Big Papi, Hall of Famer

[notin]

Not sure it even warrants a mention with all the blow Strawberry and Gooden did in the 80's.

 

Or the rest of MLB. The rampant cocaine abuse back then lead to the steroid ban, as illegal steroids were just rolled into the MLB policy for illegal drugs.

 

Gooden and Strawberry were certainly big offenders, but four members of the Kansas City Royals (Willie Wilson, Willie Aikens, Vida Blue and Jerry Martin) spent an off-season in jail in cocaine charges back then. And during the famous Pittsburgh Drug Trials in the late 80s, members of the Pirates (including the late Rod Scurry) testified to meeting dealers and using coke during games. Steve Howe admitted to using cocaine in the bullpen during games and was received multiple lifetime suspensions. And Hall of Famer Tim Raines testified in court that he used to slide into bases head first because he had glass vials of cocaine in his back pocket.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Or the rest of MLB. The rampant cocaine abuse back then lead to the steroid ban, as illegal steroids were just rolled into the MLB policy for illegal drugs.

 

Gooden and Strawberry were certainly big offenders, but four members of the Kansas City Royals (Willie Wilson, Willie Aikens, Vida Blue and Jerry Martin) spent an off-season in jail in cocaine charges back then. And during the famous Pittsburgh Drug Trials in the late 80s, members of the Pirates (including the late Rod Scurry) testified to meeting dealers and using coke during games. Steve Howe admitted to using cocaine in the bullpen during games and was received multiple lifetime suspensions. And Hall of Famer Tim Raines testified in court that he used to slide into bases head first because he had glass vials of cocaine in his back pocket.

 

Ironic that so many careers and thus teams were disrupted or destroyed by this addiction -- even lives, as you mention -- and yet, fans and writers care way more about the scandal that immediately followed, when players were trying to enhance performances on the field (and not after the games).

 

I can't recall this drug usage affecting votes for the Hall, either, except that it certainly prevented further achievements and probable enshrinement for guys like Gooden, Parker, etc. Still, Raines made it in, most likely because he had a mentor like Andre Dawson help him kick the habit...

[mvp 78]

Ironic that so many careers and thus teams were disrupted or destroyed by this addiction -- even lives, as you mention -- and yet, fans and writers care way more about the scandal that immediately followed, when players were trying to enhance performances on the field (and not after the games).

 

I can't recall this drug usage affecting votes for the Hall, either, except that it certainly prevented further achievements and probable enshrinement for guys like Gooden, Parker, etc. Still, Raines made it in, most likely because he had a mentor like Andre Dawson help him kick the habit...

 

Gooden really doesn't have the career numbers to get into the HOF, similar to Lincecum. However, I think the Cobra, Dave Parker should be in.

[jacksonianmarch]

It wasn’t cheating if there wasn’t testing. We have no idea how many people were on roids in the 80s-00s until testing started. No proof. And Manfred admitted they were testing for non-banned supplements in the 03 survey. You cannot indict a 25 year span and keep them all out of the HOF.

[jacksonianmarch]

7 of the top 27 HR hitters of all time (all over 500) are being held out of the hall for steroid use. Only two failed a drug test, Palmeiro and Manny. One was suspended for a year (ARod) but he never failed a test. The idea that we aren’t looking at the steroid era similar to the spitball era is baffling to me.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It wasn’t cheating if there wasn’t testing. We have no idea how many people were on roids in the 80s-00s until testing started. No proof. And Manfred admitted they were testing for non-banned supplements in the 03 survey. You cannot indict a 25 year span and keep them all out of the HOF.

 

The best players from the era will all get in, eventually. There are now at least five guys with plaques already whose bodies and stats both grew proportionately, as well as others whose careers overlapped and extended during that time -- old men throwing no-hitters or playing every single inning of every single game.

 

Rules or not, the users -- as well as fans and writers -- all know what they were doing was giving them an unfair advantage.

 

Harold Baines said something interesting the other day on MLB channel... to paraphrase: it really became noticeable in the dog days of August, when mere mortals are always dragging and banged up... and suddenly, vets were showing up with renewed energy.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Gooden really doesn't have the career numbers to get into the HOF, similar to Lincecum. However, I think the Cobra, Dave Parker should be in.

 

My point was that Gooden was on a Hall of Fame track when his career started -- arguably the greatest teen pitcher of the century (record Ks, FIP), definitely the greatest 20-year old of all-time -- before unhealthy lifestyles derailed his career.

[dgalehouse]

We have no idea how widespread the steroid use was at that time. And not just in baseball either. Drug use was also rampant , and sadly still is throughout society. As far as the Hall of Fame is concerned, I think the players should be evaluated strictly on their accomplishments. And it is usually a mistake to put any athlete or public figure on a pedestal . Our heroes very often have feet of clay.

[Bellhorn04]

We have no idea how widespread the steroid use was at that time. And not just in baseball either. Drug use was also rampant , and sadly still is throughout society. As far as the Hall of Fame is concerned, I think the players should be evaluated strictly on their accomplishments. And it is usually a mistake to put any athlete or public figure on a pedestal . Our heroes very often have feet of clay.

 

Sure they do. They're human beings. We all have feet of clay, really.

[dgalehouse]

Sure they do. They're human beings. We all have feet of clay, really.

 

Very true. I do think pro athletes have the money , the fame , the time , the opportunity and the temptations to indulge in the " forbidden fruits" . Probably more so than the average working stiff. And nobody is putting that working stiff on a pedestal. We shouldn't put the athletes on a pedestal either. Not even our favorites.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

We shouldn't put the athletes on a pedestal either. Not even our favorite...

 

... wives. I put one on a pedestal once, and now she has a walk-in closet full of shoes.

[dgalehouse]

... wives. I put one on a pedestal once, and now she has a walk-in closet full of shoes.

 

Well , it could be worse.

[notin]

... wives. I put one on a pedestal once, and now she has a walk-in closet full of shoes.

 

You only put her on a pedestal so you could look up her skirt…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You only put her on a pedestal so you could look up her skirt…

 

That doesn't excuse 65 pairs of shoes in the closet. On Footwear-reference.com, her WARpath is 130.

[Bellhorn04]

That doesn't excuse 65 pairs of shoes in the closet. On Footwear-reference.com, her WARpath is 130.

 

But any comps to the great Imelda Marcos are probably a little premature.

[mvp 78]

But any comps to the great Imelda Marcos are probably a little premature.

 

The OG Girl Boss

[yeszir]

I don't care what anyone says, the Manny Ramirez / David Ortiz Red Sox were the best Red Sox

[moonslav59]

I don't care what anyone says, the Manny Ramirez / David Ortiz Red Sox were the best Red Sox

 

Hard to argue, except maybe 2018.

[Tedballgame]

I don't care what anyone says, the Manny Ramirez / David Ortiz Red Sox were the best Red Sox

 

Although 2018 team was great, and 2007 and 2013 teams were also very good, the 2004 team will go down as the best team in Red Sox history not only for the talent on the team but for how they ended the curse.

[moonslav59]

I'm not saying fWAR should decide which Sox team was the best, but here are some numbers from 2004-2018:

 

Best fWAR (batting + fielding)

36.3 2011

36.2 2013

35.2 2016

32.9 2008

32.2 2018

29.7 2007

27.6 2005

24.9 2010

24.7 2004

24.4 2009

 

(wRC+: 117 in 2011, 114 in 2013 & 2004, 113 in 2016, 112 in 2005, 111 in 2018, 110 in 2008 and 109 in 2007 & 2010.)

 

Pitching fWAR:

23.2 2017

20.6 2004

18.8 2016

18.5 2018 & 2009

18.4 2007 & 2008

15.8 2013

15.7 2010

 

Add together:

52.0 2013

50.7 2018

48.1 2007

45.3 2004 (Best pitching)

 

[mvp 78]

I don't care what anyone says, the Manny Ramirez / David Ortiz Red Sox were the best Red Sox

 

It could have been a dynasty, but they couldn't figure out the pitching rotation in 2005 and 2006.

 

2003 - 2007 could be the most important 5 year stretch in Sox history.

[moonslav59]

It could have been a dynasty, but they couldn't figure out the pitching rotation in 2005 and 2006.

 

2003 - 2007 could be the most important 5 year stretch in Sox history.

 

That was certainly the best 5 year stretch in Sox history, at least post Babe Ruth.

 

We came so close in 2003.

 

here are the highest Sox fWAR teams from 2003-2018:

 

54.1 2003 & 2016

52.0 2013

51.3 2008

50.7 2018

50.6 2011

48.1 2007

45.3 2004

( I hope I added these numbers correctly. I was rushed.)

[Old Red]

The 1975 team was pretty damm good in their own right. They didn’t win a WS, but stopped the A’s run of 3 championships in a row, and almost took down the Big Red Machine without Rice who was hurt at the time.

[moonslav59]

The 1975 team was pretty damm good in their own right. They didn’t win a WS, but stopped the A’s run of 3 championships in a row, and almost took down the Big Red Machine without Rice who was hurt at the time.

 

That was my favorite team. I was just a teenager, and it was such an exciting time and experience. The heart break was pretty rough, but what a team.

 

Luis Tiant

Bill Lee

Burleson

Lynn

Rice

Evans

Fisk

Carbo, Cooper, Doyle & Griffin

Roger Moret

 

Only 10 pitchers had more than 7 IP! They only used 12 all year (2 for 11 IP combined!)

Lee, Tiant and Wise all had 255+ IP

[dgalehouse]

The 2018 team was probably the most dominant , the closet to being the total package. But the 2004 team will always be the most special because of what they accomplished. I will say this: Thank God that Dave Roberts wasn't picked off or they would have been swept and Red Sox history would have been put on hold.

[mvp 78]

The 2018 team was probably the most dominant , the closet to being the total package. But the 2004 team will always be the most special because of what they accomplished. I will say this: Thank God that Dave Roberts wasn't picked off or they would have been swept and Red Sox history would have been put on hold.

 

If they lose, how does that change the 2004 offseason? Do they re-sign Lowe and Pedro?

[Old Red]

 

That was my favorite team. I was just a teenager, and it was such an exciting time and experience. The heart break was pretty rough, but what a team.

 

Luis Tiant

Bill Lee

Burleson

Lynn

Rice

Evans

Fisk

Carbo, Cooper, Doyle & Griffin

Roger Moret

 

Only 10 pitchers had more than 7 IP! They only used 12 all year (2 for 11 IP combined!)

Lee, Tiant and Wise all had 255+ IP

 

The Cardiac Kids the 1967 team was my favorite team. The 2018 team may have been the most dominant, and the 2004 team the most special for breaking the curse, but this 1975 team had to go through more tougher competition, and came up short. Beating the three time WS Champions Oakland A’s, and taking the Big Red Machine to the final inning of the 7th game was to much to overcome, and the curse lasted another 29 years. It’s always hard to compare on who was the best team at any given time, because there are too many variables then goes into it, and favorite teams are sometimes anointed as a best team.

[dgalehouse]

 

The Cardiac Kids the 1967 team was my favorite team. The 2018 team may have been the most dominant, and the 2004 team the most special for breaking the curse, but this 1975 team had to go through more tougher competition, and came up short. Beating the three time WS Champions Oakland A’s, and taking the Big Red Machine to the final inning of the 7th game was to much to overcome, and the curse lasted another 29 years. It’s always hard to compare on who was the best team at any given time, because there are too many variables then goes into it, and favorite teams are sometimes anointed as a best team.

It's kind of like asking , " Which of your children do you like best " ? The 2018 team did win 108 games in the regular season , then went 11 - 3 in the post season against the Yankees , Astros and Dodgers , three very strong teams in their own right. That said , the 2004 team will always have a special place in Sox history. That can never be topped.

[moonslav59]

 

The Cardiac Kids the 1967 team was my favorite team. The 2018 team may have been the most dominant, and the 2004 team the most special for breaking the curse, but this 1975 team had to go through more tougher competition, and came up short. Beating the three time WS Champions Oakland A’s, and taking the Big Red Machine to the final inning of the 7th game was to much to overcome, and the curse lasted another 29 years. It’s always hard to compare on who was the best team at any given time, because there are too many variables then goes into it, and favorite teams are sometimes anointed as a best team.

 

I became a Sox fan in 1972, so the '67 season was not part of my life.

 

Great season, though! I can see how that one tops 1075 for many older Sox fans.

[Bellhorn04]

It's kind of like asking , " Which of your children do you like best " ? The 2018 team did win 108 games in the regular season , then went 11 - 3 in the post season against the Yankees , Astros and Dodgers , three very strong teams in their own right. That said , the 2004 team will always have a special place in Sox history. That can never be topped.

 

Yeah, I'd have to say the 2004 team is the most special of the special.

 

Not only breaking the drought, but beating the Yankees in miraculous fashion.

 

And just an amazing group of players.