Sox starting pitching thread

[dgalehouse]

Looking at things objectively : Cherington presided over back to back dismal , cellar dwelling teams. He fully deserved to be fired. Dombrowski took over and immediately produced back to back division winners. ( We all know that anything can happen in the post season ). Dombrowski has acquired Sale , Kimbrel , Martinez , Price and others. He traded some prospects , kept some of the best and got rid of some dead wood. We currently have the best record in baseball , with a very realistic shot to win it all. Now , if he had held onto the traded prospects , do you really think we could now get better than the likes of Sale and Kimbrel for them. I don't think so. I fully understand the love for Theo , but the longing for Cherington and his " five year plan " is very misplaced. Excessive worry about the future years is not necessary. This is a big time franchise. Things have a way of working out. We are much better off with Dombrowski.

[vegasbob]

My only criticism of Henry is that I think he tends to overreact when things go badly. Letting Theo and Tito go, then later letting Cherington go, were all hasty decisions.

 

I don't know how anyone can seriously criticize Henry in terms of thinking he doesn't want to win every year or in terms of not spending enough money.

 

Was it Henry or Lucchino's horrific self (Bobby Valentine's buddy) that drove Theo out the door. Tito was probably made the fall guy for Larry as well. Never forget that Francona and Epstein set the table for a great bunch of idiots to accomplish the WS wins that nobody since Babe F'ing Ruth was on the Sox roster.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Really? In 2011 Theo was offered a very good contract ($18.5M for five years) to go to the Cubs and made President of Baseball Operations or something. The Ricketts family, who bought the Cubs in 2009, were determined to spend whatever it took to win a WS. I believe they were willing to outbid John Henry.

 

Since Theo left Boston, the Cubs have won one WS, and the Sox have won one WS. I think Cherington made key moves to get the 2013 title, but then made some mistakes like letting Lester go, hiring HanRam and Pablo, etc. DD has made some good moves and some not so good, and right now the Sox have a pretty good team but a difficult future because of the salary cap.

 

There are those who still believe Theo walks on water.

[Bellhorn04]

There are those who still believe Theo walks on water.

 

I don't think he walks on water, but I think he's got a pretty nice track record.

[TylerD]

It is obvious that Cora is already planning for the playoffs. And doesn' really need my advice. But here it is anyway/

 

Make doubly sure that Wright is Right when we get to mid-Se[tember. He could make all the difference especially seeing one end 4-3 instead of 3-5/ The guy is unhittable when healthy, and useless when he isn't! (which seems to be a lot of the time!)

 

Completely agreed. Until Wright got hurt he was unbelievable with his knuckleball. However not much Cora can do if Wright and the doctors say he is good to go. Sometimes you just have to put the man out there and see what he can do. But if he pitches the way he did before that Seattle game he will be a force in the playoffs against any team.

[Spudboy]

I think it's mostly horseshit. Of course there have been some big mistakes, I'm not denying that. But if you're a long-term Red Sox fan and you're moaning and groaning about John Henry's stewardship of the team, you're basically a spoiled pussy.

 

Stork is obviously not a Sox fan.

 

Spoiled pussy.

 

What a gross idea.

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski finished the plan. The 5 year plan never would have worked with Cherington because he fell in love with his prospects. Getting Kimbrel and Price for 2016 put you guys into the ALE drivers seat. Getting Sale last year kept you there. Getting JDM this offseason has put you as co-favorites to win the title with the Yanks. DD takes a lot of gruff for the way he won, but to this point, you cannot argue results

 

Yes, Dombrowski finished the plan. Cherington would have finished it as well, had he been given the opportunity to do so. I can almost guarantee you that Cherington would have traded some of his prospects in 2016, and that the Sox would have been in the playoffs with whatever moves Cherington made. The team was already set.

 

I'm not arguing any results. I have said time and time again, that Dombrowski has set the team up well for the short term.

[Kimmi]

If the Red Sox decide to move Price to the bullpen in October, and decide to make S.Wright the fourth starter in the playoffs (behind Sale, Porcello, and Rodriguez) I don't think the decision would be an overreaction. There is an empirical, statistical basis for the decision--Price has a record of failure as a playoff starter and he seems to have no answer for the Yankees lineup. Moreover, if the final 3 games of the regular season matter, it would make sense to start someone else besides Price in that series.

 

Well, a lot remains to be seen between now and the end of the season. Wright might become completely ineffective, while Price goes on a tear which includes shutting down the Yankees. At this point, I do think that sending Price to the bullpen is an overreaction, but I can understand the sentiment.

[Kimmi]

Agreed with this. I haven't complained too much about the Sox in recent years. Seeing them win 3 World Series and I am only 30 years old is a pretty amazing thing. I think the Sox fans can be a tad dramatic and spoiled at times. Making playoffs isn't good enough unless we win the World Series. People forget how hard it actually is to make it to the World Series let alone win it. I consider myself pretty lucky as I live in Canada and all my friends are Jays fans. Poor buggers

 

Fans of most other teams would kill to be in our shoes.

[Kimmi]

Was it Henry or Lucchino's horrific self (Bobby Valentine's buddy) that drove Theo out the door. Tito was probably made the fall guy for Larry as well. Never forget that Francona and Epstein set the table for a great bunch of idiots to accomplish the WS wins that nobody since Babe F'ing Ruth was on the Sox roster.

 

I think it was Lucchino that drove Theo out the door, and Henry let him walk.

 

Tito and Theo were the best.

[Kimmi]

There are those who still believe Theo walks on water.

 

{Proudly raises her hand.}

[S5Dewey]

Yes, Dombrowski finished the plan. Cherington would have finished it as well, had he been given the opportunity to do so. I can almost guarantee you that Cherington would have traded some of his prospects in 2016, and that the Sox would have been in the playoffs with whatever moves Cherington made. The team was already set.

 

I'm not arguing any results. I have said time and time again, that Dombrowski has set the team up well for the short term.

 

There's been a lot said about the impending cliff but as things now stand I'm willing to be happy with what we've got. While we may be able to say that Cherington would have finished the plan as well, right now we're able to compete with the Yankees and I question whether Ben would have been able to keep us competitive this year plus into the future.

 

As much as I hate to say this it looks to me like the Yankees are going to be good for several years and if we're going to be competitive we should do it in 2018 while our ducks are in a row. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather finish first this year and 3rd in the next three years than finish second every year.

[oldtimer]

Agreed with this. I haven't complained too much about the Sox in recent years. Seeing them win 3 World Series and I am only 30 years old is a pretty amazing thing. I think the Sox fans can be a tad dramatic and spoiled at times. Making playoffs isn't good enough unless we win the World Series. People forget how hard it actually is to make it to the World Series let alone win it. I consider myself pretty lucky as I live in Canada and all my friends are Jays fans. Poor buggers

 

My dad, bless his soul, went from 1918 (22 yrs old) to his demise in 1978 and hungered for a WS win all that time. He would have had a long wait to 2004 to see one. When you have a chance, you have to jump on it. As fans of the Sox, part of the fun is being able to speculate on ways to improve our chances. This is a different age and time, but we have a real chance this year so there is that excitement.

[cp176]

Looking at things objectively : Cherington presided over back to back dismal , cellar dwelling teams. He fully deserved to be fired. Dombrowski took over and immediately produced back to back division winners. ( We all know that anything can happen in the post season ). Dombrowski has acquired Sale , Kimbrel , Martinez , Price and others. He traded some prospects , kept some of the best and got rid of some dead wood. We currently have the best record in baseball , with a very realistic shot to win it all. Now , if he had held onto the traded prospects , do you really think we could now get better than the likes of Sale and Kimbrel for them. I don't think so. I fully understand the love for Theo , but the longing for Cherington and his " five year plan " is very misplaced. Excessive worry about the future years is not necessary. This is a big time franchise. Things have a way of working out. We are much better off with Dombrowski.

 

So ok now I bet you are seeing how it works here. You are upset with 30 pages of discussion based around the merits of keeping or possibly seeing JBJ being traded. Here we are at 35 on a thread dealing with our starting pitching and the discussion reverts back to an old tired one. For the record I agree with your opinion. No one really knows what or for whom Cherington would have traded for. A "pretty sure he would have" could be equally countered with "but maybe he wouldn't have". No one knows. It is basically the same as people here claiming that they know Theo left because of LL's presence. DD has the job and to date he has done it very well. Yup - he could have kept the so called prospects at the expense of not making the signings that he has made. That sounds like a lot of fun - Not. There are many ways to build a winner and it kind of looks as though he believes in a combination of ways to get it done. Personally I could care less about who the better GM is or was - I really like this team and the direction it has taken from a personnel perspective. This is what we do here and it is fun - rehash tired topics.

[MADSTORK]

Time to fess up STORK. Who is your team?

 

 

All you Poster's are great Sox fans! I respect all your opinions.

 

I'm here to keep it all in perspective for you guys and gals, thats all!

[MADSTORK]

Absolutely true

 

Henry has never been the problem...

 

Are you denying Luchinno wasn't a problem as well?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

During the SOX's 3 WS's titles, perhaps the most important player to have made that happen was Ortiz. From what I've read and heard, Pedro was the most important factor in convincing the SOX FO to go after David.

[notin]

Are you denying Luchinno wasn't a problem as well?

 

I don’t know if he was but I think there is a very strong tendency on this board to blame bad moves solely on Lucchino...

[notin]

During the SOX's 3 WS's titles, perhaps the most important player to have made that happen was Ortiz. From what I've read and heard, Pedro was the most important factor in convincing the SOX FO to go after David.

 

Players make recommendations all the time. The GM still has to acquire the player.

 

Pedro probably recommended several players to the Sox brass. Perhaps he was also pushing for Ramiro Mendoza. Do we all get to remove that black mark from the GM?

[cp176]

I don’t know if he was but I think there is a very strong tendency on this board to blame bad moves solely on Lucchino...

 

I agree with you very much here. Larry Lucchino has served as a great scapegoat for anything that happened that was bad during his time in Boston. Maybe the criticism is justified but I sure don't know and I think that I have read quite a bit all the goings on. In my book, no one wears a halo when dealing with a professional sports franchise.

[notin]

I agree with you very much here. Larry Lucchino has served as a great scapegoat for anything that happened that was bad during his time in Boston. Maybe the criticism is justified but I sure don't know and I think that I have read quite a bit all the goings on. In my book, no one wears a halo when dealing with a professional sports franchise.

 

I think a big factor was always that Lucchino spoke about himself as more of a businessman than a sorts guy and fans leapt to the conclusion everything with him was financial and it did make him look unlikeable.

 

But the guy worked for sports franchises for his entire career and probably enjoyed the winning teams as much as we did. And he certainly knew more about sports than any of us...

[a700hitter]

During the SOX's 3 WS's titles, perhaps the most important player to have made that happen was Ortiz. From what I've read and heard, Pedro was the most important factor in convincing the SOX FO to go after David.

And it is based on nothing but completely unsupported opinion and a desire to exonerate the GM for bad moves.

[cp176]

I think a big factor was always that Lucchino spoke about himself as more of a businessman than a sorts guy and fans leapt to the conclusion everything with him was financial and it did make him look unlikeable.

 

But the guy worked for sports franchises for his entire career and probably enjoyed the winning teams as much as we did. And he certainly knew more about sports than any of us...

 

Good insights.

[S5Dewey]

I think a big factor was always that Lucchino spoke about himself as more of a businessman than a sorts guy and fans leapt to the conclusion everything with him was financial and it did make him look unlikeable.

 

But the guy worked for sports franchises for his entire career and probably enjoyed the winning teams as much as we did. And he certainly knew more about sports than any of us...

 

In listening to Lucchino I never got the idea that he knew a lot about sports. I always felt that his forte, his role in management, was that he knew how to make money.

Of course I also felt that he had all the personality of a STOP sign so that may have influenced my opinion.

[Maxbialystock]

During the SOX's 3 WS's titles, perhaps the most important player to have made that happen was Ortiz. From what I've read and heard, Pedro was the most important factor in convincing the SOX FO to go after David.

 

Meh. Manny was pretty key in 2004 and 2007--just ask Ortiz. Manny was WS MVP in 2004 and Mike Lowell in 2007. Plus don't forget the pitchers both years. In 2013 Big Papi was finally the WS MVP, but the pitching was important there too.

 

Great, however, that Pedro was pushing management to get Ortiz because he absolutely was a steal and thrived in Boston where many don't.

[notin]

In listening to Lucchino I never got the idea that he knew a lot about sports. I always felt that his forte, his role in management, was that he knew how to make money.

Of course I also felt that he had all the personality of a STOP sign so that may have influenced my opinion.

 

That seems to be a good summary of what people think. But the guy worked in sports for decades. While he might not have been among the most knowledgeable sports executives, he was very likely much brighter on the subject than many give him credit for being...

[notin]

And it is based on nothing but completely unsupported opinion and a desire to exonerate the GM for bad moves.

 

Or to vilify Lucchino. But it was always less supported and more about what some people wanted to believe.

 

He was probably instrumental in a bad move here and there. But he was not likely as bad as the universal scapegoat he is portrayed to be...

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Meh. Manny was pretty key in 2004 and 2007--just ask Ortiz. Manny was WS MVP in 2004 and Mike Lowell in 2007. Plus don't forget the pitchers both years. In 2013 Big Papi was finally the WS MVP, but the pitching was important there too.

 

Great, however, that Pedro was pushing management to get Ortiz because he absolutely was a steal and thrived in Boston where many don't.

 

If I'm not mistaken, a team has to make it to the WS before it has a chance to win it.

[a700hitter]

Or to vilify Lucchino. But it was always less supported and more about what some people wanted to believe.

 

He was probably instrumental in a bad move here and there. But he was not likely as bad as the universal scapegoat he is portrayed to be...

And I don’t doubt that he was an unlikeable guy, and that is why people wanted to attribute bad out comes to him.

[dgalehouse]

Meh. Manny was pretty key in 2004 and 2007--just ask Ortiz. Manny was WS MVP in 2004 and Mike Lowell in 2007. Plus don't forget the pitchers both years. In 2013 Big Papi was finally the WS MVP, but the pitching was important there too.

 

Great, however, that Pedro was pushing management to get Ortiz because he absolutely was a steal and thrived in Boston where many don't.

 

A number of players made significant contributions to our three recent championships. Manny and Lowell among them. However , I think it is fair to say that without David Ortiz , we would currently be looking at a 100 year curse of the Bambino.