Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

We were leading 2-0 going into the bottom of the tenth, but my point all along has been when we were either tied, or ahead by 1, or 2 runs in the 8th, and 9th inning has not been good.

 

What is our record when tied or leading by 1 or 2 going into the 9th?

[Old Red]

OK. You asked ab out being ahead, and that's when traditional closers are used- usually when the game is close.

 

I don't think 23-4 and 26-3 is all that bad. It's not great, either, but it's not bad.

 

We do suck when we're tied. 3-4 in 8th, 0-5 in 9th, 1-6 in 10th, 0-1 in 11th.

 

Here is a look at other current playoff track teams

 

Ahead in 8th:

30-0 NYY

27-0 HOU

26-1 TOR

24-2 TBR

27-3 MIN

23-4 BOS

 

Ahead in 9th

31-0 NYY

31-0 HOU

28-1 TOR

27-1 MIN

24-2 TBR

26-3 BOS

 

Tied in 8th

7-3 NYY

5-3 HOU

4-3 TBR

3-4 BOS

3-6 TOR

2-3 MIN

 

Tied in 9th

4-2 NYY

4-3 TBR

2-2 HOU

2-2 MIN

2-4 TOR

0-5 BOS

 

Tied in 10th

2-1 NYY

1-1 HOU

1-2 TOR

1-2 MIN

1-6 BOS

 

Nobody is doubting we have had serious issues in the 8th, 9th and 10th, but I'm not sure it's as bad as you make it out to be. 26-3 with the lead in the 9th is pretty close to everyone else. It's just 1, 2 or 3 more losses than others and just 3 from perfection.

 

Good stats, but another bad stat I heard the other day, and I can’t remember what it was, but when were were trailing after 6, and I know it’s a different subject, but our record was real bad.

[Old Red]

OK. You asked ab out being ahead, and that's when traditional closers are used- usually when the game is close.

 

I don't think 23-4 and 26-3 is all that bad. It's not great, either, but it's not bad.

 

We do suck when we're tied. 3-4 in 8th, 0-5 in 9th, 1-6 in 10th, 0-1 in 11th.

 

Here is a look at other current playoff track teams

 

Ahead in 8th:

30-0 NYY

27-0 HOU

26-1 TOR

24-2 TBR

27-3 MIN

23-4 BOS

 

Ahead in 9th

31-0 NYY

31-0 HOU

28-1 TOR

27-1 MIN

24-2 TBR

26-3 BOS

 

Tied in 8th

7-3 NYY

5-3 HOU

4-3 TBR

3-4 BOS

3-6 TOR

2-3 MIN

 

Tied in 9th

4-2 NYY

4-3 TBR

2-2 HOU

2-2 MIN

2-4 TOR

0-5 BOS

 

Tied in 10th

2-1 NYY

1-1 HOU

1-2 TOR

1-2 MIN

1-6 BOS

 

Nobody is doubting we have had serious issues in the 8th, 9th and 10th, but I'm not sure it's as bad as you make it out to be. 26-3 with the lead in the 9th is pretty close to everyone else. It's just 1, 2 or 3 more losses than others and just 3 from perfection.

 

Once again great stats, and in the latest run of wins we haven’t had many games going into the 8th, or 9th with a 1,or 2 run lead, so I don’t think the problem of holding that lead has gone away.

[moonslav59]

Once again great stats, and in the latest run of wins we haven’t had many games going into the 8th, or 9th with a 1,or 2 run lead, so I don’t think the problem of holding that lead has gone away.

 

How is 26-3 all that bad?

[Old Red]

How is 26-3 all that bad?

 

I’m just saying I don’t think the back end of the BP has been fixed. 26-3 is good at first glance, but when you break it down like you did in 8th, 9th, and extra innings either being tied, or up 1, or 2 runs it not as good, so I guess it depends how you want to look at the stats. Half empty, or half full.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

I’m just saying I don’t think the back end of the BP has been fixed. 26-3 is good at first glance, but when you break it down like you did in 8th, 9th, and extra innings either being tied, or up 1, or 2 runs it not as good, so I guess it depends how you want to look at the stats. Half empty, or half full.

 

The back end of the pen has been horrible. I agree, and we don't know if it can be fixed with Houck or Schreiber/Strahm or someone else stepping up or into the role.

 

From what I'm hearing, it sounded like we have lost 7-10 games we were leading in the 9th, and it's only 3.

 

I get the fact that we are also 1-6 in extras, and that is on the pen, too, but usually not the closer, and often not even the top set-up guy, so I'm not sure the blame is being placed on the right part of the pen- not that it should matter, anyway. Our pen has been a significant factor in too many losses. There is no doubt about that.

 

Maybe we can have some hope Houck can fill the role.

 

Maybe we can have some hope that when Sale and or Paxton return, someone else can fill a hole or two in the pen, and stop the dumpster fires from happening so often.

 

When you look at the game by game results of the pen, there are many times they went long innings helping us win or keeping us in the game until the end- sometimes to just watch one guy ruin the rest of the pen's work, late in the game or in extra innings. The whole ghost runner thing also clouds the picture, to me.

 

I think everyone shares in the frustration and pain. It's obvious team management felt they had enough horses to carry us, at least to the deadline. The Sale injury messed things up, but plans should always be made to account for one starter to be out. Bloom & Co. had a similar looking pen, last winter, and it did well enough to get us close to a WS, Maybe they pushed their luck. Maybe they felt signing Wacha and Hill were more important than a top RP'er. Maybe they saw something in Diekman, I never saw. We also lost Taylor, who has been one of our best pen arms the last 1-2 years. They did okay with Strahm and claiming Schreiber off waivers. It just hasn't been enough. Too many failed, all at the same time. While greatness was not expected from many in this pen, this much failing was a bit unexpected, IMO.

 

I'm glad we signed Wacha, Hill and Strahm. The Diekman signing looks bad, right now, and the jury is still out on Story. IMO, there were only so many dollars to spend, and it looks like we had 1-2 too many holes to fill, or we spent too much on Story and JBJ to allow us to fill those other holes adequately.

 

Maybe Story will more than make up for the pen shortcomings over the rest of the season. Maybe Diekman, or Barnes, or someone steps it up. Maybe a deadline trades fixes the problem, just in time. There's still a lot of season to go.

 

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Bloom has done a nice job with the minor leagues. He hasn't excelled with the major league team so far, and that includes his shoddy work at last year's trade deadline, and he did too many weird things in the offseason: the poor bullpen, the losers in RF, the losers at 1b. This is all unacceptable, but Bloom can grow into the job and get better. I would never fire him at this point, but he hasn't proven himself as an elite GM either.

[Old Red]

The back end of the pen has been horrible. I agree, and we don't know if it can be fixed with Houck or Schreiber/Strahm or someone else stepping up or into the role.

 

From what I'm hearing, it sounded like we have lost 7-10 games we were leading in the 9th, and it's only 3.

 

I get the fact that we are also 1-6 in extras, and that is on the pen, too, but usually not the closer, and often not even the top set-up guy, so I'm not sure the blame is being placed on the right part of the pen- not that it should matter, anyway. Our pen has been a significant factor in too many losses. There is no doubt about that.

 

Maybe we can have some hope Houck can fill the role.

 

Maybe we can have some hope that when Sale and or Paxton return, someone else can fill a hole or two in the pen, and stop the dumpster fires from happening so often.

 

When you look at the game by game results of the pen, there are many times they went long innings helping us win or keeping us in the game until the end- sometimes to just watch one guy ruin the rest of the pen's work, late in the game or in extra innings. The whole ghost runner thing also clouds the picture, to me.

 

I think everyone shares in the frustration and pain. It's obvious team management felt they had enough horses to carry us, at least to the deadline. The Sale injury messed things up, but plans should always be made to account for one starter to be out. Bloom & Co. had a similar looking pen, last winter, and it did well enough to get us close to a WS, Maybe they pushed their luck. Maybe they felt signing Wacha and Hill were more important than a top RP'er. Maybe they saw something in Diekman, I never saw. We also lost Taylor, who has been one of our best pen arms the last 1-2 years. They did okay with Strahm and claiming Schreiber off waivers. It just hasn't been enough. Too many failed, all at the same time. While greatness was not expected from many in this pen, this much failing was a bit unexpected, IMO.

 

I'm glad we signed Wacha, Hill and Strahm. The Diekman signing looks bad, right now, and the jury is still out on Story. IMO, there were only so many dollars to spend, and it looks like we had 1-2 too many holes to fill, or we spent too much on Story and JBJ to allow us to fill those other holes adequately.

 

Maybe Story will more than make up for the pen shortcomings over the rest of the season. Maybe Diekman, or Barnes, or someone steps it up. Maybe a deadline trades fixes the problem, just in time. There's still a lot of season to go.

 

 

All that you say is true, and that if Sale hadn’t gotten hurt most likely both Houck, and Whitlock would be in the BP.Yes Bloom, and Co. had a similar looking pen last winter that got the team close to the WS, but the big difference was you had the good Barnes to start the season, and Whitlock who turned out to be a gem of a fine who was in the BP all year long. Having said that, and as close as the team got to the WS they were also one game away from not making the postseason at all, so every game counts, and these early season losses if only 3, or 4 can’t be made up. Someone on here said the Red Sox had two experienced closers in Barnes, and Robles to start the season, but they both sucked.Robles was signed late, because nobody else wanted him, so if Bloom was counting on Robles, and Barnes to be a closer especially how Barnes ended last year that to me wasn’t very sound baseball judgement. Yes there is still a lot of the season left, so we’ll see if those early season losses late in the games will cost the team in the standings. Remember one more loss last year, and the Sox don’t make the post season. They all count.

[cp176]

Bloom has done a nice job with the minor leagues. He hasn't excelled with the major league team so far, and that includes his shoddy work at last year's trade deadline, and he did too many weird things in the offseason: the poor bullpen, the losers in RF, the losers at 1b. This is all unacceptable, but Bloom can grow into the job and get better. I would never fire him at this point, but he hasn't proven himself as an elite GM either.

 

Bloom has played a role in adding many new young faces to our minor league programs. A few of our young pitchers are showing some good potential. I keep waiting for that first no brainer sure thing to hop off the page to impress and i don't see him though. We'll have to wait to see how these kids develop but just adding players who perform at an average level doesn't really mean much. Outside of those few pitchers whose names we know, the rest of the bunch at the AAA and AA level could be traded for a talent upgrade and I'm pretty sure that I would be ok with it. i enjoy watching the youth movement as much as anybody but at the higher levels I don't see any position players that I would consider to be a can't miss kind of prospect.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Bloom has played a role in adding many new young faces to our minor league programs. A few of our young pitchers are showing some good potential. I keep waiting for that first no brainer sure thing to hop off the page to impress and i don't see him though. We'll have to wait to see how these kids develop but just adding players who perform at an average level doesn't really mean much. Outside of those few pitchers whose names we know, the rest of the bunch at the AAA and AA level could be traded for a talent upgrade and I'm pretty sure that I would be ok with it. i enjoy watching the youth movement as much as anybody but at the higher levels I don't see any position players that I would consider to be a can't miss kind of prospect.

 

Agree with this post. Keep Bello and Mata because pure stuff with All-Star potential is rare.

 

My other untouchable right now is the unstoppable Rafaela. When a guy is stampeding through an organization, just get out of the way and watch. He may not be another Mookie, but he's been proving people wrong his entire life. Don't bet against guys like that, and certainly don't give up on them too soon.

[mvp 78]

I don't care about saves, but they have to get rid of blown saves. Giving a pen a blown save for allowing a tie run in the 6th inning is dumb. It causes brown diaper fans to wonder why their team doesn't have a true closer.

[Old Red]

I don't care about saves, but they have to get rid of blown saves. Giving a pen a blown save for allowing a tie run in the 6th inning is dumb. It causes brown diaper fans to wonder why their team doesn't have a true closer.

 

It’s very easy to see why the Red Sox don’t have a true closer, or any kind of closer for that matter. Can you say BLOOM? Also a third of the way into the season, and who knows what their role is in the bullpen outside of being in the bullpen. What kind of baseball strategy is that?

[mvp 78]

It’s very easy to see why the Red Sox don’t have a true closer, or any kind of closer for that matter. Can you say BLOOM? Also a third of the way into the season, and who knows what their role is in the bullpen outside of being in the bullpen. What kind of baseball strategy is that?

 

Aside from Strahm and Schreiber, the rest of the pen hasn't really earned any sort of defined role. They've been hot garbage.

[Old Red]

Aside from Strahm and Schreiber, the rest of the pen hasn't really earned any sort of defined role. They've been hot garbage.

 

Who’s responsible for the garbage dump?

[mvp 78]

Who’s responsible for the garbage dump?

 

Bloom, as I've said over and over. He's done a bad job with the pen and the OF.

[Old Red]

Bloom, as I've said over and over. He's done a bad job with the pen and the OF.

 

1B hasn’t been so great either to not have a veteran to back up Bobby D not named Shaw to start the season.

[mvp 78]

1B hasn’t been so great either to not have a veteran to back up Bobby D not named Shaw to start the season.

 

Ok, but it's been 3 straight years of weird decisions in the OF and the pen. Last year, 1b worked itself out. I think it could figure itself out again.

[Old Red]

Ok, but it's been 3 straight years of weird decisions in the OF and the pen. Last year, 1b worked itself out. I think it could figure itself out again.

 

Last year Bloom just threw things against the wall in the OF to see who stuck. Marwin, Franchy,and Duran pretty much sucked, and Kike after a slow start turned out well, along with Renfroe, so you’re right on about that. Bringing back JBJ, and putting Arroyo out there this year do not make much sense either.

[moonslav59]

I don't think Bloom had an adequate budget to fill every hole to the level of high competitiveness.

 

In hindsight, it's easy to say we could have shifted some of the resources used from here to there, but it might have just created a new hole somewhere else.

 

Bloom also chose not to use prospects as a resource to trade and improve some slots. He actually made trades that increased our prospects.

[notin]

1B hasn’t been so great either to not have a veteran to back up Bobby D not named Shaw to start the season.

 

After last year, Shaw earned another chance. He did post a .843 OPS for the Sox in 2021…

[notin]

Ok, but it's been 3 straight years of weird decisions in the OF and the pen. Last year, 1b worked itself out. I think it could figure itself out again.

 

What were last year’s weird decisions in the OF? The bulk of the season had Verdugo/Hernandez/Renfroe out there…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't think Bloom had an adequate budget to fill every hole to the level of high competitiveness.

 

 

Are you referring to going into 2021 or 2022? Let's put it this way: after the 2020 debacle, Marwin Gonzalez was the Red Sox '21 Opening Day leftfielder. And yet, there were some posters here who still predicted a 90 win club (but those being honest, was it because you thought Marwin -- not an outfielder, not a hitter -- was going to make the difference?).

 

As for '22, Bloom even said publicly he needed a righty-swinging outfielder. He still does... though I'd keep Franchy as a 5th outfielder, PH/PR off the pine. But how hard is it to find an actual first baseman to play first base... and bullpen depth - not depth charges.

 

Maybe they're waiting on making a move for when they go to Toronto at the end of the month -- when they'll have to, by Canadian law.

[Old Red]

What were last year’s weird decisions in the OF? The bulk of the season had Verdugo/Hernandez/Renfroe out there…

 

That’s how things ended up, but it was a spaghetti outfield for awhile.

[mvp 78]

What were last year’s weird decisions in the OF? The bulk of the season had Verdugo/Hernandez/Renfroe out there…

 

The plan at the start of the season was some combination of Cordero/Renfroe/Verdugo.

 

We can all say now: it was just Verdugo in LF, Kiké in CF and Renfroe in RF. Yes, that's how it shook out, but that's not how it was at the outset of the season. Through May 15, Verdugo had 21 appearances in CF. Verdugo should never play CF. He's slow and not a great defender. When Kiké was signed, they said it was mainly to be a 2b. The only person on here who was leading the charge to put him in CF was moon. The plan at the beginning of the season didn't make sense. They figured it out by mid May. They didn't have it figured out on April 1.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

The Renfroe trade was far from impressive. The Red Sox weakened themselves in RF and what for? Binelas is a decent prospect but he is in Single A hitting .231 with power; I like Binelas but I could live without him and would prefer Renfroe's 123 OPS+ over Bradley's incompetent 76 OPS+ and Arroyo sucks even more than Bradley.

 

If Binelas doesn't develop into a quality major league player, the Red Sox basically gave away Renfroe for free, since Bradley is largely useless, a fourth outfielder. And of course the Red Sox took on Bradley's contract, which is a massive overpay for a weak hitter.

[mvp 78]

The Renfroe trade was far from impressive. The Red Sox weakened themselves in RF and what for? Binelas is a decent prospect but he is in Single A hitting .231 with power; I like Binelas but I could live without him and would prefer Renfroe's 123 OPS+ over Bradley's incompetent 76 OPS+ and Arroyo sucks even more than Bradley.

 

If Binelas doesn't develop into a quality major league player, the Red Sox basically gave away Renfroe for free, since Bradley is largely useless, a fourth outfielder. And of course the Red Sox took on Bradley's contract, which is a massive overpay for a weak hitter.

 

Renfroe has been pretty useless while sitting on the IL since May 23. He's supposed to come back, but hamstring issues can linger. We'll see if his production dips at all.

[moonslav59]

The Renfroe trade was far from impressive. The Red Sox weakened themselves in RF and what for? Binelas is a decent prospect but he is in Single A hitting .231 with power; I like Binelas but I could live without him and would prefer Renfroe's 123 OPS+ over Bradley's incompetent 76 OPS+ and Arroyo sucks even more than Bradley.

 

If Binelas doesn't develop into a quality major league player, the Red Sox basically gave away Renfroe for free, since Bradley is largely useless, a fourth outfielder. And of course the Red Sox took on Bradley's contract, which is a massive overpay for a weak hitter.

 

It was just 1 year of Renfroe, but your point is well taken.

 

The scabs on my head are just starting to heal.

[Bellhorn04]

It was just 1 year of Renfroe, but your point is well taken.

 

The scabs on my head are just starting to heal.

 

Renfroe is under the Brewers' control this year and next.

 

He's making 7.5 mill this year and probably 10.5 or 11 next year.

 

This may turn out to be a minus trade, but it's unlikely to be a seriously bad one.

 

It was a major upgrade on defense.

[a700hitter]

Angels fired Joe Maddon! Another of my most disliked managers bites the dust. Two in the same week. I hope they stop recycling the likes of Maddon and Girardi.

[moonslav59]

Are you referring to going into 2021 or 2022?

 

Both.

 

Look at the roster that started 2020 vs 2021 vs the end of 2021 and now 2022. I see progression from a weak 18-22 slots on the 40 with a bottom 3 farm to a team with maybe 10-12 weak slots (winter 20-21) to maybe 8-10 (21-22), while the farm went from bottom 3 to middle or above average (props to DD, too.)

 

When you consider Bloom haD about $40M to spend on 2020 and again on 2021 with nothing long term and so many slots to fill, I think some serious context is needed, when exposing how he missed badly on Marwin, Andriese, Weber and even his "big ticket" items: Richards and Perez. Did you expect every low to mid-range sigtning to be Wacha?

 

I didn't. I expected slow growth and to me, we got way faster growth than I imagines possible. The jury is still out on the farm and some trades made, but I feel much better about our extended future than I did during and after 2019, when some posters were throwing around the "C" word, while those who denied it are often trying to blame Bloom for why he didn't win a ring, already.