A Realistic View at 2022: Part III

[JDavis76]

Obviously you have no ideal of what having stuff is. I get you you’re a very cynical person but you don’t get to just change the definition of things. Chris Sale has thrown innings in 2021/2022 since returning from injuries and his “stuff” which includes vertical break, horizontal break, and velocity remain elite. Just because he can’t stay healthy enough to help this team and you get all hot and bothered by it doesn’t change the definition of things.

 

Very small sample size.....

[Old Red]

He was decent enough in his actual turns - he just got hurt and then the bullpen needed him.

 

He was only in the rotation to begin with, because of injuries, and Houck wasn’t vaxed. The BP always needed him.

[dgalehouse]

There are a few theoretical type fans. Deep thinkers . Always wondering what if , if only , maybe , might , could be , possibly, etc. But the vast majority of Red Sox Nation is disappointed with this season. They are not in the mood for excuses . They are angry. They think it is time for a change . This is the reality . Here is one more reality . No matter how much some may try to explain or justify it , trading Mookie Betts is a sin that cannot be forgiven. And when you set out to re-shape a team , you had better be successful. And it hurts to watch the Sox flounder while the Dodgers thrive. There is no argument that can be made that changes that. Most Sox fans think that Bloom is in over his head. And one more thing ; If Bloom is only following John Henry's orders , then let Henry come forward and take the beat for this mess.

[Hugh2]

I think some are confusing “stuff” with results.

 

Chris Sale can longer produce results consistently. For several years now he’s had little success getting into game action and compiling innings. His results effing stink.

 

He still has 80 innings of baseball on top of simulated games in which pitches are still measured. We know for a fact his “stuff” is still there, he just can’t produce “results” because he keeps getting injured.

 

Here is how you guys end up being right and I end up being wrong.

 

Imagine everything working out exactly the same the last few years except when Chris Sale did come back his fastball is only sitting 89-90 MPH, he has little separation between his change, his spin rate is down and he’s not getting the vertical drop he once was. He would then be a guy who looks like he didn’t recover from his surgery and is now injury prone. He can’t stay healthy and his stuff is gone. He can’t stay on the field and if he did we’d have little confidence in him producing results because his stuff is gone.

 

This is not reality, or at least it’s only half of it. Sales “stuff” is clearly still great. Just not the results because of his injuries.

 

Just because some of y’all are cynical and hot and bothered doesn’t mean you can rewrite reality and change the nature of things. Facts matter.

 

Will be waiting to laugh at how this gets spun, pun intended.

[Old Red]

There are a few theoretical type fans. Deep thinkers . Always wondering what if , if only , maybe , might , could be , possibly, etc. But the vast majority of Red Sox Nation is disappointed with this season. They are not in the mood for excuses . They are angry. They think it is time for a change . This is the reality . Here is one more reality . No matter how much some may try to explain or justify it , trading Mookie Betts is a sin that cannot be forgiven. And when you set out to re-shape a team , you had better be successful. And it hurts to watch the Sox flounder while the Dodgers thrive. There is no argument that can be made that changes that. Most Sox fans think that Bloom is in over his head. And one more thing ; If Bloom is only following John Henry's orders , then let Henry come forward and take the beat for this mess.

 

I don’t think JH’s orders were to drive this team into the basement of the AL East. You have tried to make that analogy before that most are not as Deep thinkers, and there is nothing wrong with that as some on here. Pissed, embarrassed, and just plain fed up are what most are, and it starts with Bloom, and some with JH. They don’t care what might happen 1,2, or three years from now.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

There are a few theoretical type fans. Deep thinkers . Always wondering what if , if only , maybe , might , could be , possibly, etc. But the vast majority of Red Sox Nation is disappointed with this season. They are not in the mood for excuses . They are angry. They think it is time for a change . This is the reality .

 

Too bad for them. The only thing they can do about it is complain and/or stop watching. That's reality too.

[Hugh2]

You have your opinion, and I have mine. I’m not changing your opinion, and that’s fine, and your not changing mine, or anyone else by the sound of it. Let’s move on to someone who is actually playing.

 

Haha ok, but If you live in the world of baseball when you what scouts, GMs, managers, and people talk about a pitchers stuff, they’re sharing my opinion. So to act like this is a matter of opinion is just a little absurd, because your changing what having “stuff” is in the general baseball world. I could say strawberries taste like lemon, or I’m emperor

of Mars because “I have my opinion” your opinion is based on your misunderstanding of what “stuff” is. Or at least in the context of talking about a MLB pitcher.

[Old Red]

I think some are confusing “stuff” with results.

 

Chris Sale can longer produce results consistently. For several years now he’s had little success getting into game action and compiling innings. His results effing stink.

 

He still has 80 innings of baseball on top of simulated games in which pitches are still measured. We know for a fact his “stuff” is still there, he just can’t produce “results” because he keeps getting injured.

 

Here is how you guys end up being right and I end up being wrong.

 

Imagine everything working out exactly the same the last few years except when Chris Sale did come back his fastball is only sitting 89-90 MPH, he has little separation between his change, his spin rate is down and he’s not getting the vertical drop he once was. He would then be a guy who looks like he didn’t recover from his surgery and is now injury prone. He can’t stay healthy and his stuff is gone. He can’t stay on the field and if he did we’d have little confidence in him producing results because his stuff is gone.

 

This is not reality, or at least it’s only half of it. Sales “stuff” is clearly still great. Just not the results because of his injuries.

 

Just because some of y’all are cynical and hot and bothered doesn’t mean you can rewrite reality and change the nature of things. Facts matter.

 

Will be waiting to laugh at how this gets spun, pun intended.

No spin. IDC.

[Hugh2]

I can agree with Chris Sale can not be counted on in 2023 and should be treated as if he won’t. If he comes back healthy it will be a HUGE bonus for the team, but they need to operate as if he won’t.

[Hugh2]

And yes I’m aware I’m kind of coming off as a dick. I’m sorry, we all take our frustrations of this season out in our own ways. I can’t help it. I’m sorry.

[Bellhorn04]

And yes I’m aware I’m kind of coming off as a dick. I’m sorry, we all take our frustrations of this season out in our own ways. I can’t help it. I’m sorry.

 

You're fine.

[moonslav59]

Too bad for them. The only thing they can do about it is complain and/or stop watching. That's reality too.

 

I think theoretical and deep thinker fans, whoever they are, are disappointed by this season, too. All Sox fans are. Some are angry to varying degrees.

 

Deciding what the reasons for sucking and assigning blame may be done differently from fan to fan, and I guess one views others as making excuses, when their reasoning differs from their own.

 

I could say to Bloombashers, "You are just making excuses for the poor play by the players and clubhouse leadership of the team." I'm NOT interested in excuses like these! The team sucks because the players did not meet expectations! STOP blaming the manager and GM!

 

In all seriousness, just about everyone shares in the blame, especially the crybaby fans.

 

LOL.

[moonslav59]

Haha ok, but If you live in the world of baseball when you what scouts, GMs, managers, and people talk about a pitchers stuff, they’re sharing my opinion. So to act like this is a matter of opinion is just a little absurd, because your changing what having “stuff” is in the general baseball world. I could say strawberries taste like lemon, or I’m emperor

of Mars because “I have my opinion” your opinion is based on your misunderstanding of what “stuff” is. Or at least in the context of talking about a MLB pitcher.

 

As often is the case, some debates end up being about semantics and not the actual opinion, but when you try to bring it up, sometimes you get shot down for being nit-picky or just someone who misunderstands everything.

[JDavis76]

I think theoretical and deep thinker fans, whoever they are, are disappointed by this season, too. All Sox fans are. Some are angry to varying degrees.

 

Deciding what the reasons for sucking and assigning blame may be done differently from fan to fan, and I guess one views others as making excuses, when their reasoning differs from their own.

 

I could say to Bloombashers, "You are just making excuses for the poor play by the players and clubhouse leadership of the team." I'm NOT interested in excuses like these! The team sucks because the players did not meet expectations! STOP blaming the manager and GM!

 

In all seriousness, just about everyone shares in the blame, especially the crybaby fans.

 

LOL.

 

Well, the GM is the one that chose to have said players on the team and the manager is responsible for making sure his players can at least do the basic fundamentals....

[moonslav59]

And yes I’m aware I’m kind of coming off as a dick. I’m sorry, we all take our frustrations of this season out in our own ways. I can’t help it. I’m sorry.

 

I didn't take it that way, and I value your opinions, but I think we both viewed "stuff" differently. I don't disagree with your point, when viewing "stuff" the way you explained it, afterwards.

 

[Old Red]

I think theoretical and deep thinker fans, whoever they are, are disappointed by this season, too. All Sox fans are. Some are angry to varying degrees.

 

Deciding what the reasons for sucking and assigning blame may be done differently from fan to fan, and I guess one views others as making excuses, when their reasoning differs from their own.

 

I could say to Bloombashers, "You are just making excuses for the poor play by the players and clubhouse leadership of the team." I'm NOT interested in excuses like these! The team sucks because the players did not meet expectations! STOP blaming the manager and GM!

 

In all seriousness, just about everyone shares in the blame, especially the crybaby fans.

 

LOL.

 

The is no doubt the players poor play from Bogey, JD, and the past month of Devers too have contributed to this s*** show, and don’t leave out Kike either who sucked in the leadoff spot from day 1. However there was a cloud over the team, before the season even started with Blooms less than genius contract offers to Bogey, and Raffy. No plan by Bloom, and Cora for the backend of the BP to start the season, and then the Clown show at 1B with Franchy, and RF experience of Arroyo that took two months to long to fix, so yes Cora, and Bloom get a big share of the blame too. As for the one calling fans shallow, crybabies, or whiners probably are looking in the mirror.

[dgalehouse]

The guy at the top has to be accountable for the results. In this case , the guy at the top is Bloom and the results have not been good.

[dgalehouse]

To get back to Sale : I think he still has good stuff when healthy . Maybe not as good as he once did , but still good . The question is : Will he ever get healthy and stay that way ? My suggestion was to make him the closer. It is an area of glaring need and he has both the stuff and the mentality to do it well. It would be a new challenge for him and it would decrease his overall workload. Maybe he could be like Eck. One objection to that says he makes too much money . To that I say , he is going to make that money anyway , even while on the shelf. Another objection is that starters are more important/va!uable than closers . To that I say , not necessarily . Some starters are , but some are not . And starters on the I.L.are definitely not. The role of the starting pitcher has changed in recent years . I honestly think the Sox should give this idea a try next year.

[notin]

To get back to Sale : I think he still has good stuff when healthy . Maybe not as good as he once did , but still good . The question is : Will he ever get healthy and stay that way ? My suggestion was to make him the closer. It is an area of glaring need and he has both the stuff and the mentality to do it well. It would be a new challenge for him and it would decrease his overall workload. Maybe he could be like Eck. One objection to that says he makes too much money . To that I say , he is going to make that money anyway , even while on the shelf. Another objection is that starters are more important/va!uable than closers . To that I say , not necessarily . Some starters are , but some are not . And starters on the I.L.are definitely not. The role of the starting pitcher has changed in recent years . I honestly think the Sox should give this idea a try next year.

 

I wouldn’t mind if they bumped Sale to closer, but I’d be surprised.

 

If there is a positive spin to Sale’s 2022, it’s that none of his injuries were to his left shoulder or left elbow. Even the broken wrist was his right one. He did break his left pinky finger, so I don’t know if that will impact anything pitching-wise, but it’s certainly not as important as his left index and middle fingers…

[moonslav59]

I wouldn’t mind if they bumped Sale to closer, but I’d be surprised.

 

If there is a positive spin to Sale’s 2022, it’s that none of his injuries were to his left shoulder or left elbow. Even the broken wrist was his right one. He did break his left pinky finger, so I don’t know if that will impact anything pitching-wise, but it’s certainly not as important as his left index and middle fingers…

 

Maybe the extra "rest" to his shoulder and arm will extend his career or make him stronger for the remining years of team control.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I wouldn’t mind if they bumped Sale to closer, but I’d be surprised.

 

 

The most common line I read from fans and reporters is that "he makes too much money to close." I guess a business plan combining budget and analytics would want to justify the team's biggest pitching investment by covering the most possible innings (and ideally outs) -- and thus, keeping him in the rotation.

 

For the same reason, we should expect they'd want to convert young Whitlock back to starting. But all of us experts know -- or have at least discussed -- the merits of locking down winnable games in the closing innings.

 

Is there really a fine line between securing wins, and the subsequent profits of having a winning record? Did it pay off for the A's when Eckersly morphed into the first lights-out, 9th-inning only HOF finisher??? Maybe Oakland's attendance in the 90s is a bad example as a gauge, but the move certainly paid off in the standings...

[notin]

The most common line I read from fans and reporters is that "he makes too much money to close." I guess a business plan combining budget and analytics would want to justify the team's biggest pitching investment by covering the most possible innings (and ideally outs) -- and thus, keeping him in the rotation.

 

For the same reason, we should expect they'd want to convert young Whitlock back to starting. But all of us experts know -- or have at least discussed -- the merits of locking down winnable games in the closing innings.

 

Is there really a fine line between securing wins, and the subsequent profits of having a winning record? Did it pay off for the A's when Eckersly morphed into the first lights-out, 9th-inning only HOF finisher??? Maybe Oakland's attendance in the 90s is a bad example as a gauge, but the move certainly paid off in the standings...

 

Bear in mind, it’s not the Sox saying “he makes too much money to close.” That’s probably coming from fans and stupid journalists.

 

The White Sox briefly put him in that role, and the Red Sox did earlier this year. https://nesn.com/2022/05/could-chris-sale-return-from-injury-as-relief-pitcher-red-sox-undecided/

 

 

Anyone saying he makes “too much money to close” isn’t paying attention this year. By that logic, one should also assume Jackie Bradley made too much money to DFA..

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Bear in mind, it’s not the Sox saying “he makes too much money to close.” That’s probably coming from fans and stupid journalists.

 

The White Sox briefly put him in that role, and the Red Sox did earlier this year. https://nesn.com/2022/05/could-chris-sale-return-from-injury-as-relief-pitcher-red-sox-undecided/

 

 

Anyone saying he makes “too much money to close” isn’t paying attention this year. By that logic, one should also assume Jackie Bradley made too much money to DFA..

 

I've been on board with the idea of Sale closing -- and becoming a force like Eck or Smoltz -- since he forced Machado to take a (his own) knee.

 

It just made sense to allow a guy who was already breaking down at the end of every season to continue to dominate in a Mariano amount of frames, instead of pedal-to-the-mettle Sale totals.

 

This, of course, was all before he became the Red Sox' notorious Panda Rusney Crawdad of the mound...

[moonslav59]

I've been on board with the idea of Sale closing -- and becoming a force like Eck or Smoltz -- since he forced Machado to take a (his own) knee.

 

It just made sense to allow a guy who was already breaking down at the end of every season to continue to dominate in a Mariano amount of frames, instead of pedal-to-the-mettle Sale totals.

 

This, of course, was all before he became the Red Sox' notorious Panda Rusney Crawdad of the mound...

 

It might not be a bad idea, but many pitchers come back from TJS and do very well.

 

I don't think this last injury counts as "breaking down at he end of the season," but certainly there is a lot of data that shows he declines towards the end of most seasons.

 

He'd be one hell of an expensive closer, but right now, he's a very expensive IL guy, so why not?

 

That solves the Whitlock question and makes Houck an awesome set-up guy who can go 2 IP, if needed.

[notin]

It might not be a bad idea, but many pitchers come back from TJS and do very well.

 

I don't think this last injury counts as "breaking down at he end of the season," but certainly there is a lot of data that shows he declines towards the end of most seasons.

 

He'd be one hell of an expensive closer, but right now, he's a very expensive IL guy, so why not?

 

That solves the Whitlock question and makes Houck an awesome set-up guy who can go 2 IP, if needed.

 

Yep.

 

Too bad it will never happen.

 

And that’s because even 50% of Sale is a valuable commodity as a starter. If anything, he might become an opener…

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The idea of making Sale a closer isn't a bad one. But here's the big question; will Sale agree to go from starting to closing?

[notin]

The idea of making Sale a closer isn't a bad one. But here's the big question; will Sale agree to go from starting to closing?

 

Make him an open and use him 2-3 times per week in that role. That way he’s always facing the better and best hitters on the other team and (hopefully) neutralizing them for at least one turn…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The idea of making Sale a closer isn't a bad one. But here's the big question; will Sale agree to go from starting to closing?

 

Hey, Chris, instead of throwing six or seven innings once a week, can you give us just three... maybe four... but every other day? You'll still make $32 mil per, and we'll even furnish the bullpen with weekly supplies of yellow city jerseys and machetes for you to loosen up with, plus a tricycle and boxes of old ipads and flip phones to ride over. Someone on eBay already donated an old El Guapo arm sleeve to slip over your torso to keep your ribs intact...

[Bellhorn04]

Converting Sale to a reliever would only be a last-ditch option if he couldn't perform as a starter any more.

[notin]

Converting Sale to a reliever would only be a last-ditch option if he couldn't perform as a starter any more.

 

As 6 year old Notin used ask his mom every 15 minutes on a drive from Worcester to Albany to see grandma - “Are we there yet?”