Fire Bloom .

[JDavis76]

And Mr. Galehouse steadfastly ignores my point about DD winning 0 titles in 14 years with his previous team...

 

Will he say "I don't care about other teams!"? That's always a good one...

 

And you also continue to ignore that dd won a title with the marlins in '97 and was instrumental in building their farm that contributed to their second title in '03.....

[dgalehouse]

And Mr. Galehouse steadfastly ignores my point about DD winning 0 titles in 14 years with his previous team...

 

Will he say "I don't care about other teams!"? That's always a good one...

 

He won more than Bloom did in Tampa.

[moonslav59]

Price 2016

Martinez 2018

The others 2019

All DD contracts

 

+ Nate's contract in 2019.

 

The other thing is the point about Bloom inheriting Betts, Bogey, Devers, Beni and others is that when DD had them they were pre-arb and early arb-cost players. By the time Bloom took over, their costs were much higher, while at the same time, the budget was slashed deeply from 2019 to 2020 and winter spending was severely limited before 2021, too.

 

Again, some context is needed.

Edited August 23, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

The man you should be blaming is Henry. He fired Dave and hired Chaim. He obviously wanted to go in a different direction team-building wise. He's the guy pulling the strings. Maybe he's impatient, or hasty, or disloyal, or something. I don't know. Bloom is his 4th head of ops since 2003.

 

Look at the Yankees on the other hand. Cashman seems to have a lifetime contract, even though the Yankees have only won one pennant since 2003.

I do blame JH for the pocketbook, but it’s Bloom making the decision of what to do with the money he has like trading for a bigger contract like JBJ, and buying some prospects at the same time, who chances are will never put on a Red Sox uniform.

[Bellhorn04]

DD is getting blamed for leaving younger players who are getting more expensive? Wow! That’s a good one, and a new one.

 

It's not really something to blame DD for. It's just the somewhat wacky pay system in baseball. But it did contribute to the huge payroll commitments that Bloom inherited.

[Bellhorn04]

He won more than Bloom did in Tampa.

 

DD's Tigers and Bloom's Rays won the same number.

 

DD had some big payrolls with the Tigers, too.

[Bellhorn04]

I do blame JH for the pocketbook, but it’s Bloom making the decision of what to do with the money he has like trading for a bigger contract like JBJ, and buying some prospects at the same time, who chances are will never put on a Red Sox uniform.

 

That was a bad move and it cost $12 million for tax purposes. On the other hand, a $12 million mistake isn't going to kill the Red Sox.

[Old Red]

He traded away two players from the MLB roster, one of whom every fan was glad to see go. He even told Bogaerts he wouldn’t be traded.

 

Had he gutted the team, that sends a white flag message. Would that have been better?

Bogey had a no trade anyway. Who was it that every fan wanted to see gone.

[Old Red]

That was a bad move and it cost $12 million for tax purposes. On the other hand, a $12 million mistake isn't going to kill the Red Sox.

 

I agree, but the point being Bloom is responsible for what he does with JH money good, or bad.

[Old Red]

DD's Tigers and Bloom's Rays won the same number.

 

DD had some big payrolls with the Tigers, too.

Ran into Big Papi, and the Red Sox in one of those years.

[Bellhorn04]

As for JBJ, he's one guy I'm surprised didn't turn out to be a better hitter. At times he looks great. Like that 2-run double he hit off Cole for the Jays - over Beni's head no less!

 

It just shows what a tough game it is.

[Old Red]

It's not really something to blame DD for. It's just the somewhat wacky pay system in baseball. But it did contribute to the huge payroll commitments that Bloom inherited.

 

That I’ll agree with.

[Bellhorn04]

Ran into Big Papi, and the Red Sox in one of those years.

 

Yes. We were very fortunate to win that series. Not lucky, but fortunate.

[Bobe2]

Well, that point was wrong. The 2019 payroll was the team's highest ever for tax purposes. $243.6 mill + $13.4 mill tax.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iy3ZKDU_Crd0CkaVHLtK37bkFHmuDsICAyswsKrZXAk/edit#gid=1520401900

Sorry I was wrong on the 2019 number but your numbers actually make it worse he cut an additional 7 million from 2019 so he had an additional 7 mil to spend he’s within 4 million of the Red Sox highest payroll and has a team that’s not competitive

[JDavis76]

DD is getting blamed for leaving younger players who are getting more expensive? Wow! That’s a good one, and a new one.

 

As I said, the Spin Doctors!!

[moonslav59]

I'm pretty sure we all agree Bloom was given a high priority task of rebuilding the farm system as quickly as possible, and without seriously damaging the chances of the current team staying competitive or at least have the perception of being competitive or entertaining.

 

Of course, the results of the farm building won't be known for quite some time, and those who seem to be defending Bloom more than bashing him, know that. Nobody has proclaimed Bloom has fixed the farm as far as it needs to be fixed. Nobody is sure the players he has acquired will amount to more than squat, but all we can expect and hope for as fans, concerning the farm is that we seem to have more quality and quantity of promising players than we had before. I like the road Bloom is taking, but I'm not going to say he has been a success, just yet.

 

The Whitlock addition, which was technically a farm addition was a great start, but none of the prospects acquired via trades have done anything in the bigs, yet. Only a few (Downs, Wong, Wink, Seabold) have even seen limited time in the bigs, so far. It's way to early to make any final judgement on the farm-building aspect of Bloom's tenure as the Sox GM.

 

The budget priority is a bit easier to judge, and there seems to be much disagreement about even some of the most basic facts, like was there a limited budget in 2020 and 2021, or even 2022. Much of the longer term contracts- for good or bad are ending, this winter, and the only longer term deal added was Story. I happen to think our finances are better looking in 2023 than they were after 2019. I've yet to hear a Bloom basher say anything convincing about that looking worse.

 

The last, but likely not the least important priority was to put a competitive team on the field during the rebuild. You can count 2020, if you want, and say Bloom is 1-2, but I see him as being 1-1 or 1-1-1.

 

So, IMO, he looks good on farm building, but the jury is still out.

He looks good on prepping the budget for 2023 and beyond, but I guess that can be viewed as the jury still being out, until we see what he spends, this winter. I am fine with saying the jury is out, here, too.

He looks to be about even in season competitiveness record, but I can see how those who view recency above all else, saying he's a failure, here, or those who choose to count 2020 in the standings thinking the same way.

 

Call me an apologist or whatever, but I think Bloom was given some top priorities that maybe don't jive with some fans, and IMO his budgets have been severely limited until March of 2022. That also doesn't jive with those who think and say, Henry can spend as much as he wants, but that is not part of Bloom's reality. JH did not give him an open wallet. That's not an excuse: it's reality.

 

IMO, Bloom is going to be given a chance to show what he's got, this winter. It will almost certainly seal his legacy as a Sox GM. Depending on how well the 2023 team does and how we look going forward, maybe Bloom's days are numbered. If he makes a few more (too many more) JBJ-type trades and Diekman signings, I'll be calling for a change, too, but I've seen a lot of moves I like (Whitlock, Pivetta, Wacha, Schreiber, Refsnyder, Strahm, Kike, German) and some we all may end up liking, if some of his prospects acquired pan out to think he deserves another winter at the helm.

[moonslav59]

Sorry I was wrong on the 2019 number but your numbers actually make it worse he cut an additional 7 million from 2019 so he had an additional 7 mil to spend he’s within 4 million of the Red Sox highest payroll and has a team that’s not competitive.

 

Yes, and that noncompetitive team that DD handed Bloom after 2019 was then forced to cut $60M from the 2019 budget.

 

Somehow, Bloom was expected to create a winner out of that.

 

True, the team added about $23M to the 2021 team, but much of that was arb raises to inherited players nearing the end of their arb years. It wasn't new spending handed to Bloom. Bloom did have about $40M to spend for the 2021 team, but take a look at the 26 and 40 man roster he had to improve upon. I counted close to 10 key 26 man roster slots to fill while also trying to slowly improve the depth of the 40 man, in case of injuries and as a way to improve the longer term outlook.

[Bobe2]

Yes, and that noncompetitive team that DD handed Bloom after 2019 was then forced to cut $60M from the 2019 budget.

 

Somehow, Bloom was expected to create a winner out of that.

 

True, the team added about $23M to the 2021 team, but much of that was arb raises to inherited players nearing the end of their arb years. It wasn't new spending handed to Bloom. Bloom did have about $40M to spend for the 2021 team, but take a look at the 26 and 40 man roster he had to improve upon. I counted close to 10 key 26 man roster slots to fill while also trying to slowly improve the depth of the 40 man, in case of injuries and as a way to improve the longer term outlook.

 

The 2019 team won a World Series in 18 and had a 84-78 record in 19 and cost 243 mil this years team has a 60-62 record in last place and cost 4 million less than the 2019 team you can make all the excuses you want, and write an answer 2000 words long, the bottom line is still the same he cut the budget in 3 years by 4 million and gave us a non competitive team

[moonslav59]

The 2019 team won a World Series in 18 and had a 84-78 record in 19 and cost 243 mil this years team has a 60-62 record in last place and cost 4 million less than the 2019 team you can make all the excuses you want, and write an answer 2000 words long, the bottom line is still the same he cut the budget in 3 years by 4 million and gave us a non competitive team

 

It's really that simple?

 

I'll keep it short.

 

The 2019 team had 16 more losses than this team, and they spent more. (This makes as much sense as your point.)

[Bobe2]

It's really that simple?

 

I'll keep it short.

 

The 2019 team had 16 more losses than this team, and they spent more. (This makes as much sense as your point.)

 

Count this teams losses at the end of the season then talk to me, it makes as much sense as what you make up there’s no way you could know all the Red Sox financial transactions and their many expenses unless you work for them I doubt the Red Sox have one person with all that knowledge in their head,

[moonslav59]

Count this teams losses at the end of the season then talk to me, it makes as much sense as what you make up there’s no way you could know all the Red Sox financial transactions and their many expenses unless you work for them I doubt the Red Sox have one person with all that knowledge in their head,

 

The player budget is public knowledge.

 

The 2019 team was barely over .500 and Bloom was forced to cut $60M from that budget and then face raising arb costs and high priced DD guys going on the IL or falling off a cliff, but no, all that matters is the budget of 2019 is close to 2022's.

 

Got it.

[Bobe2]

The player budget is public knowledge.

 

The 2019 team was barely over .500 and Bloom was forced to cut $60M from that budget and then face raising arb costs and high priced DD guys going on the IL or falling off a cliff, but no, all that matters is the budget of 2019 is close to 2022's.

 

Got it.

 

That team had just won three al east titles in a row and a World Series they have one year they play .500 ball and you panic if you think about it Betts was the big bucks, he got traded I think they could have gotten more especially with Sox picking up half of Price money but I understand that move but Benny was low cost they signed Xander anyways and they let Bradley walk, everything good so far except Benny, Moreland free agent, Holt gone to, so the team needs two outfielders first baseman and second baseman in three years we have filled the second base position, this is what bothers me, Hose I believe is a free agent, Kiki free agent, give me two outfielders and a first baseman three guys that are good quality players at their position, Freddy Freeman is not necessary it’s been way to long, that’s not asking for a lot, I didn’t mention the pitchers because it’s a different can of worms

[moonslav59]

That team had just won three al east titles in a row and a World Series they have one year they play .500 ball and you panic if you think about it Betts was the big bucks, he got traded I think they could have gotten more especially with Sox picking up half of Price money but I understand that move but Benny was low cost they signed Xander anyways and they let Bradley walk, everything good so far except Benny, Moreland free agent, Holt gone to, so the team needs two outfielders first baseman and second baseman in three years we have filled the second base position, this is what bothers me, Hose I believe is a free agent, Kiki free agent, give me two outfielders and a first baseman three guys that are good quality players at their position, Freddy Freeman is not necessary it’s been way to long, that’s not asking for a lot, I didn’t mention the pitchers because it’s a different can of worms

 

The $3M they saved on the Beni trade, again the limited budget, was used to sign Renfroe.

 

After 2019, we cut $60M and needed to fill these slots:

1B

2B

RF (Betts traded)

C2

OF4

IF bench

Utility

 

That's 7 slots before we even look at pitching or 40 man roster depth.

 

The pitching (listed by most IP in 2019):

1. ERod out with COVID all 2020

2. Porcello (pitched 12 starts w the Mets and was out of baseball)

3. Sale (did not pitch in 2020 and barely any in 2021 or 2022 at mega bucks)

4. Price (traded with Betts as salary dump)

5. Walden (good riddance)

That's all of our top 6 pitchers in 2019 out or traded by 2020. Then...

7. Nate (missed some time over the last 3 yrs of his $17M/yr contract years)

8. Barnes

9 Velazquez (gone)

10. Brasier

11. Brewer (gone)

12. Cashner (gone)

13. Taylor (missed all of '22)

14. Weber (gone)

 

That's at least 8 or 9 pitchers gone from the top 13 of 2019, not to mention the 40 man roster pitching depth that needed upgrading.

 

Look at that 2019 roster, and all the holes left going into 2020, and you tell me about the great 2018 team residual affects?

[notin]

That team had just won three al east titles in a row and a World Series they have one year they play .500 ball and you panic if you think about it Betts was the big bucks, he got traded I think they could have gotten more especially with Sox picking up half of Price money but I understand that move but Benny was low cost they signed Xander anyways and they let Bradley walk, everything good so far except Benny, Moreland free agent, Holt gone to, so the team needs two outfielders first baseman and second baseman in three years we have filled the second base position, this is what bothers me, Hose I believe is a free agent, Kiki free agent, give me two outfielders and a first baseman three guys that are good quality players at their position, Freddy Freeman is not necessary it’s been way to long, that’s not asking for a lot, I didn’t mention the pitchers because it’s a different can of worms

 

You make it sound like you think getting Price was a positive part of the deal for LA, and not just a salary dump by Boston.

 

Two teams made offers for Betts. Two. Dodgers and Padres. And I think only the Dodgers we’re willing to take Price money to get Betts…

[Hugh2]

That team had just won three al east titles in a row and a World Series they have one year they play .500 ball and you panic if you think about it Betts was the big bucks, he got traded I think they could have gotten more especially with Sox picking up half of Price money but I understand that move but Benny was low cost they signed Xander anyways and they let Bradley walk, everything good so far except Benny, Moreland free agent, Holt gone to, so the team needs two outfielders first baseman and second baseman in three years we have filled the second base position, this is what bothers me, Hose I believe is a free agent, Kiki free agent, give me two outfielders and a first baseman three guys that are good quality players at their position, Freddy Freeman is not necessary it’s been way to long, that’s not asking for a lot, I didn’t mention the pitchers because it’s a different can of worms

 

What makes you think they could have got more? Not just with Betts but any situation like this that arises I find the argument silly saying "oh they could have got more". Like a G.M. picks up a phone and makes an offer and Bloom thinks "well gee golly gosh Philly was offering more but you say nice things to me DEAL" do you have any proof they were offered more? regardless of whether or not you liked or agreed with the Betts trade, I think any reasonable baseball fan can acknowledge that a businessman is always going to take the best offer. If I put something out to bid on Ebay I'm not selling it to the 2nd or 3rd highest bidder, it's going to the highest bidder.

 

If there is real evidence of a deal on the table that was much better that someone could present this argument would hole weight. To my knowledge, it does not.

[Hugh2]

You make it sound like you think getting Price was a positive part of the deal for LA, and not just a salary dump by Boston.

 

Two teams made offers for Betts. Two. Dodgers and Padres. And I think only the Dodgers we’re willing to take Price money to get Betts…

 

Lets also not pretend that Price has been worth much the past three years. Since he's been traded away he's averaged 36 innings a season.

[Bellhorn04]

My warm and fuzzies about Winckowski making the Beni trade pay off are fading.

[jad]

When your GM bets on (or enriches himself by) $100 for each RS loss, it's hard to be hopeful. But perhaps Bloom should invest that money not in the Jimmy Fund but in a new publicist.

[JDavis76]

My warm and fuzzies about Winckowski making the Beni trade pay off are fading.

 

But your master moon keeps proclaiming that winky was the big prize in winning the beni trade.......

[Bellhorn04]

But your master moon keeps proclaiming that winky was the big prize in winning the beni trade.......

 

Another good one, Skeeter.