Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[Bellhorn04]

Mookie had a good game last night. He's probably going to make the naysayers (including me) eat their words.

[mvp 78]

I was going through my card collection this week and the Mookie Sox cards no longer turned my stomach. Progress!

[Nick]

Mookie had a good game last night. He's probably going to make the naysayers (including me) eat their words.

 

Looking down from 30,000 ft, its very possible he'll have another MVP type year but I sure don't want to be on the hook for 12 years. Too many things can go wrong.

[dgalehouse]

Mookie had a good game last night. He's probably going to make the naysayers (including me) eat their words.

 

Water seeks it's level.

[notin]

I was going through my card collection this week and the Mookie Sox cards no longer turned my stomach. Progress!

 

Mookie’s play was never going to be the question, at least not for a few more years. For Boston, it was a question of whether or not they would be able to put a good enough team around him for the next several seasons...

[moonslav59]

Mookie’s play was never going to be the question, at least not for a few more years. For Boston, it was a question of whether or not they would be able to put a good enough team around him for the next several seasons...

 

Well, his high impact years have not worked out very, so far.

 

2020 was a 60 game season.

 

This year has been a let down over the first third of the year.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, his high impact years have not worked out very, so far.

 

2020 was a 60 game season.

 

This year has been a let down over the first third of the year.

 

2020 was also a championship for his team.

[moonslav59]

2020 was also a championship for his team.

 

Yes, it was, but only getting 60 games of Betts in his prime was a loss for the Dodgers and their viewers and fans.

[moonslav59]

COVID has caused much worse losses.

 

No doubt.

[oldtimer]

Yes, it was, but only getting 60 games of Betts in his prime was a loss for the Dodgers and their viewers and fans.

The deal of getting a low priced Verdugo and two others for one year of Betts looks like a stroke of g[/b]enius.

[Bellhorn04]

The deal of getting a low priced Verdugo and two others for one year of Betts looks like a stroke of g[/b]enius.

 

Huge credit to Bloom for getting a player of Verdugo's caliber in the deal.

[Hugh2]

I remember a long time ago when both Xander Bogaerts and Mookie Betts were very young players (call it 2014) someone was asked who is the better player between Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts. I forgot who the scout was and what the platform was, it might have been baseball America or pipeline. But his opinion at the time was that some scouts viewed Betts as the better player now, but saw Bogaerts as the better career. At 5-9, 180 Betts isn't a good bet to be performing in the second 1/2 of his contract. Smaller players tend to hit a cliff sooner and decline faster.

 

I loved Mookie, and would have stood by keeping him here, but I understand the decision. Recently, I've been trying to face another reality about the Mookie trade that I think a lot of Boston fans don't want to consider. Mookie didn't want to resign here, he wanted to go to free agency and get paid (like 99% of other players) and the Sox knew it, so they got something for him.

[moonslav59]

I remember a long time ago when both Xander Bogaerts and Mookie Betts were very young players (call it 2014) someone was asked who is the better player between Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts. I forgot who the scout was and what the platform was, it might have been baseball America or pipeline. But his opinion at the time was that some scouts viewed Betts as the better player now, but saw Bogaerts as the better career. At 5-9, 180 Betts isn't a good bet to be performing in the second 1/2 of his contract. Smaller players tend to hit a cliff sooner and decline faster.

 

I loved Mookie, and would have stood by keeping him here, but I understand the decision. Recently, I've been trying to face another reality about the Mookie trade that I think a lot of Boston fans don't want to consider. Mookie didn't want to resign here, he wanted to go to free agency and get paid (like 99% of other players) and the Sox knew it, so they got something for him.

 

Has there ever been a valid study on length of career and late career production by body type?

[moonslav59]

Huge credit to Bloom for getting a player of Verdugo's caliber in the deal.

 

He certainly looks like a keeper!

 

We have 3 more arb years to go, too!

 

That being said, it was Mookie Betts we traded, so getting something very good should have been expected.

 

If Downs can give us anything, maybe even via another trade, it would be hard to view this trade as a loss.

[Bellhorn04]

Has there ever been a valid study on length of career and late career production by body type?

 

I don't know. But some athletes are unique, I think, and Mookie may be one of them. He's got the exceptional quick twitch muscles. He bowls 300 games. He can throw a baseball 300 feet or whatever it was. I would not *bet* against him.

[Bellhorn04]

That being said, it was Mookie Betts we traded, so getting something very good should have been expected.

 

If Downs can give us anything, maybe even via another trade, it would be hard to view this trade as a loss.

 

It was great work by Bloom, I think we can say that already. There were some who thought we might not get back a huge package because it was only one year of control at a cost of 27 million. It was a salary dump.

[redsoxrules]

Has there ever been a valid study on length of career and late career production by body type?

 

Not sure about body type per say but definitely for players with speed. You think Betts will be a good value in a few years when he no longer steal bases and not as quick around the base paths? You want to pay 350 Mil for just his bat down the the road? Take away his MVP season and you'll see his career avg is nothing special batting wise.

[Bellhorn04]

Not sure about body type per say but definitely for players with speed. You think Betts will be a good value in a few years when he no longer steal bases and not as quick around the base paths? You want to pay 350 Mil for just his bat down the the road? Take away his MVP season and you'll see his career avg is nothing special batting wise.

 

He's a complete player who has won games every way you can on a field. You don't find many of those.

[Hugh2]

Has there ever been a valid study on length of career and late-career production by body type?

 

There has, I do not remember where I've read it. I've seen it at least in one place maybe more. Fangraphs, BA, Baseball Prospectus, I'll have to look it up, it would be nice to post. I hope I can remember to do so next week. It's my birthday today and I just don't have the ambition to look that deeply into it now. I'll probably spend 5 minutes on google after this seeing what I can find but after that it's work work work and then the wife is taking me and the family to Orlando for a week. But if someone else doesn't have it I'll try to look it up at some point.

 

Remember, there's always an exception to the rule. I'm sure there's plenty of athletic 6'5" guys who fall off a cliff after 30 and little guys who play into their late 30's. Heck if Altuve can put together a few more good seasons he will have defied those odds.

[Hugh2]

Another take I took from that fact and the Bogaerts/Betts comparison is the bet that a guy like Bogaerts is going to age better than Betts. He will probably be a better player at 35 than Mookie is. Again, this is a guestimate. But you have decisions to make as a team. Extend Bogaerts, Extend JDM, replace those guys with big money if they walk, extend Devers, you need pay a pitcher if you want to compete in a year or two and no matter how much people want to spend other peoples money the Sox are just not going to go over the luxury tax. Not for more than a year or two at least. If you consider all that, and the reality that hard choices have to be made and you think there's a really good chance Mookie is going to walk in a year you're not competing, you'd be stupid not to trade him.

[notin]

Not sure about body type per say but definitely for players with speed. You think Betts will be a good value in a few years when he no longer steal bases and not as quick around the base paths? You want to pay 350 Mil for just his bat down the the road? Take away his MVP season and you'll see his career avg is nothing special batting wise.

 

Betts will undoubtedly fade as he ages. Everyone does. But the Dodgers wanted peak Betts in the lineup while they still had Bellinger, Seager, Muncy, Kershaw, Jansen, etc. to try and get as many titles as possible in the short term. The way their farm is going, they are hoping (and could easily be successful) in getting younger, cheap players to make up the difference between 35yo Betts and 28yo Betts...

[moonslav59]

There has, I do not remember where I've read it. I've seen it at least in one place maybe more. Fangraphs, BA, Baseball Prospectus, I'll have to look it up, it would be nice to post. I hope I can remember to do so next week. It's my birthday today and I just don't have the ambition to look that deeply into it now. I'll probably spend 5 minutes on google after this seeing what I can find but after that it's work work work and then the wife is taking me and the family to Orlando for a week. But if someone else doesn't have it I'll try to look it up at some point.

 

Remember, there's always an exception to the rule. I'm sure there's plenty of athletic 6'5" guys who fall off a cliff after 30 and little guys who play into their late 30's. Heck if Altuve can put together a few more good seasons he will have defied those odds.

 

I'm not doubting a study or two exist, and of course we can find examples that go against any study (Suzuki, Aaron and others come to mind), but it seems like the hulk players spend more time on the IL over their whole careers.

[mvp 78]

I'm not doubting a study or two exist, and of course we can find examples that go against any study (Suzuki, Aaron and others come to mind), but it seems like the hulk players spend more time on the IL over their whole careers.

 

Aside from 1993, Mark McGwire was a pretty healthy guy. Barry Bonds too.

[notin]

I'm not doubting a study or two exist, and of course we can find examples that go against any study (Suzuki, Aaron and others come to mind), but it seems like the hulk players spend more time on the IL over their whole careers.

 

The man who will skew the whole thing is the most aptly named player in MLB history - Mickey Klutts. Klutts' claim to fame is that in his 8 year MLB career, he had fewer career at-bats than days on the DL. (True!!!!) He was also a rather boring guy of average size, listed as 5'11 170lbs. And the bulk of that weight might have been casts and other medical devices...

[Hugh2]

I'm not doubting a study or two exist, and of course we can find examples that go against any study (Suzuki, Aaron and others come to mind), but it seems like the hulk players spend more time on the IL over their whole careers.

 

I mean it's a two-way street, how well can a guy who is overweight age? I'd guess if they can hit the offensive production drop off is less because they can move to 1b/DH.

[notin]

Aside from 1993, Mark McGwire was a pretty healthy guy. Barry Bonds too.

 

He missed a lot of time in 1994 and 1995 as well.

 

And his carer was cut short by the plantar fasciitis that limited him to pinch hitting roles and that bizarre 2B usage by Tony LaRussa. (LaRussa would put McGwire in the lineup as the leadoff hitter in road games, listed as the 2B, then after the 1st inning and his one PA with the bases empty, remove him and put in light-hitting Fernando Vina to actually play the field and take over the leadoff spot. No idea why LaRussa did not just save McGwire for pinch hitting opportunities with men on base, especially since the Cardinals were/still are in the National League, you know, where pitchers bat.)

[illinoisredsox]

He missed a lot of time in 1994 and 1995 as well.

 

And his carer was cut short by the plantar fasciitis that limited him to pinch hitting roles and that bizarre 2B usage by Tony LaRussa. (LaRussa would put McGwire in the lineup as the leadoff hitter in road games, listed as the 2B, then after the 1st inning and his one PA with the bases empty, remove him and put in light-hitting Fernando Vina to actually play the field and take over the leadoff spot. No idea why LaRussa did not just save McGwire for pinch hitting opportunities with men on base, especially since the Cardinals were/still are in the National League, you know, where pitchers bat.)

 

I’m guessing whatever stretching or other rigmarole McGwire needed to get ready to hit required more time than the normal pinch hitter gets. By hitting him in the first, McGwire could take the needed time.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Aside from 1993, Mark McGwire was a pretty healthy guy. Barry Bonds too.

 

Stanton is hurt every year. Judge, too.

 

The whole stereotype of height is freaking ridiculous in baseball, a sport unlike all the others... where guys of all shapes and sizes can thrive based on talent.

[mvp 78]

Stanton is hurt every year. Judge, too.

 

The whole stereotype of height is freaking ridiculous in baseball, a sport unlike all the others... where guys of all shapes and sizes can thrive based on talent.

 

Adam Dunn laced up his cleats almost every day. Guys like Sizemore and Baldelli couldn't get out of the trainer's room.

[moonslav59]

Adam Dunn laced up his cleats almost every day. Guys like Sizemore and Baldelli couldn't get out of the trainer's room.

 

We can find examples to support each side.

 

One point of order would have to be what determines who is a hulk, who is "small" and who is in between.

 

Then, what percentage of players fall in each group.

 

Next, which group plays longer, more innings, more games per player than the others.

 

Another thing to look at would be average WAR per player after age 33 or 35 or ___.

 

The parameters might be arbitrary, but I'd like to see any studies that address this.

 

Over the past 40 years, these are the top 20 games played leaders:

 

Henderson

Murray

Ripken

Bonds (had help)

Winfield

Vizquel

A Beltre

Pujols

Yount

Biggio

Palmeiro

Baines

ARod

Jeter

Brett

Molitar

Griffey Jr.

Da Evans

Suzuki

Dawson

 

Looks like a pretty good mix of small, medium and large.