The Pen

[OH FOY]

Most starters do not go 7. Six is more like it, and the average is about 5.

 

The O's and Jays rarely lead after 7, so that'sone reason they have less than us.i

 

8 losses after 7 is a big problem. We need a closer. We could probably use a closer and decent set up man as well.

 

While the pen blew yesterday's game, Sale actually did worse than the pen.

 

OK so no 7, don't spin it another way. Its not only the 9th that's a problem its also the 8th. That's my point.

Edited June 27, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

Most starters do not go 7. Six is more like it, and the average is about 5.

 

The O's and Jays rarely lead after 7, so that'sone reason they have less than us.i

 

8 losses after 7 is a big problem. We need a closer. We could probably use a closer and decent set up man as well.

 

While the pen blew yesterday's game, Sale actually did worse than the pen.

 

 

Tampa has yet to lose a game where they have lead after seven, but they also employ a three-headed committee to close games with Alvarado, Castillo and Pagan. Simply put, they have multiple good pitchers they can rely on at the end of games, not to mention a few other good relievers like Yarborough and Stanek who are capable of giving them good IP (which sometimes happens in the first and second innings). The Sox lack having that many reliable options in the bullpen...

[kenmeister]

 

While the pen blew yesterday's game, Sale actually did worse than the pen.

 

That's a good point. He's not the same guy as last year. With Sale and Mookie playing noticeably worse, we won't get far.

[moonslav59]

OK so no 7, don't spin it another way. Its not only the 9th that's a problem its also the 8th. That's my point.

 

I don't disagree.

 

We need a closer and set up man.

 

Yes, the 7th, 8th and 9th have been a problem, and so has timely hitting and SP'ing.

[moonslav59]

Tampa has yet to lose a game where they have lead after seven, but they also employ a three-headed committee to close games with Alvarado, Castillo and Pagan. Simply put, they have multiple good pitchers they can rely on at the end of games, not to mention a few other good relievers like Yarborough and Stanek who are capable of giving them good IP (which sometimes happens in the first and second innings). The Sox lack having that many reliable options in the bullpen...

 

We need to replace our worst 2 pen arms with 2 solid ones.

 

Move Barnes, Workman and Walden down 2 pegs and they'll be fine in those roles.

[TylerD]

We need to replace our worst 2 pen arms with 2 solid ones.

 

Move Barnes, Workman and Walden down 2 pegs and they'll be fine in those roles.

 

Agreed. Actually yesterday in the game day thread I called that it would be Barnes and wasn't all that upset because he has some pretty solid numbers (except closing) but I said maybe he will redeem himself.... He s*** the bed and now it should be final that he never closes again. However he has solid numbers outside of the 9th inning. We find a closer or even a half respectable one and we are fine in my opinion.

[dannycater]

The love affair on Kimbrel is great, except he had an opportunity to re-sign at 17.25 mil for 2019? He wanted his pay-day. Tell me in a million years where a guy who imploded in the postseason when everyone else was pulling their weight for a WS title suddenly can be in a positioning of bargaining power? He didn't want to be a Red Sox. It's okay, so now he's a Cub after missing a lot of time of no baseball. That's on MLB too, but bottom line he could have been the closer if he really was a "team player." Instead he was in double-down I'm a free agent mode. f*** that, f*** him. f*** everyone who still in love with him. He is as much responsible for not being the Sox closer this year as anyone.

[Bellhorn04]

The love affair on Kimbrel is great, except he had an opportunity to re-sign at 17.25 mil for 2019? He wanted his pay-day. Tell me in a million years where a guy who imploded in the postseason when everyone else was pulling their weight for a WS title suddenly can be in a positioning of bargaining power? He didn't want to be a Red Sox. It's okay, so now he's a Cub after missing a lot of time of no baseball. That's on MLB too, but bottom line he could have been the closer if he really was a "team player." Instead he was in double-down I'm a free agent mode. f*** that, f*** him. f*** everyone who still in love with him. He is as much responsible for not being the Sox closer this year as anyone.

 

Re-signing Kimbrel probably wasn't the best move at his price. Should have signed SOMEBODY though.

[dannycater]

Re-signing Kimbrel probably wasn't the best move at his price. Should have signed SOMEBODY though.

 

That is a valid statement and I think it's because the Sox ran out of money with Xander/Eavoldi.

[notin]

I do hope relievers are on DD’s deadline radar. But unless you overpay, selling teams have no motivation to deal until they’ve checked in with any and all potential buyer. Unless you can find a contract some team is willing to dump for anything. But relievers like that might not be the solution the Sox need. For example, Mark Melancon can probably be had merely for the price of asking if Mark Melancon can be had. But do the Sox want to bring him back, knowing his salary this year and next are prohibitive? If they get him, he’d better work out fast, because they won’t be able to afford anyone else worthwhile.

 

Melancon does have a 3.58 ERA across 33IP this year, which appears to be sustainable in spite of his 1.56 WHIP. But his contract pays him $14mill per this year and next. Is he worth it? He flopped last time in Boston, but it was only one year. Bad seasons do happen.

 

Personally, no on Melancon. Try Mejia first and see how he does. If he fails, he can be demoted (via DFA) or released with no collateral damage...

[notin]

That is a valid statement and I think it's because the Sox ran out of money with Xander/Eavoldi.

 

 

I don’t think those extensions affect the luxury tax calculation until next season.

 

Really - and I’ve said this too many times already - the issue was using most of the available budget to bring back Pearce instead of replacing departed bullpen pieces...

[TylerD]

Re-signing Kimbrel probably wasn't the best move at his price. Should have signed SOMEBODY though.

 

They should have but maybe they were thinking the same thing as the fans? On paper this was one of the best baseball teams in history. Never in a million years did I think not having a closer would impact us this much. I didn't think our starting rotation would come out as bad as they did, I didn't think Sale would be playing the way he is (not bad but not typical Sale) And I didn't think the offense would be so inconsistent as well. Stats shows we are a top 10 team in offense but I hate reading that s***. We score in chunks and against bad teams. I thought we could figure it out as the season went with our closer problem. But it's definitely more drastic than I thought it would be. I also don't think Kimbrel was the answer for the amount of money he wanted. But hopefully this management staff can sign somebody half respectable...... Or.... Let Workman have the 9th and see what he can do. He has only given up 1 friggin run in the last 30 batters he has faced. He has been very solid.

[TylerD]

Re-signing Kimbrel probably wasn't the best move at his price. Should have signed SOMEBODY though.

 

They should have but maybe they were thinking the same thing as the fans? On paper this was one of the best baseball teams in history. Never in a million years did I think not having a closer would impact us this much. I didn't think our starting rotation would come out as bad as they did, I didn't think Sale would be playing the way he is (not bad but not typical Sale) And I didn't think the offense would be so inconsistent as well. Stats shows we are a top 10 team in offense but I hate reading that s***. We score in chunks and against bad teams. I thought we could figure it out as the season went with our closer problem. But it's definitely more drastic than I thought it would be. I also don't think Kimbrel was the answer for the amount of money he wanted. But hopefully this management staff can sign somebody half respectable...... Or.... Let Workman have the 9th and see what he can do. He has only given up 1 friggin run in the last 30 batters he has faced. He has been very solid.

[dannycater]

Well, as long-time Sox fans may not realize we had the famous "Bullpen By Committee" to start 2003 that imploded so fast that the Sox were going all closer find mode less than a month into the year. Urbina had 40 saves the year before and they said, nope we can get by just fine. Now the 2003 team ended with Tim-Bree and it was pretty darn good in the postseason too, but the moral of the story is 16 years ago the Sox tried this with terrible blown-saves galore results. You have to learn from your mistakes. The Sox and analytics still can't mask the need for a true closer. You do still need a guy reliable in the 9th. I just think that Kimbrel was not in a position of bargaining after s***ing the bed in the '18 postseason. Had he really performed and did his job and saved some of us minor heart issues, then the Sox could have used Pearce money, etc to re-sign him longer. But he didn't, and I don't really care about his Full-Pak routine. Cubs can enjoy it, let me know when it's postseason and he walks 3 in a row.

[bkzwhitestrican]

Tampa has yet to lose a game where they have lead after seven, but they also employ a three-headed committee to close games with Alvarado, Castillo and Pagan. Simply put, they have multiple good pitchers they can rely on at the end of games, not to mention a few other good relievers like Yarborough and Stanek who are capable of giving them good IP (which sometimes happens in the first and second innings). The Sox lack having that many reliable options in the bullpen...

 

The Rays have lost 11 out of their last 16. Everyone knows Tampa's real goal is to spend as little money as possible, so if they continue freefalling in July I'd expect them to sell off as many parts as they can, including their nice bullpen pieces.

[notin]

Trevor Rosenthal is currently unemployed.

 

His ERA and walk numbers are both comically high, but also only over 6 IP. His velocity is among the best of his career, and his Zone % is at a career low, but not much below norm.

 

He can be had for league minimum with Washington paying the bulk of his salary. Again, 6 IP. Ignore the totals DD...

[TylerD]

Well, as long-time Sox fans may not realize we had the famous "Bullpen By Committee" to start 2003 that imploded so fast that the Sox were going all closer find mode less than a month into the year. Urbina had 40 saves the year before and they said, nope we can get by just fine. Now the 2003 team ended with Tim-Bree and it was pretty darn good in the postseason too, but the moral of the story is 16 years ago the Sox tried this with terrible blown-saves galore results. You have to learn from your mistakes. The Sox and analytics still can't mask the need for a true closer. You do still need a guy reliable in the 9th. I just think that Kimbrel was not in a position of bargaining after s***ing the bed in the '18 postseason. Had he really performed and did his job and saved some of us minor heart issues, then the Sox could have used Pearce money, etc to re-sign him longer. But he didn't, and I don't really care about his Full-Pak routine. Cubs can enjoy it, let me know when it's postseason and he walks 3 in a row.

 

Ya I started cheering and watching the Sox in 02 but I hardly remember those seasons other than some highlight games. Still at the end of the day we should on paper have enough talent that a closer shouldn't be hurting us this bad. Sales ugly first inning was just as much to blame as Barnes blowing it. Regardless we need someone fast who can half be respectable for the 9th inning.

[dannycater]

Bad News Barnes, Part Deaux. We had Marvin (Celtics), now it's Matt.

[kenmeister]

Re-signing Kimbrel probably wasn't the best move at his price. Should have signed SOMEBODY though.

 

It looks like Adam Ottavino was the player we should have gotten. Yankees gave him $9 million per year, which isn't exorbitant.

[dgalehouse]

Trevor Rosenthal is currently unemployed.

 

His ERA and walk numbers are both comically high, but also only over 6 IP. His velocity is among the best of his career, and his Zone % is at a career low, but not much below norm.

 

He can be had for league minimum with Washington paying the bulk of his salary. Again, 6 IP. Ignore the totals DD...

 

Rosenthal might be worth a shot . What is there to lose ? Bryan " Duke " Ellington won't be walking through that bullpen door .

[Bellhorn04]

It looks like Adam Ottavino was the player we should have gotten. Yankees gave him $9 million per year, which isn't exorbitant.

 

Agreed.

[notin]

Agreed.

 

 

Ottavino is a bullpen explosion waiting to happen.

 

He isn’t going to maintain that 1.51 ERA while averaging 6 walks per 9 IP for long...

[dannycater]

Yankees #0

[dannycater]

We could get Russell Martin, apparently he can throw a scoreless inning late in a game.

[Bellhorn04]

Good thing we didn't trade for Edwin Diaz.

[dgalehouse]

Good thing we didn't trade for Edwin Diaz.

 

I say it yet again . Closing ain't easy . Neris blew the save , and Diaz blew it right back .

[notin]

Tigers are talking to Trevor Rosenthal, likely on a minors deal.

 

Way to be aggressively maintain the status quo,DD!!

[devildavid]

Well, as long-time Sox fans may not realize we had the famous "Bullpen By Committee" to start 2003 that imploded so fast that the Sox were going all closer find mode less than a month into the year. Urbina had 40 saves the year before and they said, nope we can get by just fine. Now the 2003 team ended with Tim-Bree and it was pretty darn good in the postseason too, but the moral of the story is 16 years ago the Sox tried this with terrible blown-saves galore results. You have to learn from your mistakes. The Sox and analytics still can't mask the need for a true closer. You do still need a guy reliable in the 9th. I just think that Kimbrel was not in a position of bargaining after s***ing the bed in the '18 postseason. Had he really performed and did his job and saved some of us minor heart issues, then the Sox could have used Pearce money, etc to re-sign him longer. But he didn't, and I don't really care about his Full-Pak routine. Cubs can enjoy it, let me know when it's postseason and he walks 3 in a row.

 

Sox could have saved the Pearce money anyway, and tried harder to find other good arms for the bullpen.

 

As for comparisons to 2003, the use of bullpens has changed dramatically since then. Heck, the use of pitching staffs has changed dramatically. Were there ever any starters by committee in 2003?

[Bellhorn04]

As for comparisons to 2003, the use of bullpens has changed dramatically since then. Heck, the use of pitching staffs has changed dramatically. Were there ever any starters by committee in 2003?

 

I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that the use of bullpens has changed dramatically since 2003.

 

The 'bullpen game' and the 'opener' are changes, yes, but only the Rays are doing this consistently. What else has changed? Bullpens pitch more innings, because starters don't go as deep. That's about it.

[notin]

I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that the use of bullpens has changed dramatically since 2003.

 

The 'bullpen game' and the 'opener' are changes, yes, but only the Rays are doing this consistently. What else has changed? Bullpens pitch more innings, because starters don't go as deep. That's about it.

 

The comparisons to 2003 in terms of a dedicated closer vs a committee are not really accurate, either. The Sox had a dedicated closer in 2003 - or a very small committee - in Chad Fox. The problem wasn’t the lack of a dedicated closer; it was a bullpen loaded with mediocre to bad pitchers. This year, that is where the comparison begins and ends. The Sox simply don’t have very many good pitchers out there regardless of their roles...