A Realistic View at 2020: Part I

[Bellhorn04]

Question for Red Sox fans. Let's say Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, totally healthy, arm looks great, velocity way up, striking people out, and is on pace to have one of his best seasons in 2020.

 

Do you trade Sale at the deadline for a motherload of prospects? If Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, teams will be lining up to trade for him, since a dominant Sale can be the difference between winning and losing in the postseason. Or would you hold on to Sale with the goal of competing over the next few seasons?

 

Hold on hard.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Question for Red Sox fans. Let's say Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, totally healthy, arm looks great, velocity way up, striking people out, and is on pace to have one of his best seasons in 2020.

 

Do you trade Sale at the deadline for a motherload of prospects? If Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, teams will be lining up to trade for him, since a dominant Sale can be the difference between winning and losing in the postseason. Or would you hold on to Sale with the goal of competing over the next few seasons?

 

You need an ace to compete and contend. Trading Sale would further diminish the Sox chances at either. Prospects are just prospects.

 

Players on Hall of Fame paths like Betts and Sale are the cornerstones contenders are built around. If the Red Sox trade their ace, they'll just be searching, and if history shows -- overspending -- trying to replace him with someone else. Just like they're probably going to with Mookie...

[mvp 78]

Question for Red Sox fans. Let's say Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, totally healthy, arm looks great, velocity way up, striking people out, and is on pace to have one of his best seasons in 2020.

 

Do you trade Sale at the deadline for a motherload of prospects? If Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, teams will be lining up to trade for him, since a dominant Sale can be the difference between winning and losing in the postseason. Or would you hold on to Sale with the goal of competing over the next few seasons?

 

I only trade him if my medical staff is advising me that he's likely to break down or diminish as a player in the near future. Otherwise, ride or die. Re-sign Betts in the offseason.

[Slasher9]

Question for Red Sox fans. Let's say Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, totally healthy, arm looks great, velocity way up, striking people out, and is on pace to have one of his best seasons in 2020.

 

Do you trade Sale at the deadline for a motherload of prospects? If Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, teams will be lining up to trade for him, since a dominant Sale can be the difference between winning and losing in the postseason. Or would you hold on to Sale with the goal of competing over the next few seasons?

 

depends on the motherload. if Los Dodgers offered lux, may, gray or Pads offered gore, patino, trammel i would have to give it serious serious consideration....

[Tedballgame]

The White Sox become the team to beat in 2020 with the signing of Gorkys Hernandez.

[Kimmi]

also.....when you "give away" prospects in a deal that you could have made with far less (see: kimbrel, pom) those players that were given away willy nilly could have been used to get the other players (see: Sale). perhaps we could have moncada as our cost controlled starting 2bman and a young stud pitcher making his way back from TJS (espy)....

 

^^ This

 

I don't necessarily agree with the specific trades that you've mentioned, but I agree with your overall point.

[Kimmi]

Question for Red Sox fans. Let's say Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, totally healthy, arm looks great, velocity way up, striking people out, and is on pace to have one of his best seasons in 2020.

 

Do you trade Sale at the deadline for a motherload of prospects? If Chris Sale is Chris Sale again, teams will be lining up to trade for him, since a dominant Sale can be the difference between winning and losing in the postseason. Or would you hold on to Sale with the goal of competing over the next few seasons?

 

Definitely keep him. If Chris Sale becomes Chris Sale again, he will be a bargain.

[Nick]

^^ This

 

I don't necessarily agree with the specific trades that you've mentioned, but I agree with your overall point.

 

Moncada auditioned at 3B for a reason. We had Pedey under contract through 2021 season.

 

Our baseball people further determined that Devers was better 3B.

 

It took Kopech and Devers to get an ace with very reasonable cost.

 

Let's not conflate Sale's new contract extension with the contract we inherited.

 

It was a great trade.

 

Just ask Freakin' Moon.

 

Thus, Devers and Kopech is not part of 'decimating' the farm conversation. We got a great player for two prospects.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Nick

[Kimmi]

Moncada auditioned at 3B for a reason. We had Pedey under contract through 2021 season.

 

Our baseball people further determined that Devers was better 3B.

 

It took Kopech and Devers to get an ace with very reasonable cost.

 

Let's not conflate Sale's new contract extension with the contract we inherited.

 

It was a great trade.

 

Just ask Freakin' Moon.

 

Thus, Devers and Kopech is not part of 'decimating' the farm conversation. We got a great player for two prospects.

 

It's not necessarily any one trade that I have an issue with, it's the magnitude of the prospects traded away.

 

Personally, I am okay with the Sale extension.

[moonslav59]

Moncada auditioned at 3B for a reason. We had Pedey under contract through 2021 season.

 

Our baseball people further determined that Devers was better 3B.

 

It took Kopech and Devers to get an ace with very reasonable cost.

 

Let's not conflate Sale's new contract extension with the contract we inherited.

 

It was a great trade.

 

Just ask Freakin' Moon.

 

Thus, Moncada and Kopech is not part of 'decimating' the farm conversation. We got a great player for two prospects.

 

I changed Devers to Moncada.

 

I'm still very happy we traded for Sale and resigned him. I am very confident he will return to form.

 

That being said, trading Moncada and Kopech were part of decimating the farm. I think it was a worthy part of the whole decimation, but they were part of it.

 

When Sale returns to form, we should not trade him. He is a big part of the rebuild plan. He's part of the core we build around- Sale, Bogey & Devers.

 

We all await the glorious return of...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale!

[notin]

Moncada auditioned at 3B for a reason. We had Pedey under contract through 2021 season.

 

Our baseball people further determined that Devers was better 3B.

 

It took Kopech and Devers to get an ace with very reasonable cost.

 

Let's not conflate Sale's new contract extension with the contract we inherited.

 

It was a great trade.

 

Just ask Freakin' Moon.

 

Thus, Devers and Kopech is not part of 'decimating' the farm conversation. We got a great player for two prospects.

 

Well, they are. That's like saying that if you deplete your bank account to buy your dream home, it really isn't depleted because it's, well, your dream home.

 

It's a good thing when you decimate the farm and are happy with the return. but that doesn't make the famr any better. And the Sox have reached a point where the big contracts have prohibited MLB acquisitions and the farm can do very little or them.

 

Also, I think you meant Moncada...

[moonslav59]

It's not necessarily any one trade that I have an issue with, it's the magnitude of the prospects traded away.

 

Personally, I am okay with the Sale extension.

 

Agreed, and if you take each major DD trade made, here's what I thought of them at the time of the deal:

 

Kimbrel: hated it due to too many prospects given and CK not being a financial bargain

Pomeranz: disliked the trade not Pom. Thought a bigger package with maybe some from the CK trade could have gotten us better.

Sale: loved it and still do.

Thornburg: liked it

Nunez, Kinsler, Eovaldi & Reed: liked them.

 

We likely could have won without Pom, Thornburg, Kinsler and Reed, but taking back just those trades (in hindsight) would not greatly improve our farm or future outlook all that much.

 

Winning without Kimbrel and or Sale is another issue.

[notin]

Agreed, and if you take each major DD trade made, here's what I thought of them at the time of the deal:

 

Kimbrel: hated it due to too many prospects given and CK not being a financial bargain

Pomeranz: disliked the trade not Pom. Thought a bigger package with maybe some from the CK trade could have gotten us better.

Sale: loved it and still do.

Thornburg: liked it

Nunez, Kinsler, Eovaldi & Reed: liked them.

 

We likely could have won without Pom, Thornburg, Kinsler and Reed, but taking back just those trades (in hindsight) would not greatly improve our farm or future outlook all that much.

 

Winning without Kimbrel and or Sale is another issue.

 

The problem with the Pomeranz trade was the whole medical file switcheroo pulled by Preller, and the Sox did nothing about it. They knowingly accepted damaged goods, and he pitched like it the remainder of the year. A healthy Pomeranz was a deserving All Star that season and normally well worth the A ball prospect. I consider it charma that Espinoza has barely thrown a pitch since that trade.

 

The Kimbrel trade was a massive overpay IMO.

 

Sale costs was about right. But that doesn't mean it didn't deplete the farm and that the prospects dealt away had no potential future in Boston. It was the cost of doing business. But there was a hidden cost the Sox are paying now. Now Sale's extension raised some questions. The fact that he signed a deal that cheap for that short of a period absolutely raised questions about his health, at least to me. But he certainly showed elite talent last year when healthy after a slow Cora-induced start...

 

Eovaldi was a good trade but a stupid extension...

[notin]

Now as for Bloom

 

I at least understand why the Mookie trade was made.

 

But his lack of low level activity is disheartening. Get some guys on MiLB contracts!!

 

So far, Aaron Loup, Trevor Rosenthal, Dan Otero, Blake Parker, Nick Vincent, Luis Avilan, Greg Bird, Matt Adams, Derek Dietrich, Joe Panik, Jared Hughes, Chad Bettis, Tommy Milone, AJ Cole, Brad Boxberger, Juan Minaya, Yimi Garcia, Jacob Burnes, Yolmer Sanchez, Derek Law, Dylan Covey, Nick Tropeano, Jared Eickoff, Justin Bour, Kyle Barraclaugh, Zack Godley, and Greg Holland and others have signed MiLB contracts, none of them with Boston.

 

I'm sure the Sox could have used at least one of these guys, most likely more. If for no other reason than depth...

[moonslav59]

DD traded these top prospects (soxprospects.com highest ranking):

 

1 Y Moncada

3 A Espinoza

3 M Margot

5 D Marrero

6 J Guerra

5 M Kopech

5 J Beeks

7 L Basabe

9 M Dubon

11 S Anderson

13 L Allen

16 B Taylor

17 T Buttrey

17 W Jerez

18 L Basabe

20 C Asuaje

20 S Nogosek

[Nick]

Farm exists at the pleasure of major league ball club.

 

I still think everyone on this board dismisses easily the state of Red Sox when DD was hired. Three last place finishes in four years. Look how alarmed we were last year finishing third and playing above .500 despite depleted starting pitching.

 

Henry apparently told him to do whatever it takes to get us out of funk. 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships (I believe first time time in Red Sox history) and a world championship.

 

Our current roster is NOT completely devoid of talent. We also have some young talent coming up.

 

This is a pessimistic bunch.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers repeating his last season and watching younger players making contribution to this ball club.

 

I'm happy that my team has one of highest budget in baseball.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Farm exists at the pleasure of major league ball club.

 

I still think everyone on this board dismisses easily the state of Red Sox when DD was hired. Three last place finishes in four years. Look how alarmed we were last year finishing third and playing above .500 despite depleted starting pitching.

 

Henry apparently told him to do whatever it takes to get us out of funk. 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships (I believe first time time in Red Sox history) and a world championship.

 

Our current roster is NOT completely devoid of talent. We also have some young talent coming up.

 

This is a pessimistic bunch.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers repeating his last season and watching younger players making contribution to this ball club.

 

I'm happy that my team has one of highest budget in baseball.

 

Many of us wanted and expected many prospects to be traded- not nearly all of them.

 

It wasn't an all or nothing choice.

 

It was also about who we traded for as much as who we traded away.

 

It was also about the quantity of trades.

 

Of course the farm is to be sued as the GM wishes, but that does not mean all decisions are beyond reproach.

 

As for the 3 last place finishes: going into each of those seasons, we had a lot to be optimistic about.

 

We can probably blame one last place on Bobby V.

 

We also had a ring between all those bad seasons, so it was not like all was lost, and we had some long extended streak of futility.

 

DD was hired the get us a rings, and he did. That doesn't mean all discussion must and will end concerning his possibility of going overboard.

 

Even if we all agree, which will never happen here, that every trade was needed to win that ring in 2018, it still does not mean we have deny the effects of all those trades on our future. Sadly, the future came upon us quicker than many of us expected or hoped for, but I guess what bugs me a little, is how some refused to believe this day would ever come.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Farm exists at the pleasure of major league ball club.

 

I still think everyone on this board dismisses easily the state of Red Sox when DD was hired. Three last place finishes in four years. Look how alarmed we were last year finishing third and playing above .500 despite depleted starting pitching.

 

Henry apparently told him to do whatever it takes to get us out of funk. 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships (I believe first time time in Red Sox history) and a world championship.

 

Our current roster is NOT completely devoid of talent. We also have some young talent coming up.

 

This is a pessimistic bunch.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers repeating his last season and watching younger players making contribution to this ball club.

 

I'm happy that my team has one of highest budget in baseball.

 

I'm in agreement on most of this.

[Bellhorn04]

Many of us wanted and expected many prospects to be traded- not nearly all of them.

 

It wasn't an all or nothing choice.

 

It was also about who we traded for as much as who we traded away.

 

It was also about the quantity of trades.

 

Of course the farm is to be sued as the GM wishes, but that does not mean all decisions are beyond reproach.

 

As for the 3 last place finishes: going into each of those seasons, we had a lot to be optimistic about.

 

We can probably blame one last place on Bobby V.

 

We also had a ring between all those bad seasons, so it was not like all was lost, and we had some long extended streak of futility.

 

DD was hired the get us a rings, and he did. That doesn't mean all discussion must and will end concerning his possibility of going overboard.

 

Even if we all agree, which will never happen here, that every trade was needed to win that ring in 2018, it still does not mean we have deny the effects of all those trades on our future. Sadly, the future came upon us quicker than many of us expected or hoped for, but I guess what bugs me a little, is how some refused to believe this day would ever come.

 

 

From a philosophical perspective, and this is strictly a personal thing, I find talking about the prospects DD traded away gets a little tiresome eventually.

 

There's nothing that can be changed about it, and not much that can be learned from it, and it's just not that interesting any more.

 

We need to focus on what we do have and what Bloom can do for us.

[Larry Cook]

Many of us wanted and expected many prospects to be traded- not nearly all of them.

 

It wasn't an all or nothing choice.

 

It was also about who we traded for as much as who we traded away.

 

It was also about the quantity of trades.

 

Of course the farm is to be sued as the GM wishes, but that does not mean all decisions are beyond reproach.

 

As for the 3 last place finishes: going into each of those seasons, we had a lot to be optimistic about.

 

We can probably blame one last place on Bobby V.

 

We also had a ring between all those bad seasons, so it was not like all was lost, and we had some long extended streak of futility.

 

DD was hired the get us a rings, and he did. That doesn't mean all discussion must and will end concerning his possibility of going overboard.

 

Even if we all agree, which will never happen here, that every trade was needed to win that ring in 2018, it still does not mean we have deny the effects of all those trades on our future. Sadly, the future came upon us quicker than many of us expected or hoped for, but I guess what bugs me a little, is how some refused to believe this day would ever come.

 

 

We got 1 ring under desperate Dave, however due to his scorched earth policy, we now have a roster bloated with big time contracts, tons of sore armed pitchers and a desolate wasteland of a minor league system.

 

How many more rings could we have had if Henry has not been bipolar and kept changing the strategy and GM?

 

Ps: if the cassas of today had been in our system six years ago, I doubt he even cracks our top ten!

[moonslav59]

From a philosophical perspective, and this is strictly a personal thing, I find talking about the prospects DD traded away gets a little tiresome eventually.

 

There's nothing that can be changed about it, and not much that can be learned from it, and it's just not that interesting any more.

 

We need to focus on what we do have and what Bloom can do for us.

 

I hardly ever bring it up, anymore. I'm fine with never talking about it again. We all know each other's positions.

 

I guess, once many of the prospects we traded away show what they have, it may be worth revisiting.

 

I'm just glad we are refocusing on farm-building. We will need it.

[moonslav59]

We got 1 ring under desperate Dave, however due to his scorched earth policy, we now have a roster bloated with big time contracts, tons of sore armed pitchers and a desolate wasteland of a minor league system.

 

How many more rings could we have had if Henry has not been bipolar and kept changing the strategy and GM?

 

Ps: if the cassas of today had been in our system six years ago, I doubt he even cracks our top ten!

 

I wish we kept Ben, but I'm not going all psycho analytical on Henry. The guy is a hero.

 

I'm not getting all the hatred being spewed towards him. Even the 2020 team will be a top 4 or 5 spending team.

[Kimmi]

Agreed, and if you take each major DD trade made, here's what I thought of them at the time of the deal:

 

Kimbrel: hated it due to too many prospects given and CK not being a financial bargain

Pomeranz: disliked the trade not Pom. Thought a bigger package with maybe some from the CK trade could have gotten us better.

Sale: loved it and still do.

Thornburg: liked it

Nunez, Kinsler, Eovaldi & Reed: liked them.

 

We likely could have won without Pom, Thornburg, Kinsler and Reed, but taking back just those trades (in hindsight) would not greatly improve our farm or future outlook all that much.

 

Winning without Kimbrel and or Sale is another issue.

 

I would have never done the Kimbrel deal.

 

Also, I thought the trade for Sale was overkill.

 

Yes, I know I am in a very small minority with those opinions.

[notin]

I would have never done the Kimbrel deal.

 

Also, I thought the trade for Sale was overkill.

 

Yes, I know I am in a very small minority with those opinions.

 

Agree on Kimbrel Not on Sale. No way to get a player of Sale's ability on that dirt cheap contract without giving up quality and quantity. If the Sox did not give up Moncada and Kopech plus, another team would have acquired Sale...

[Kimmi]

Now as for Bloom

 

I at least understand why the Mookie trade was made.

 

But his lack of low level activity is disheartening. Get some guys on MiLB contracts!!

 

So far, Aaron Loup, Trevor Rosenthal, Dan Otero, Blake Parker, Nick Vincent, Luis Avilan, Greg Bird, Matt Adams, Derek Dietrich, Joe Panik, Jared Hughes, Chad Bettis, Tommy Milone, AJ Cole, Brad Boxberger, Juan Minaya, Yimi Garcia, Jacob Burnes, Yolmer Sanchez, Derek Law, Dylan Covey, Nick Tropeano, Jared Eickoff, Justin Bour, Kyle Barraclaugh, Zack Godley, and Greg Holland and others have signed MiLB contracts, none of them with Boston.

 

I'm sure the Sox could have used at least one of these guys, most likely more. If for no other reason than depth...

 

I agree that Bloom should be signing pitchers to minor league contracts. As many as he realistically can. I'm not sure why he hasn't yet, but maybe he has bigger plans up his sleeve?

 

If not, this will be a criticism that I will carry all season.

[Kimmi]

Farm exists at the pleasure of major league ball club.

 

I still think everyone on this board dismisses easily the state of Red Sox when DD was hired. Three last place finishes in four years. Look how alarmed we were last year finishing third and playing above .500 despite depleted starting pitching.

 

Henry apparently told him to do whatever it takes to get us out of funk. 4 winning seasons, 3 division championships (I believe first time time in Red Sox history) and a world championship.

 

Our current roster is NOT completely devoid of talent. We also have some young talent coming up.

 

This is a pessimistic bunch.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers repeating his last season and watching younger players making contribution to this ball club.

 

I'm happy that my team has one of highest budget in baseball.

 

The Red Sox will make some noise in 2020.

 

Book it!

[Kimmi]

Agree on Kimbrel Not on Sale. No way to get a player of Sale's ability on that dirt cheap contract without giving up quality and quantity. If the Sox did not give up Moncada and Kopech plus, another team would have acquired Sale...

 

I'm not saying the package for Sale was that bad. I'm saying that we didn't need to acquire Sale.

 

{Ducks for cover}

[moonslav59]

I'm not saying the package for Sale was that bad. I'm saying that we didn't need to acquire Sale.

 

{Ducks for cover}

 

Everyone knows how I feel about Sale, but we very well may have won without him.

[Kimmi]

Everyone knows how I feel about Sale, but we very well may have won without him.

 

It's impossible to know one way or another, but we have the championship, so that trumps everything else.

 

I know I criticize Dombrowski a lot for his moves, and will likely continue to do so, but the bottom line is that we won a WS during his tenure, which makes all the heartache over the farm and the cliff worth it.

[moonslav59]

It's impossible to know one way or another, but we have the championship, so that trumps everything else.

 

I know I criticize Dombrowski a lot for his moves, and will likely continue to do so, but the bottom line is that we won a WS during his tenure, which makes all the heartache over the farm and the cliff worth it.

 

Agreed, and with the "crap shoot" aspect to the playoffs, maybe some overkill is needed to ensure getting the ring.