Fire Bloom .

[JDavis76]

 

Well , I don't know what you are talking about then. And I don't want to know. I think you take this whole TalkSox thing far too seriously..

 

Ya think??!! LOL

[moonslav59]

This edition of TalkSox has a 2012 feel to it.

 

Losing seems to bring out the best in all of us!

[Bellhorn04]

AAH.The same could be said for other people on here. Remember there are two sides to every story, and while you are trying to diss someone the old I know you are, but what am I it could be turned around.

 

Yes, it has been said about other people here. Only seems fair to turn it around.

[moonslav59]

Yes, it has been said about other people here. Only seems fair to turn it around.

 

So much for agreeing to disagree.

 

Lastwordism always gets in the way.

[Old Red]

Yes, it has been said about other people here. Only seems fair to turn it around.

 

Turn, turn, turn.

[Bellhorn04]

Hardly, that more accurately describes you and moonbat. You guys have quite the dom/sub relationship going on.....

 

Only in your overactive imagination.

[Bellhorn04]

Ya think??!! LOL

 

Yeah, but at least he isn't a troll on another team's message board who a lot of people put on ignore.

[Old Red]

So much for agreeing to disagree.

 

Lastwordism always gets in the way.

 

When have you ever agreed to disagree, and didn’t think you had to get the last word in? I’m betting NEVER. You even bragged about it. Something to be proud about I guess.

[Old Red]

Yeah, but at least he isn't a troll on another team's message board who a lot of people put on ignore.

 

Put on ignore, but yet comments on everything that’s been said.

[JDavis76]

Put on ignore, but yet comments on everything that’s been said.

 

Yup, pretty sad.

[JDavis76]

Only in your overactive imagination.

 

Why are you upset that I outed you as the obvious sub in that relationship?

 

It was plain as day to the rest of us......

[Maxbialystock]

im glad that you will understand this, the 2018 championship team was having an off year in 2019 so bloom took over, since taking over every player on that team except 1 that has had a contract come up has been traded or allowed to walk Xander gave them a sweetheart deal and was signed but now he’s talking about a extension they are ready to get rid of him, the prospects that he has received are mostly tier 3 players, that means they have raw talent but not complete ball players and are not predicted to be major league talent, he made a good pickup in Renfroe .259 31 bombs and 96 rbi, low salary and control until end of 2023 season, then traded him for JBJ, this organization has shown no respect or loyalty to any of its homegrown players that they demand loyalty from, the kids in the minors are not blind they see how their peers are being treated and know what’s in store for them. The problem with his free agent hiring seem to be quantity over quality and when he gets a good one they are only on a 1 year deal and he can’t keep them Wacha is a good example 1 year deal 7 or 8 million, the organization has also diluted the talent on the Sox and lowered the moral of the team. So I guess this is why we are where we are. I can go on about this but there’s no sense in beating a dead horse

 

What nonsense.

 

DD inherited a ton of talent. The 2016 team already had Mookie (WAR 9+), Pedey (WAR 5+), JBJ (WAR 5+), Ortiz (WAR 5+), Bogey (WAR 3+), HanRam (WAR 3+ despite lousy fielding), Leon (WAR 2+), Shaw (2+), etc. So all he had to do was go out and buy Price ($30M/year) and Kimbrel for 2016, then Sale for 2017, then JDM for 2018, and Eovaldi for late 2018.

 

And he got fired because not only did the Sox sink form 108 wins in 2018 to 84 wins in 2019, but the Sox still had the highest freaking payroll in MLB. Furthermore, it was obvious by then that Price and Sale were crapping out (and continue to do so to this day) despite having huge contracts. It was beyond question time for a fundamental change because DD is all about spending large to get results. And, at the same time, Mookie was coming up for his first contract and got it--with the Dodgers and for $365, which was well over what John Henry was willing to spend when he already had pitching problems and the highest payroll (2019) in MLB.

 

So John Henry decided to go with Chaim Bloom, one of the architects of the Tampa Bay Rays excellent system for finding and developing talent within a restricted budget necessitated by a small fan base kept small by their horror of a ballpark.

 

While it is fair to say John Henry will spend a lot more than the Rays ownership, it's also clear he wants to build a good system somewhat like theirs, and that takes time. With Price and Sale on the payroll for big bucks (but not contributing much in 2019) and Mookie about to get megabucks, Bloom's first task was to shed Price and Mookie and hope to get something in return. Then came the pandemic and with it what I regard as the meaningless season of 2020.

 

So Bloom's first season was really 2021, last year, and the Sox not only won 92 games, but made it to the ALCS--after beating the Yankees and the 100 win Rays. And they did that, I hasten to add, without Price, Kimbrel, and Mookie and with very little of Chris Sale (and even less from him this year)--the very guys who made 2018 so successful. Heck, forget 2018 and look at 2017 when DD and the Sox had Mookie, Price and Sale when they were good, Kimbrel, Beni, Bogey, Moreland, JBJ, etc--and those guys were awful in the postseason, a bunch of incompetent quitters.

 

Despite the above, I do think the jury is still out on Bloom because he's now with a team that can spend more, but not as much as, say, the Dodgers and Yankees. Plus his boss wants him to rebuild, preferably from the ground up, which takes time. I like Bloom based on what he's done, but I don't know for sure he can make his system work with this team.

 

On the other hand, too few carping critics recognize the effect of all those injuries to the pitching staff this season--which have resulted in this team's ERA of 4.42 being the second worst (14th out of 15) in the American League.

 

Sale, whose recovery from Tommy John ended successfully last season, has pitched 7.2 innings this year. Eovaldi @$22M, has a WAR of 1 and was on the IL for over a month and is now day to day. Price @$16M doesn't belong to the Sox. Wacha, Hill, Whitlock, Houck, Paxton (recovering from tommy john has also had a setback), Danish, Bello, Taylor, Barnes, et al have all been or are on the IL.

 

That the Sox are just 2 games under .500 with such wretched, wretched pitching is a minor miracle. And let's not forget that Story, a terrific 2d basemen who is 2d on the team in rbi's, is still on the IL (since July 12). Plus Devers, Bogey, and especially JDM are all in slumps of varying lengths.

[moonslav59]

 

Sale, whose recovery from Tommy John ended successfully last season, has pitched 7.2 innings this year. Eovaldi @$22M, has a WAR of 1 and was on the IL for over a month and is now day to day. Price @$16M doesn't belong to the Sox. Wacha, Hill, Whitlock, Houck, Paxton (recovering from tommy john has also had a setback), Danish, Bello, Taylor, Barnes, et al have all been or are on the IL.

 

 

Also seeing time on the IL: Houck, Nate, Strahm, Bello, Danish and others.

 

The list of all season healthy pitchers is much shorter:

Pivetta

Crawford

Davis

Sawamura

[JDavis76]

What nonsense.

 

DD inherited a ton of talent. The 2016 team already had Mookie (WAR 9+), Pedey (WAR 5+), JBJ (WAR 5+), Ortiz (WAR 5+), Bogey (WAR 3+), HanRam (WAR 3+ despite lousy fielding), Leon (WAR 2+), Shaw (2+), etc. So all he had to do was go out and buy Price ($30M/year) and Kimbrel for 2016, then Sale for 2017, then JDM for 2018, and Eovaldi for late 2018.

 

And he got fired because not only did the Sox sink form 108 wins in 2018 to 84 wins in 2019, but the Sox still had the highest freaking payroll in MLB. Furthermore, it was obvious by then that Price and Sale were crapping out (and continue to do so to this day) despite having huge contracts. It was beyond question time for a fundamental change because DD is all about spending large to get results. And, at the same time, Mookie was coming up for his first contract and got it--with the Dodgers and for $365, which was well over what John Henry was willing to spend when he already had pitching problems and the highest payroll (2019) in MLB.

 

So John Henry decided to go with Chaim Bloom, one of the architects of the Tampa Bay Rays excellent system for finding and developing talent within a restricted budget necessitated by a small fan base kept small by their horror of a ballpark.

 

While it is fair to say John Henry will spend a lot more than the Rays ownership, it's also clear he wants to build a good system somewhat like theirs, and that takes time. With Price and Sale on the payroll for big bucks (but not contributing much in 2019) and Mookie about to get megabucks, Bloom's first task was to shed Price and Mookie and hope to get something in return. Then came the pandemic and with it what I regard as the meaningless season of 2020.

 

So Bloom's first season was really 2021, last year, and the Sox not only won 92 games, but made it to the ALCS--after beating the Yankees and the 100 win Rays. And they did that, I hasten to add, without Price, Kimbrel, and Mookie and with very little of Chris Sale (and even less from him this year)--the very guys who made 2018 so successful. Heck, forget 2018 and look at 2017 when DD and the Sox had Mookie, Price and Sale when they were good, Kimbrel, Beni, Bogey, Moreland, JBJ, etc--and those guys were awful in the postseason, a bunch of incompetent quitters.

 

Despite the above, I do think the jury is still out on Bloom because he's now with a team that can spend more, but not as much as, say, the Dodgers and Yankees. Plus his boss wants him to rebuild, preferably from the ground up, which takes time. I like Bloom based on what he's done, but I don't know for sure he can make his system work with this team.

 

On the other hand, too few carping critics recognize the effect of all those injuries to the pitching staff this season--which have resulted in this team's ERA of 4.42 being the second worst (14th out of 15) in the American League.

 

Sale, whose recovery from Tommy John ended successfully last season, has pitched 7.2 innings this year. Eovaldi @$22M, has a WAR of 1 and was on the IL for over a month and is now day to day. Price @$16M doesn't belong to the Sox. Wacha, Hill, Whitlock, Houck, Paxton (recovering from tommy john has also had a setback), Danish, Bello, Taylor, Barnes, et al have all been or are on the IL.

 

That the Sox are just 2 games under .500 with such wretched, wretched pitching is a minor miracle. And let's not forget that Story, a terrific 2d basemen who is 2d on the team in rbi's, is still on the IL (since July 12). Plus Devers, Bogey, and especially JDM are all in slumps of varying lengths.

 

Talk about nonsense, henry certainly can spend as much as the Yanks.

 

And even with the injuries, there is no excuse for a team with a $200M payroll to be cellar dwellers 2 games under .500....

[Bobe2]

Could the 2022 team "just be having an off year" like the 2019 team?

 

Trading Renfroe to bring back homegrown JBJ shows no respect to homegrown players? Am I missing the point, there?

 

You think keeping the 2019 team intact would have meant winning more? (Not to mention how could Bloom do that with the mandate to slash the budget by a huge percent?)

 

The leaders in games played by position on the 2019 are listed here:

 

C: Vaz

1B: Moreland- you want him back?

2B: Holt- you want him back?

3B: Devers

SS: Bogey

LF: Beni

CF: JBJ- you want him back?

RF: Betts

DH: JD

 

All the guys still here, except Devers declines from 2021 to 2022 or from 2019 to 2022.

 

Bench (listed by most PAs)

Chavis- you want him back?

Leon- you want him back?

Nunez- you want him back?

Travis- you want him back?

Marco Hernandez - you want him back?

 

How about pitchers?

Should we have stayed loyal to... (top innings pitchers from 2019)

ERod

Porcello

Sale

Price

Workman

Walden

Barnes

Hector Velazquez

 

Most of these guys suck or are out of baseball.

 

The ones we were loyal to are being bashed on a daily basis:

Sale

Barnes

Brasier

 

The 2019 team showed serious decline, because it had serious issues, including dead money/budget issues than Henry ordered cleaned up by the new GM.

 

When you trade away major league quality ball players and don’t get quality players to replace them you only have one direction to go, and trading Betts, Benintendi, Vasquez, when their contracts were up and DFA for Bradley doesn’t show any loyalty Betts wanted a lot, but Benny was making $867,000 and was asking for 4.5 million, we got winckowski, maybe a 4 or 5 starter in the future and Franchy, Benny turned into an all star, Vasquez was making 4.4 million, McGuire that they got to replace him is making $722,400 with control until 2026 he’s not better just cheaper, an organization that was loyal to its players would not have traded one away in the middle of the night and the other during an interview, and then threaten Bogaerts with a trade when he wanted to renegotiate, these tactics are not good for any team too flourish and can only alienate the players

[Old Red]

When you trade away major league quality ball players and don’t get quality players to replace them you only have one direction to go, and trading Betts, Benintendi, Vasquez, when their contracts were up and DFA for Bradley doesn’t show any loyalty Betts wanted a lot, but Benny was making $867,000 and was asking for 4.5 million, we got winckowski, maybe a 4 or 5 starter in the future and Franchy, Benny turned into an all star, Vasquez was making 4.4 million, McGuire that they got to replace him is making $722,400 with control until 2026 he’s not better just cheaper, an organization that was loyal to its players would not have traded one away in the middle of the night and the other during an interview, and then threaten Bogaerts with a trade when he wanted to renegotiate, these tactics are not good for any team too flourish and can only alienate the players

One thing that Bloom is Good at is alienating players in the clubhouse.

[Bellhorn04]

When you trade away major league quality ball players and don’t get quality players to replace them you only have one direction to go, and trading Betts, Benintendi, Vasquez, when their contracts were up and DFA for Bradley doesn’t show any loyalty Betts wanted a lot, but Benny was making $867,000 and was asking for 4.5 million, we got winckowski, maybe a 4 or 5 starter in the future and Franchy, Benny turned into an all star, Vasquez was making 4.4 million, McGuire that they got to replace him is making $722,400 with control until 2026 he’s not better just cheaper, an organization that was loyal to its players would not have traded one away in the middle of the night and the other during an interview, and then threaten Bogaerts with a trade when he wanted to renegotiate, these tactics are not good for any team too flourish and can only alienate the players

 

They threatened Bogaerts with a trade? Do you have a link to that story?

[Old Red]

They threatened Bogaerts with a trade? Do you have a link to that story?

 

Bogey had a no trade after the 2020 season, so I don’t think it would have been much of a threat.

[mvp 78]

They threatened Bogaerts with a trade? Do you have a link to that story?

 

Probably just Merloni hearsay.

[cp176]

Dave Dombrowski was with the Tigers for 14 seasons. They did not win any championships. They had a bunch of losing seasons during that time. Are we supposed to believe that he instantly became a much better GM when he came to the Red Sox? Or did he come into a much better situation? DD fans seem to want to dismiss the idea that the situation you come into has something to do with your chances of success...

 

I'm a DD fan but I don't think that I can be pigeon holed into one set mold.

[cp176]

I get the people who who go all in, and know all the stats of all the farm teams, but I guess you don’t get the ones who have no interest at all. I guess I’m in the middle who looks at the minor league box scores daily, but seeing Mayer hitting a HR In Greenville is good for Greenville, but has no value to the Sox unless he hits one in a Red Sox uniform.

 

This is pretty much how I feel. If there are exciting players to watch in Portland, I will on occasion go watch. I really do hope Casas is able to meet the high expectations of some posters here. Nothing is a given until they play with the big club.

[dgalehouse]

Bloom did not inherit a mess. He inherited Devers, Bogaerts , Martinez ,Vazquez , Sale , Eovaldi, Price, ERod and an outfield , known as the Killer B's , that was a pleasure to watch and featured one of the very best players in the game. What he has done with it has not been working . That is why many fans feel that it is time for a change.

[Bobe2]

They threatened Bogaerts with a trade? Do you have a link to that story?

 

Let’s see Bogarts wanted to renegotiate the team offered 1 year at the end of his contract for 30 mil he said no, next thing we know everyone is talking about the team trading him it got so bad even Rice, Pedro and Boris got involved I don’t understand why you didn’t hear this everyone else in New England heard about it, if Bogaerts opted out of his contract they would have let him leave and not negotiated

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bobe2

[Old Red]

Bloom did not inherit a mess. He inherited Devers, Bogaerts , Martinez ,Vazquez , Sale , Eovaldi, Price, ERod and an outfield , known as the Killer B's , that was a pleasure to watch and featured one of the very best players in the game. What he has done with it has not been working . That is why many fans feel that it is time for a change.

 

I don’t see how anyone can say the team is better today then what it was when Bloom took over.

[JDavis76]

I don’t see how anyone can say the team is better today then what it was when Bloom took over.

 

You mean you don't buy moon's spin?

[cp176]

The forum is really getting rich these days. Thanks for the entertainment. Can I be on someone's team? Everybody wants to be included somewhere. Much of the discussion here these days doesn't have much meaning for me. I'm far more interested in the way the game is actually played as opposed to constant rants about the people making the major decisions inspite of the fact that they don't play. I'm guessing that if this team was just a little bit entertaining to watch, there would actually be more discussion about how the bases are run, how the plays are made, stuff that happens on the field. If I didn't get a chuckle out of this forum, I don't think that I would even check the box score in the morning. So thanks guys and keep the good times rolling. by the way - not only am I a DD fan, I also think that JH could purchase just about anything that he wants to purchase. I still believe that there is a time to bunt, hit and run, in addition to stealing a base. Oh and I'm damned happy that Sale was signed to an extension and I think that you will be too. I also think that the people here who constantly go off about how DD ruined the farm are over doing it just a bit. Quantity does not make quality. He created a quality team by using the farm in one of the ways it is meant to be used. I liked all of his trades.

[moonslav59]

Bloom did not inherit a mess. He inherited Devers, Bogaerts , Martinez ,Vazquez , Sale , Eovaldi, Price, ERod and an outfield , known as the Killer B's , that was a pleasure to watch and featured one of the very best players in the game. What he has done with it has not been working . That is why many fans feel that it is time for a change.

 

Funny you mentioned Price and Sale his and their mega contracts as something not a mess.

 

ERod turned into a mess very quickly through no fault of Bloom. (Missed 2020, and thank God Bloom did not bring him back after his control ended.)

 

Plus, you named 11 names. The other 15 sucked or their time was up, and Bloom was given a negative budget sheet to fill those slots.

 

The oversimp0lification of the state of the team after 2019 is a blind spot for many Bloom bashers.

[Old Red]

Funny you mentioned Price and Sale his and their mega contracts as something not a mess.

 

ERod turned into a mess very quickly through no fault of Bloom. (Missed 2020, and thank God Bloom did not bring him back after his control ended.)

 

Plus, you named 11 names. The other 15 sucked or their time was up, and Bloom was given a negative budget sheet to fill those slots.

 

The oversimp0lification of the state of the team after 2019 is a blind spot for many Bloom bashers.

 

The Bloom Bashers have a blind spot, but Bloom’s (jock) supporters don’t? Pat yourself on the back even though you are wrong.

[Old Red]

The forum is really getting rich these days. Thanks for the entertainment. Can I be on someone's team? Everybody wants to be included somewhere. Much of the discussion here these days doesn't have much meaning for me. I'm far more interested in the way the game is actually played as opposed to constant rants about the people making the major decisions inspite of the fact that they don't play. I'm guessing that if this team was just a little bit entertaining to watch, there would actually be more discussion about how the bases are run, how the plays are made, stuff that happens on the field. If I didn't get a chuckle out of this forum, I don't think that I would even check the box score in the morning. So thanks guys and keep the good times rolling. by the way - not only am I a DD fan, I also think that JH could purchase just about anything that he wants to purchase. I still believe that there is a time to bunt, hit and run, in addition to stealing a base. Oh and I'm damned happy that Sale was signed to an extension and I think that you will be too. I also think that the people here who constantly go off about how DD ruined the farm are over doing it just a bit. Quantity does not make quality. He created a quality team by using the farm in one of the ways it is meant to be used. I liked all of his trades.

But Bloom’s supporters will tell you that the farm ranking wasn’t good enough, so Bloom had to make it better by add, add, add.

[Old Red]

You mean you don't buy moon's spin?

 

I think a majority of Red Sox fans don’t.