2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[moonslav59]

Oh we're back to that offseason. Scherzer and Cruz were clearly the best players the Sox could have added, and I am still mystified to this day we threw money at Hanley and Panda instead.

 

Even worse, the contract comp:

 

Per year...

 

Scherzer ($30M)+ Cruz ($14.5M)= $44.5M

 

HRam ($22M) + Pablo ($19M)= $41MM

 

Only $3.5M per year more!

 

Now, the total contracts:

 

Scherzer (7 yrs) + Cruz (4 yrs)= $268M

 

Pablo (5 yrs) + HRam (4 yrs)= $183M

 

Okay, there's a big difference, here, but Scherzer has stayed strong through the first 6 yrs. Pablo & HRam gave us 1.5 years of decent play,combined.

 

[kenmeister]

That's why I was okay with Ben being fired. It wasn't just that he brought in two duds, it's also that he passed over some great players.

 

*****************

 

January 12th and the Sox haven't improved themselves yet. Oi vay.

[mvp 78]

That's why I was okay with Ben being fired. It wasn't just that he brought in two duds, it's also that he passed over some great players.

 

*****************

 

January 12th and the Sox haven't improved themselves yet. Oi vay.

 

After the 2013 WS, he really turned into a dud.

[moonslav59]

That's why I was okay with Ben being fired. It wasn't just that he brought in two duds, it's also that he passed over some great players.

 

*****************

 

January 12th and the Sox haven't improved themselves yet. Oi vay.

 

3 duds: HRam, Pablito & Rusney

[Nick]

In hindsight, it was two bad contracts. At the time, I didn't think Hanley's contract was that bad.

 

Maybe this is in line with 'playoffs' being 'overvalued'.

 

I think you're proponent of getting into the playoffs. Nothing 'assures' you of world championship. You can't just 'go for it' and destroy the farm and the salary structure for one year. Now I'm okay with what DD did but had we not won the world series I would feel differently.

 

We tend to overvalue the 'performance' in the playoffs. I believe that's where the Sandoval signing originate. We ignore the pedestrian regular season and lock in on the superior performance during the world series. You can't become a different player based on one 7 game series. You showed us what exactly you are over the 162 game season. That should not negate average talent displayed during the regular season.

 

You can't give a player $100M based on that blip of success.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Maybe this is in line with 'playoffs' being 'overvalued'.

 

I think you're proponent of getting into the playoffs. Nothing 'assures' you of world championship. You can't just 'go for it' and destroy the farm and the salary structure for one year.

 

I also believe we tend to overvalue the 'performance' in the playoffs. I believe that's where the Sandoval signing originate. We ignore the pedestrian regular season and lock in on the superior performance during the world series. You can't become a different player based on 7 game series. You showed us what exactly you are over the 162 game season.

 

You can't give a player $100M based on that blip of success.

 

Agreed, but Pablito fell woefully short of even his regular season numbers with SF.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

Kluber is throwing his bullpen in front of scouts tomorrow and it seems like 20 different teams think they may be getting a top of the rotation guy for pennies on the dollar. Let’s see how this goes.

 

This offseason is the MLB version of musical chairs.

[moonslav59]

@redsoxstats

Kluber is throwing his bullpen in front of scouts tomorrow and it seems like 20 different teams think they may be getting a top of the rotation guy for pennies on the dollar. Let’s see how this goes.

 

This offseason is the MLB version of musical chairs.

 

I never got how one session like this can really change someone's mind all that much.

 

You look at the speed of his fastball, but you know he may be throwing extra hard.

 

Can showing control or lack of it in one session really mean all that much?

[Bellhorn04]

I never got how one session like this can really change someone's mind all that much.

 

You look at the speed of his fastball, but you know he may be throwing extra hard.

 

Can showing control or lack of it in one session really mean all that much?

 

Velocity has to be a big part of it. Spin rate too, I suppose. (Also maybe zooming in on his face for any signs of discomfort...)

[notin]

I never got how one session like this can really change someone's mind all that much.

 

You look at the speed of his fastball, but you know he may be throwing extra hard.

 

Can showing control or lack of it in one session really mean all that much?

 

Well the guy does have two Cy Young's under his belt. If he has any velocity left, and he can go a full session without having surgery, his track record does the rest of the talking...

[kenmeister]

Well the guy does have two Cy Young's under his belt. If he has any velocity left, and he can go a full session without having surgery, his track record does the rest of the talking...

 

If Kluber looks good, and the Sox sign him, I will be thrilled. We should have the inside track given that he lives here anyway.

[moonslav59]

Well the guy does have two Cy Young's under his belt. If he has any velocity left, and he can go a full session without having surgery, his track record does the rest of the talking...

 

I like Kluber, and would like to see us sign him, if the price is not too high.

 

My post was meant to criticize the throwing session not Kluber.

 

If he hits 97, does it really mean much?

 

If he's wild or shows pin point accuracy, should that really mean that much?

 

One session. Non-game conditions?

[Bellhorn04]

I like Kluber, and would like to see us sign him, if the price is not too high.

 

My post was meant to criticize the throwing session not Kluber.

 

If he hits 97, does it really mean much?

 

If he's wild or shows pin point accuracy, should that really mean that much?

 

One session. Non-game conditions?

 

I think it's standard procedure in these cases. What else would you propose?

[notin]

I like Kluber, and would like to see us sign him, if the price is not too high.

 

My post was meant to criticize the throwing session not Kluber.

 

If he hits 97, does it really mean much?

 

If he's wild or shows pin point accuracy, should that really mean that much?

 

One session. Non-game conditions?

 

Again, he does have a track record. And he was actually incredibly good as recently as 2018. Chris Flexen got 2 years and he has never been any good...

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

Houston really needs a LF and C. Boston really needs young pitching. Bloom and Click worked together for a long time. Thinking face

 

@IanCundall

Agree with this line of thinking. There’s a potential deal to be made here that could make a lot of sense for both teams with just Benintendi or both players.

[Kimmi]

Maybe this is in line with 'playoffs' being 'overvalued'.

 

I think you're proponent of getting into the playoffs. Nothing 'assures' you of world championship. You can't just 'go for it' and destroy the farm and the salary structure for one year. Now I'm okay with what DD did but had we not won the world series I would feel differently.

 

We tend to overvalue the 'performance' in the playoffs. I believe that's where the Sandoval signing originate. We ignore the pedestrian regular season and lock in on the superior performance during the world series. You can't become a different player based on one 7 game series. You showed us what exactly you are over the 162 game season. That should not negate average talent displayed during the regular season.

 

You can't give a player $100M based on that blip of success.

 

I agree 100% Nick. GMs should know not to sign any player based off of postseason performance.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree 100% Nick. GMs should know not to sign any player based off of postseason performance.

 

I have never believed that Sandoval was signed strictly because of his postseason numbers.

 

IIRC, the Giants made an offer to Pablo that was equal to or close to the Red Sox offer.

 

If they had only signed he or Hanley, it would have been forgivable. Signing both was just asking for it. They were both kind of mercurial performers at that point.

[Kimmi]

I have never believed that Sandoval was signed strictly because of his postseason numbers.

 

IIRC, the Giants made an offer to Pablo that was equal to or close to the Red Sox offer.

 

If they had only signed he or Hanley, it would have been forgivable. Signing both was just asking for it. They were both kind of mercurial performers at that point.

 

Well, I honestly don't believe that Ben would sign Pablo based off of postseason performance, which is why I think it was a Larry signing.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, I honestly don't believe that Ben would sign Pablo based off of postseason performance, which is why I think it was a Larry signing.

 

Maybe what happened was, Ben and Larry struck a deal that each one of them got to make one $90 million signing. And to make it even more fun, they didn't tell each other who it was until the day of the announcement.

[moonslav59]

I think it's standard procedure in these cases. What else would you propose?

 

I have no better ideas, and I guess watching him throw on one day is slightly better than not watching him at all, but being someone who pooh-poohs small sample sizes in actual game situations as much or more than anyone else, this seems kind of comical, to me.

 

I guess, if he can't throw over 84, it would be telling, but if that was the case, he wouldn't be doing this.

[moonslav59]

Again, he does have a track record. And he was actually incredibly good as recently as 2018. Chris Flexen got 2 years and he has never been any good...

 

Again, I'd be happy signing Kluber at a reasonable cost.

 

I'm speaking about these one day showcase sessions.

[moonslav59]

Well, I honestly don't believe that Ben would sign Pablo based off of postseason performance, which is why I think it was a Larry signing.

 

I don't either. Plus, it's not like he sucked in the regular season and was post prime. Maybe they felt he'd hit better in the AL and Fenway Park.

 

Maybe they thought about a somewhat overweight Papi's unspectacular numbers with the Twins before we got him.

[moonslav59]

@redsoxstats

Houston really needs a LF and C. Boston really needs young pitching. Bloom and Click worked together for a long time. Thinking face

 

@IanCundall

Agree with this line of thinking. There’s a potential deal to be made here that could make a lot of sense for both teams with just Benintendi or both players.

 

The BTV site accepted this trade (not that I would do it):

 

Vaz, Beni & Groome for Pressly, James and Whitley

 

(We'd need to find a catcher, and Whitley is a prospect who sucked in 2019.)

 

I like this 3 way deal better:

 

To BOS: Taillon, Stallings, Pressly, Frazier

To HOU: Vaz, Beni Ward

To PIT: Whitley, Paredes, C Wong

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Here's another one:

 

Beni & Chavis

 

for

 

Javier (SP), Pressly (RP) & Gurriel (1B) + $3M

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The BTV site accepted this trade (not that I would do it):

 

Vaz, Beni & Groome for Pressly, James and Whitley

 

(We'd need to find a catcher, and Whitley is a prospect who sucked in 2019.)

 

I like this 3 way deal better:

 

To BOS: Taillon, Stallings, Pressly, Frazier

To HOU: Vaz, Beni Ward

To PIT: Whitley, Paredes, C Wong

 

 

MLB TV doesn't even rank Vazquez in the Top Ten Catchers Now. He not indispensable... while we're rebuilding.

[moonslav59]

MLB TV doesn't even rank Vazquez in the Top Ten Catchers Now. He not indispensable... while we're rebuilding.

 

I never thought of Vaz as being top 10. His defense and handling of the staff more than offsets his good (catcher) bat.

[mvp 78]

The BTV site accepted this trade (not that I would do it):

 

Vaz, Beni & Groome for Pressly, James and Whitley

 

(We'd need to find a catcher, and Whitley is a prospect who sucked in 2019.)

 

I like this 3 way deal better:

 

To BOS: Taillon, Stallings, Pressly, Frazier

To HOU: Vaz, Beni Ward

To PIT: Whitley, Paredes, C Wong

 

 

We need to find a catcher, so let's trade 2 of them?

[jacksonianmarch]

You need a good defensive, veteran catcher if your goal is to build a staff. Young catchers and young staffs may build the catcher, but hinder the staff. I’d go the other way if I was Bloom. I’d deal Vazquez for the most value. I wouldn’t do a package, I’d legit go for 2 or 3 prospects, one top 100 in there. I’d sign a guy like Jeff Mathis who has awesome defensive chops and know how to handle a staff. That’s who I’d hitch my wagon to while growing young pitchers. I’d groom a young catcher to take over, but not for 2021

[moonslav59]

We need to find a catcher, so let's trade 2 of them?

 

Stallings is a fine catcher: I like him more than Vaz, despite Vaz having twice his BTV rating.

 

Plus, Vaz has just 2 years of team control remaining on a team looking at 2022 and beyond more than 2021. Stallings has 4 arb years remaining, counting 2021.

Edited January 13, 2021 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

You need a good defensive, veteran catcher if your goal is to build a staff. Young catchers and young staffs may build the catcher, but hinder the staff. I’d go the other way if I was Bloom. I’d deal Vazquez for the most value. I wouldn’t do a package, I’d legit go for 2 or 3 prospects, one top 100 in there. I’d sign a guy like Jeff Mathis who has awesome defensive chops and know how to handle a staff. That’s who I’d hitch my wagon to while growing young pitchers. I’d groom a young catcher to take over, but not for 2021

 

Wong will never be a fine defensive catcher, IMO. Stallings already is, by what I've heard.