to retain elite and popular players like Betts and Bogaerts).

[mvp 78]

The Geeks aren't the ones telling JH not to sign any large and long deals, IMO, anyway.

 

We really have no idea about the inner workings. It's just our biases telling us who to blame.

 

Truthfully, they are all to blame.

[mvp 78]

Oh, they have to be long tenured, like Boggs. That was a good time to quit.

 

Or, back when Evans left, of the great Haywood Sullivan purge.

 

Red Sox fandom fell to a pretty big low around the time Boggs and Clemens left from what I remember.

[Old Red]

Red Sox fandom fell to a pretty big low around the time Boggs and Clemens left from what I remember.

 

Boggs, and Clemens were not all that popular when they left compared to Mookie, and Bogey.

[mvp 78]

Boggs, and Clemens were not all that popular when they left compared to Mookie, and Bogey.

 

Sox attendance hasn't dipped since Betts left (held steady at 4th out of 15 for AL), but this offseason could change that. Yes, the TOTAL attendance figure is down, but it's down across MLB.

[moonslav59]

We really have no idea about the inner workings. It's just our biases telling us who to blame.

 

Truthfully, they are all to blame.

 

They may have a hand in it, that's why I added, "IMO."

[moonslav59]

Red Sox fandom fell to a pretty big low around the time Boggs and Clemens left from what I remember.

 

Indeed, and it took a long time for the winning to erase that pain, in that case.

 

We lost Pedro and won, afterwards.

 

We had a purge of our 2007 WS ace, Beckett and AGon in 2012, and won the v ery next year.

 

We purged nearly our whole rotation- a damn good one, too- in 2014, plus Andrew Miller and won a ring 4 years later.

 

Fans were not happy, many times after losing stars.

 

I'm not saying this time will be different, and if we don't start winning, soon, it will be different, but my point is, winning helps us forget those losses real quickly.

[jad]

There is never a lack of apologists and sycophants in the presence of individual or corporate power. My point was so straight-forward and obvious, I am stunned at the energy and genius squandered on mis-representing it.

[mvp 78]

Indeed, and it took a long time for the winning to erase that pain, in that case.

 

We lost Pedro and won, afterwards.

 

We had a purge of our 2007 WS ace, Beckett and AGon in 2012, and won the v ery next year.

 

We purged nearly our whole rotation- a damn good one, too- in 2014, plus Andrew Miller and won a ring 4 years later.

 

Fans were not happy, many times after losing stars.

 

I'm not saying this time will be different, and if we don't start winning, soon, it will be different, but my point is, winning helps us forget those losses real quickly.

 

There's a big difference between losing 32 year old Pedro (who only had one great season left in him) and what happened with Xander and Mookie.

[mvp 78]

There is never a lack of apologists and sycophants in the presence of individual or corporate power. My point was so straight-forward and obvious, I am stunned at the energy and genius squandered on mis-representing it.

 

There are people that want to believe that it will all work out in the end and that the Sox will field a competitive team in April. I'm not going to definitively state that this team is going to be a train wreck, but I don't see this team making any sort of playoff run unless there is some significant changes that we haven't seen yet. FA wise, there isn't much left out there to obtain.

 

Is Bloom intentionally dumping Ben/DD guys because he wants to put his stamp on the organization? I don't believe it. Is he trying to sign guys to a set "market rate" that he refuses to go over, which has caused him to be left in the dust by a changing FA market? YES.

[Old Red]

There's a big difference between losing 32 year old Pedro (who only had one great season left in him) and what happened with Xander and Mookie.

 

There is also a big difference I believe in a homegrown talent that fans had heard about in the minors, and watched them come up, and in some cases grow up like Bogey. Some just don’t get that for some reason.

[Old Red]

Good article in the Athletic today by Ken Rosenthal on the Red Sox, and Henry/Bloom. One thing Kennedy did say was that the best way to make fans happy is to win a WS, and not build the #1 system.

[moonslav59]

There's a big difference between losing 32 year old Pedro (who only had one great season left in him) and what happened with Xander and Mookie.

 

Many fans were not aware Pedro's arm was literally held together by a thread, when we lost him. Many were pissed. They were pissed we lost DeLowe, even Bronson Arroyo. I know Beltre was a one year guy, but fans were pissed, then, too. I was happy when Jake left- others were irate.

 

I'm not sugar coating the loss of Betts and Bogey and maybe Devers.

 

I'm not saying we look like we will be winning anytime soon. I felt that way right before 2013, too.

 

I'm just saying, winning would help us get over these losses- not that I predict we will be winning real soon.

[Bellhorn04]

Good article in the Athletic today by Ken Rosenthal on the Red Sox, and Henry/Bloom. One thing Kennedy did say was that the best way to make fans happy is to win a WS, and not build the #1 system.

 

Fans want it all.

 

We won the WS in 2018 and fans bitched all through 2019, blaming Cora for the pitchers not being ready for the season etc.

 

Fans never stay happy for long.

[moonslav59]

There are people that want to believe that it will all work out in the end and that the Sox will field a competitive team in April. I'm not going to definitively state that this team is going to be a train wreck, but I don't see this team making any sort of playoff run unless there is some significant changes that we haven't seen yet. FA wise, there isn't much left out there to obtain.

 

Is Bloom intentionally dumping Ben/DD guys because he wants to put his stamp on the organization? I don't believe it. Is he trying to sign guys to a set "market rate" that he refuses to go over, which has caused him to be left in the dust by a changing FA market? YES.

 

That seems like the best simplified answer out there. I agree.

 

I think there is more to it, that maybe we will never find out, but some changes need to be made on the decision-making process and keeping up with the changing market and rule changes.

 

We'll need a near repeat of 2013's everything goes right season to have a chance in 2023, an d unless we make at least 2 more significant additions, this winter, the odds will be slim.

[mvp 78]

Fans want it all.

 

We won the WS in 2018 and fans bitched all through 2019, blaming Cora for the pitchers not being ready for the season etc.

 

Fans never stay happy for long.

 

The window was closing! We didn't really know how true that was though.

[moonslav59]

Good article in the Athletic today by Ken Rosenthal on the Red Sox, and Henry/Bloom. One thing Kennedy did say was that the best way to make fans happy is to win a WS, and not build the #1 system.

 

Fans might not realize that building a number 1 system if often the best way to win a WS, and they don't have the patience to wait it out.

[moonslav59]

The window was closing! We didn't really know how true that was though.

 

Many saw it coming, but didn't expect it to crash down so suddenly like it did.

[mvp 78]

That seems like the best simplified answer out there. I agree.

 

I think there is more to it, that maybe we will never find out, but some changes need to be made on the decision-making process and keeping up with the changing market and rule changes.

 

We'll need a near repeat of 2013's everything goes right season to have a chance in 2023, an d unless we make at least 2 more significant additions, this winter, the odds will be slim.

 

Again, this offseason is Bloom's legacy. He got a pass for Mookie leaving. If the Sox are not good this year, it's because of his roster construction over the past few years. His inaction and curious small-market moves have not put the Sox in the position to win for the most part. 2021 was a good season. 2020 and 2022 were not.

[mvp 78]

Fans might not realize that building a number 1 system if often the best way to win a WS, and they don't have the patience to wait it out.

 

The way to help with fans patience: give them players to root for in the meantime like re-signing Mookie or Xander.

[Old Red]

Fans might not realize that building a number 1 system if often the best way to win a WS, and they don't have the patience to wait it out.

 

To me the best way to build a #1 system is to keep homegrown future HOF performers who have proven they can produce, and win in Boston. Something like Mookie, Betts, and Raffy, and NO Boston fans don’t have the patience to do any kind of rebuilds, and shouldn’t have to. A big market, high payroll team should be a competitive, winning team every year, and anything else is a failure. Like this last year when Kennedy said himself, Bloom, and Cora all failed.

[mvp 78]

To me the best way to build a #1 system is to keep homegrown future HOF performers who have proven they can produce, and win in Boston. Something like Mookie, Betts, and Raffy, and NO Boston fans don’t have the patience to do any kind of rebuilds, and shouldn’t have to. A big market, high payroll team should be a competitive, winning team every year, and anything else is a failure. Like this last year when Kennedy said himself, Bloom, and Cora all failed.

 

Hard to disagree.

[moonslav59]

Again, this offseason is Bloom's legacy. He got a pass for Mookie leaving. If the Sox are not good this year, it's because of his roster construction over the past few years. His inaction and curious small-market moves have not put the Sox in the position to win for the most part. 2021 was a good season. 2020 and 2022 were not.

 

100% agreed. I will add that I'm not sure this is all Bloom's choosing, but I'm the one who said this winter would likely set his "legacy" (maybe not the first) and was his "flashpoint" moment.

 

I'm fully prepared to join the Bloom bashing brigade, and lump Kennedy and others into the discussion, too.

 

The winter is not over, yet, but we know Bogey is gone. Nobody liked that.

 

I think there is still time to salvage the overall winter grade to a point where I'll think we are good enough to at least, say "Let's see how the 2023 team does, before bouncing Bloom and the whole top brass group."

 

As unlikely as it seems to many, here, a Devers extension would repair much of the deep feelings of disgust with Sox management. A few other moderate additions might make me actually think we have a shot at the playoffs. Of course, we'd need quite a few things to go right, namely good health to 3 out 4 of Sale, Paxton, Kike, Story, and some help from the kids, but it's not impossible.

 

I'm also thinking that having Bogey, Nate and JD back on 2+ year deals would not necessarily make us winners, either. Except for Bogey, non of the guys we lost from the 2022 team were the 2018 versions of themselves.

 

I think I might get a little bit excited over this team:

 

1. Yoshida DH

2, Story 2B

3. Devers 3B

4. Turner DH

5. Casas 1B

6. Kike CF

7. Dugo/Ref RF

8. Andrus SS

9. McGuire/Wong C

Bench: Arroyo/Dalbec/Ref/Wong

 

SP1 Sale and Paxton combined

SP2 Whitlock

SP3 Kluber

SP4 Bello

SP5 Pivetta

 

RP1 Jansen

RP2 Martin

RP3 Houck

RP4 Schreiber

RP5 Barnes

RP6 Joely

RP7 Mills

RP8 Brasier/Taylor/Crawford/Wink/Kelly/German/Mata and others

 

That offense might be much better than 2022.

The defense ay 1B, 2B, CF and C should be better. Maybe worse at LF and RF.

The rotation was not great in 2022 and this one does not look better, but would bringing Nate, Wacha and Hill back be more promising?

The pen should be light years better, despite Whitlocks removal from it.

[moonslav59]

To me the best way to build a #1 system is to keep homegrown future HOF performers who have proven they can produce, and win in Boston. Something like Mookie, Betts, and Raffy, and NO Boston fans don’t have the patience to do any kind of rebuilds, and shouldn’t have to.

 

No doubt. I wanted us to offer Betts $400M/14. I disagree on it being so obvious to pay Bogey what he wanted, but surely with the market explosion, what he wanted a year or more ago, would look pretty good, now. I do have concerns about his not wanting to move off SS.

 

I'd like to have kept Lester and Betts. I was never traumatized on losing Beni. I'm not 100% sold on Bogey locked up for 7-8 years will prove to be a major mistake, but it certainly sucks, right now.

 

It's not the only way to win, however, and fans would be pissed having our stars while losing, too.

 

We had all these guys in 2019, a high budget, and we still lost and looked to be getting worse not better.

[moonslav59]

The way to help with fans patience: give them players to root for in the meantime like re-signing Mookie or Xander.

 

Thanks for enlightening me. I would have never thought that.

 

I'm not happy we lost any of these guys. Nobody is.

 

It's not the only way to win and make fans happy, though, and that's not a defense of anyone, because we aren't winning and don't look to be in 2023, either.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

That seems like the best simplified answer out there. I agree.

 

I think there is more to it, that maybe we will never find out, but some changes need to be made on the decision-making process and keeping up with the changing market and rule changes.

 

We'll need a near repeat of 2013's everything goes right season to have a chance in 2023, an d unless we make at least 2 more significant additions, this winter, the odds will be slim.

 

2013 was a worst to first for the ages, but has to be kept in perspective. The only possible parallels the 2023 Red Sox have right now are pitchers being counted on to make massive comebacks to lead the staff. The '13 Sox got good contributions from a lot of new faces, and one was an overnight sensation, transforming into the greatest closer in at least team history -- for one season.

 

But that 2013 team also returned a core of three star players -- a Hall of Fame DH, a borderline Hall of Fame infielder and an outfielder who led the majors in stolen bases. That trio also finished 1-2-3 in MVP votes for Boston and in the AL's top 15.

 

The 2023 Red Sox are returning Raffy Devers... maybe.