Fire Bloom .

[Bellhorn04]

The fact is the Red Sox will have an absolutely atrocious rotation for 2024, unless the front office breaks down and does something about it.

[dgalehouse]

We are probably overreacting to last night's fiasco. But there is no question that there is a general malaise in Sox Nation. We can hear that the farm is looking better for just so long. This is /was a big-time organization. What we have been watching is not acceptable.

[Bellhorn04]

We are probably overreacting to last night's fiasco.

 

I wish that was true.

 

They've lost 5 in a row, giving up 46 runs in the process, and the staff is in shreds. Things are not going to get better when we play the AL East teams for weeks. This promises to be one of the ugliest stretches you'll ever see.

[illinoisredsox]

Next year is (supposedly) the last year of Bloom's contract.

 

He either needs to be:

 

1) extended now (or soon after the season) or

2) fired now (or soon after the season)

 

You can't have him running the team as a lame duck He could do serious short and long-term damage in that status.

 

I'm prefer option 2.

[Randy Red Sox]

Next year is (supposedly) the last year of Bloom's contract.

 

He either needs to be:

 

1) extended now (or soon after the season) or

2) fired now (or soon after the season)

 

 

You can't have him running the team as a lame duck He could do serious short and long-term damage in that status.

 

I'm prefer option 2.

 

you raise a very good point. I am pretty sure Henry will choose option 1 as Bloom has filled his mandate of lowering the payroll while remaining competitive.

[Randy Red Sox]

I wish that was true.

 

They've lost 5 in a row, giving up 46 runs in the process, and the staff is in shreds. Things are not going to get better when we play the AL East teams for weeks. This promises to be one of the ugliest stretches you'll ever see.

 

i actually think that once the Sox are truly out of it they will go a run of victories to lower their draft position and Bloom will select another HS with our first rd pick

[Maxbialystock]

I wish that was true.

 

They've lost 5 in a row, giving up 46 runs in the process, and the staff is in shreds. Things are not going to get better when we play the AL East teams for weeks. This promises to be one of the ugliest stretches you'll ever see.

 

Over on last night's game thread, I ask the question: is this Sox rotation tanking?

 

I do not for a moment think any of them is tired because Bello leads the team in IP with 131, and that ranks him 61st in MLB pitchers. Pivetta is 2d with 109 IP--89th.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I wish that was true.

 

They've lost 5 in a row, giving up 46 runs in the process, and the staff is in shreds. Things are not going to get better when we play the AL East teams for weeks. This promises to be one of the ugliest stretches you'll ever see.

 

Promises. This is why also-ran teams traditionally play minor league call-ups as much as possible every September -- because rookie prospects have absolutely something to prove, with an eye on something to earn.

 

Veterans have their eyes on golf, fishing, beaches...

 

Fans know this, so want to see more of Rafaela and Abreu

[Old Red]

We are probably overreacting to last night's fiasco. But there is no question that there is a general malaise in Sox Nation. We can hear that the farm is looking better for just so long. This is /was a big-time organization. What we have been watching is not acceptable.

 

If it was just last night’s fiasco it would be one thing, but add it to Monday’s fiasco, and the recent 1-5 home stand, and I think it is a lot more than general malaise in Sox Nation. General malaise is way to mild to describe with what’s out there.

[dgalehouse]

I wish that was true.

 

They've lost 5 in a row, giving up 46 runs in the process, and the staff is in shreds. Things are not going to get better when we play the AL East teams for weeks. This promises to be one of the ugliest stretches you'll ever see.

 

Well, it's baseball. You never can tell. The A.L. East teams all have some problems right now. (I am trying hard, maybe too hard.)

[jad]

Next year is (supposedly) the last year of Bloom's contract.

 

He either needs to be:

 

1) extended now (or soon after the season) or

2) fired now (or soon after the season)

 

You can't have him running the team as a lame duck He could do serious short and long-term damage in that status.

 

I'm prefer option 2.

 

Maybe RS could trade him for a bunch of prospects.

[Duran Is The Man]

Without knowing who would buy the team from JH and what they would do on spending, I'd say, "Be careful what you wish for."

 

I happen to think JH spends in cycles and will, again, but this has been a long stretch and we have reached a spending ranking lower than we've seen in decades and decades. I'm concerned, too.

 

Honestly, though, I'd like you and others to answer this:

 

If you had to guess who is responsible for not spending right up to the tax line to improve our chances in 2023, who would you say it is?

 

Bloom?

 

JH and the leadership group?

 

I just can't imagine a GM being given $6-10M or whatever it is to spend and choosing not to use it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

 

 

i'm guessing you think it's JH being the tight wad. i have no idea. but....if it is JH, then yeah, i'd like an owner who isn't afraid to spend some money. a multi-billionaire afraid to spend $6-10M. AYSM?? sure, he's spent $$$ in the past but maybe he's changed. and as far as Bloom spending or not spending $6-10M, i'm of the belief that he's so incompetent that it is certainly within the realm of possibility that he didn't for whatever idiotic reason.

[Bellhorn04]

Over on last night's game thread, I ask the question: is this Sox rotation tanking?

 

I do not for a moment think any of them is tired because Bello leads the team in IP with 131, and that ranks him 61st in MLB pitchers. Pivetta is 2d with 109 IP--89th.

 

I gave my answer in the game thread.

[illinoisredsox]

Promises. This is why also-ran teams traditionally play minor league call-ups as much as possible every September -- because rookie prospects have absolutely something to prove, with an eye on something to earn.

 

Veterans have their eyes on golf, fishing, beaches...

 

Fans know this, so want to see more of Rafaela and Abreu

 

September call-ups don’t work the way they used to. Teams used to be able to call up their entire 40 man roster if they wanted to. Some teams called up a couple players, some called up 10 or more.

 

That is no longer the case. Starting September 1, every team must maintain a 28 man roster with a max of 14 pitchers. Those extra 2 players can be swapped with other minor league guys over the course of the month, but you no longer have endless options on the bench or in the pen.

 

If you want to give a bunch of rookie playing time to show what they’ve got, you have to do what the Angels did and DFA multiple veterans.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

September call-ups don’t work the way they used to. Teams used to be able to call up their entire 40 man roster if they wanted to. Some teams called up a couple players, some called up 10 or more.

 

That is no longer the case. Starting September 1, every team must maintain a 28 man roster with a max of 14 pitchers. Those extra 2 players can be swapped with other minor league guys over the course of the month, but you no longer have endless options on the bench or in the pen.

 

If you want to give a bunch of rookie playing time to show what they’ve got, you have to do what the Angels did and DFA multiple veterans.

 

Good point -- bring them up at the end of August. A young guy could start off hot vs. pitchers challenging him, which could keep fans watching, hopeful for the future... before analytic depts distribute a book on the kid.

[Dipre]

Good point -- bring them up at the end of August. A young guy could start off hot vs. pitchers challenging him, which could keep fans watching, hopeful for the future... before analytic depts distribute a book on the kid.

 

Oh, the book on guys is on hand before they ever reach the Majors.

[moonslav59]

Improvements in the rankings doesn’t necessarily mean a trip to the WS, or even the postseason for that matter, which is the hope beyond hope on here.

 

Of course, it isn't, but be honest: isn't it much easier to build a WS team or contender when you have a steady flow of low cost contributing players filling in many slots on your 26 and 40 man roster?

 

Asking a GM to go into a winter with 18-20 slots to fill and a limited budget, like Bloom was handed to start his tenure is an impossible task when you also get zero help from the farm.

Year two he had 12-14 slots to fill, a little bigger winter budget and one guy- Houck added from the farm (OK, your fave, Dalbec, too.)

Year three he had it down to 7-9 slots to fill a bigger budget and some late arrivals from the farm, like Bello & Casas.

Year four he saw a lot of salary lost, a pretty significant budget to work with and the beginning of Bello and Casas muturity, plus a surprise from Duran and Crawford, and it still was far from enough.

 

We may never reach the point where our farm provides enough so that JH and whatever our GM is, only has to fill 3-6 slots every winter with outside additions via trades or FA signings. You are right. There is no guarantee, but what other plan is better? Should we count on only buying players via free agency, like the NYM and SDP?

 

Should we empty the farm by trade, this winter?

 

What is your idea of the best hope?

 

To me, startin with a strong farm is the best way to get started.

[moonslav59]

i'm guessing you think it's JH being the tight wad. i have no idea. but....if it is JH, then yeah, i'd like an owner who isn't afraid to spend some money. a multi-billionaire afraid to spend $6-10M. AYSM?? sure, he's spent $$$ in the past but maybe he's changed. and as far as Bloom spending or not spending $6-10M, i'm of the belief that he's so incompetent that it is certainly within the realm of possibility that he didn't for whatever idiotic reason.

 

I'm not saying it's beyond a chance Bloom just chose not to spend some money he was allowed to spend.

 

His reasoning might have been that no deal seemed worth it in the long run, so he didn't bother to make one or two more winter or summer deals or winter signings.

 

I do think Bloom was unfairly criticized for the early tenure situations, including the Betts/Price trade, and the discontent built up to a point where this year's collapse has caused more harsh criticism than PERHAPS he deserves.

 

Even with the $6-10M left on the table, and saying that's on JH still does not excuse what happened this year. Bloom chose to focus more money on the pen and starting line-up than the rotation. Perhaps he never had enough to fix them all enough for us to be big playoff contenders, but we all saw the rotation being neglected beyond reason. He should not be let off the hook for that,

 

Had we not signed Duvall and gotten 2 pictures, instead, even if they failed, I'd have felt better about the attempt.

 

I'm not happy with that major choice made. I felt like last winter was Bloom's "make or break" and "legacy" winter, and I have not changed my position on that. While I don't think JH & Co. see last winter like I did, they must not be happy with all he spent on these results. Sure, our spending has dropped from top 3-5 to 12th t0 15th, but we are still spending, and we lost some deadwood money, like Price, and the only deadwood money left is Sale and maybe some guys Bloom has recently signed, like maye Story and Yoshida.

 

I think Bloom will get another year, but if we suck, again, I can't see any justification keeping him around, unless they have viewed this as a 7-8 year rebuild process, which I doubt has even been discussed.

[oldtimer]

Of course, it isn't, but be honest: isn't it much easier to build a WS team or contender when you have a steady flow of low cost contributing players filling in many slots on your 26 and 40 man roster?

 

Asking a GM to go into a winter with 18-20 slots to fill and a limited budget, like Bloom was handed to start his tenure is an impossible task when you also get zero help from the farm.

Year two he had 12-14 slots to fill, a little bigger winter budget and one guy- Houck added from the farm (OK, your fave, Dalbec, too.)

Year three he had it down to 7-9 slots to fill a bigger budget and some late arrivals from the farm, like Bello & Casas.

Year four he saw a lot of salary lost, a pretty significant budget to work with and the beginning of Bello and Casas muturity, plus a surprise from Duran and Crawford, and it still was far from enough.

 

We may never reach the point where our farm provides enough so that JH and whatever our GM is, only has to fill 3-6 slots every winter with outside additions via trades or FA signings. You are right. There is no guarantee, but what other plan is better? Should we count on only buying players via free agency, like the NYM and SDP?

 

Should we empty the farm by trade, this winter?

 

What is your idea of the best hope?

 

To me, startin with a strong farm is the best way to get started.

 

Our farm system was weakened under Dombrowski as he tried to trade for or buy major league ready players. We also spent more freely during his tenure. His approach can look good for a year or two but with good results we also got poor slots in the draft selection process so our farm was weak when Bloom came in. The Sox also have a poor record in the pitcher development area, so we have paid a price for that as well.

 

Bloom has made some unwise moves as well. Renfroe, Kluber, not getting below the salary tax cap the year before are examples. I haven't seen a consistent plan from him but admit to not knowing all the issues which confront him. I do agree that maintaining a strong farm is critical to maintaining consistent excellence. I'd like to see an emphasis on bringing at least 1/2 our input from the minors to be pitchers.

 

Wise decisions from the front office are also critical. There has been some wise and some unwise during Bloom's tenure. I also agree that he is now in the situation of produce or be gone. We need to be patient, but there is a limit and we should give him only one more try.

[moonslav59]

Our farm system was weakened under Dombrowski as he tried to trade for or buy major league ready players. We also spent more freely during his tenure. His approach can look good for a year or two but with good results we also got poor slots in the draft selection process so our farm was weak when Bloom came in. The Sox also have a poor record in the pitcher development area, so we have paid a price for that as well.

 

Bloom has made some unwise moves as well. Renfroe, Kluber, not getting below the salary tax cap the year before are examples. I haven't seen a consistent plan from him but admit to not knowing all the issues which confront him. I do agree that maintaining a strong farm is critical to maintaining consistent excellence. I'd like to see an emphasis on bringing at least 1/2 our input from the minors to be pitchers.

 

Wise decisions from the front office are also critical. There has been some wise and some unwise during Bloom's tenure. I also agree that he is now in the situation of produce or be gone. We need to be patient, but there is a limit and we should give him only one more try.

 

I agree on the lack of improving the development of pitchers. I'm not sure if the arrivals of Houck, Whitlock, Crawford, Wink and Bello is some signal things are improving, but it might be.

 

I think there has been one very consistent plan from the start, under Bloom- the build up of teh farm and young player foundation on the 26.

 

His highest ranked player traded was Aldo Ramirez (Schwarber)

 

Nearly every significant trade, even the ones for vets, included prospects coming with the vet.

Wong and Downs with Dugo

Seabold with Pivetta

Wink, Gambrell and others with Franchy

German with Ottavino

DHam & Binelas with JBJ

Not to mention all the straight vets for prospects deals, including:

Abreu & EValdez for Vaz

 

It's the one consistent and almost always followed plan or priority in Bloom's 4 years plus the last year of DD'd reign.

 

 

 

[Randy Red Sox]

Of course, it isn't, but be honest: isn't it much easier to build a WS team or contender when you have a steady flow of low cost contributing players filling in many slots on your 26 and 40 man roster?

 

Asking a GM to go into a winter with 18-20 slots to fill and a limited budget, like Bloom was handed to start his tenure is an impossible task when you also get zero help from the farm.

Year two he had 12-14 slots to fill, a little bigger winter budget and one guy- Houck added from the farm (OK, your fave, Dalbec, too.)

Year three he had it down to 7-9 slots to fill a bigger budget and some late arrivals from the farm, like Bello & Casas.

Year four he saw a lot of salary lost, a pretty significant budget to work with and the beginning of Bello and Casas muturity, plus a surprise from Duran and Crawford, and it still was far from enough.

 

We may never reach the point where our farm provides enough so that JH and whatever our GM is, only has to fill 3-6 slots every winter with outside additions via trades or FA signings. You are right. There is no guarantee, but what other plan is better? Should we count on only buying players via free agency, like the NYM and SDP?

 

Should we empty the farm by trade, this winter?

 

What is your idea of the best hope?

 

To me, startin with a strong farm is the best way to get started.

 

it is obvious the route Henry has directed Bloom to follow. Build the farm system, reduce the payroll by signing veteran guys to 1-2 yr deals.

[moonslav59]

it is obvious the route Henry has directed Bloom to follow. Build the farm system, reduce the payroll by signing veteran guys to 1-2 yr deals.

 

Except for 3 long term deals signed in the last 16 months.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Except for 3 long term deals signed in the last 16 months.

 

None of them at the position of importance considered by the Baseball Research Journal as "somewhere between 75 and 90 percent of baseball.”

[Bellhorn04]

None of them at the position of importance considered by the Baseball Research Journal as "somewhere between 75 and 90 percent of baseball.”

 

Bloom denies and defies it!

[moonslav59]

None of them at the position of importance considered by the Baseball Research Journal as "somewhere between 75 and 90 percent of baseball.”

 

To me, that has been the biggest "mistake," but I also see the wisdom of waiting to sign a top FA, until the last moment right before you think the window is open.

 

Had we thought the window was going to be 2024-2027, for example, why sign a 31 year old stud pitcher back in 2021?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

To me, that has been the biggest "mistake," but I also see the wisdom of waiting to sign a top FA, until the last moment right before you think the window is open.

 

Had we thought the window was going to be 2024-2027, for example, why sign a 31 year old stud pitcher back in 2021?

 

Here goes: an ace pitcher sets the tone for any club, giving it the confidence that there's a good chance for a W, every five days, all season, providing consistent quality starts and "quantity" starts -- eating innings and keeping scores close (even on days he doesn't have his best stuff), giving the bullpen a breather and preserving relief arms from burn-out that comes from bad or thin rotations, resulting in too much bulk-guy/opener/high leverage overuse.

 

An ace can also share with his pitching staff experiences that made him successful, such as work-outs, routines, pitch grips, books on hitters, umps, etc. Because he throws many above-average shutdown innings and outings, his supporting cast has less pressure to press, on defense and offense. His own batters can relax at the plate, knowing they don't all have to hit grand slams to outscore opponents, and because he throws so many strikes, the defense stays alert and on its toes.

 

An ace makes any team better -- and for fans, better to watch -- and if there's no window open yet, watch out... because if he can't create a window by firing fastballs through the wall, maybe his grateful teammates will bash one open with their Old Hickory sledge hammers.

[Randy Red Sox]

I'm not saying it's beyond a chance Bloom just chose not to spend some money he was allowed to spend.

 

His reasoning might have been that no deal seemed worth it in the long run, so he didn't bother to make one or two more winter or summer deals or winter signings.

 

I do think Bloom was unfairly criticized for the early tenure situations, including the Betts/Price trade, and the discontent built up to a point where this year's collapse has caused more harsh criticism than PERHAPS he deserves.

 

Even with the $6-10M left on the table, and saying that's on JH still does not excuse what happened this year. Bloom chose to focus more money on the pen and starting line-up than the rotation. Perhaps he never had enough to fix them all enough for us to be big playoff contenders, but we all saw the rotation being neglected beyond reason. He should not be let off the hook for that,

 

Had we not signed Duvall and gotten 2 pictures, instead, even if they failed, I'd have felt better about the attempt.

 

I'm not happy with that major choice made. I felt like last winter was Bloom's "make or break" and "legacy" winter, and I have not changed my position on that. While I don't think JH & Co. see last winter like I did, they must not be happy with all he spent on these results. Sure, our spending has dropped from top 3-5 to 12th t0 15th, but we are still spending, and we lost some deadwood money, like Price, and the only deadwood money left is Sale and maybe some guys Bloom has recently signed, like maye Story and Yoshida.

 

I think Bloom will get another year, but if we suck, again, I can't see any justification keeping him around, unless they have viewed this as a 7-8 year rebuild process, which I doubt has even been discussed.

 

Story is quickly starting to look like dead money.

[moonslav59]

Here goes: an ace pitcher sets the tone for any club, giving it the confidence that there's a good chance for a W, every five days, all season, providing consistent quality starts and "quantity" starts -- eating innings and keeping scores close (even on days he doesn't have his best stuff), giving the bullpen a breather and preserving relief arms from burn-out that comes from bad or thin rotations, resulting in too much bulk-guy/opener/high leverage overuse.

 

An ace can also share with his pitching staff experiences that made him successful, such as work-outs, routines, pitch grips, books on hitters, umps, etc. Because he throws many above-average shutdown innings and outings, his supporting cast has less pressure to press, on defense and offense. His own batters can relax at the plate, knowing they don't all have to hit grand slams to outscore opponents, and because he throws so many strikes, the defense stays alert and on its toes.

 

An ace makes any team better -- and for fans, better to watch -- and if there's no window open yet, watch out... because if he can't create a window by firing fastballs through the wall, maybe his grateful teammates will bash one open with their Old Hickory sledge hammers.

 

I'm all about adding to the top of the rotation and never from the bottom. Signing a #5 is a waste, unless you plan on him being your #6 or rotation depth.

 

The point about the "wisdom" of waiting is from a top brass budget angle. It's a waste to sign a $30M pitcher for a team destined to miss the playoffs, anyway.

 

Offense is more exciting for fans of losing teams or .500 teams.

 

I fully understand the value of having at least 2 beasts of burden at the top of a rotation. One is never enough.

 

Right now, we have none.

 

[Randy Red Sox]

I'm all about adding to the top of the rotation and never from the bottom. Signing a #5 is a waste, unless you plan on him being your #6 or rotation depth.

 

The point about the "wisdom" of waiting is from a top brass budget angle. It's a waste to sign a $30M pitcher for a team destined to miss the playoffs, anyway.

 

Offense is more exciting for fans of losing teams or .500 teams.

 

I fully understand the value of having at least 2 beasts of burden at the top of a rotation. One is never enough.

 

Right now, we have none.

 

 

Bello is on his way developing to be one. Yamamoto should be the other and if Bloom had been doing his job we would would have another young SP on the cusp.

[moonslav59]

Bello is on his way developing to be one. Yamamoto should be the other and if Bloom had been doing his job we would would have another young SP on the cusp.

 

You mean from the worst pitcher development system in the universe?

 

BTW, Bello is not a beast of burden, yet. I doubt he gets over 190 IP in 2024, but I like him a lot.

 

We need two 200 IP studs.