Fire alex cora

[cp176]

Who me?!?

 

Let me ask you this. Do you wish our GM had waited until after the season to sign Chris sale to further contract that has 8 figures attached to it?

 

A serious answer - Looking back at it from today's perspective -yes. But I was super excited that we signed him long term and still am. The Pearce contract took me by surprise for sure I will admit. It was a good reward for him I guess. With respect to Sale, I felt that based on what he gave for so long, he was very much underpaid. I still am a believer and think that he he will be once again very effective. Oh - I think that the Eovaldi signing was a gamble but I hope that the thought was that we would have a pretty solid pitching staff moving forward. Plans just don't always seem to work out.

[notin]

Of course.

 

That's why I say the real onus is/was on the docs.

 

I also wonder if there was any discussion on having some sort of medical clause in the contract, like with Lackey's and others. Needless to say, players and their agents hate that s***.

 

The thing is, I’d gamble 10 times out of 10 on that Sale contract before giving that deal to Eovaldi. And I’d go all in on Eovaldi before giving that deal to Price.

 

But DD went all in for all three. And had me not been fired, would he be going 10 years $250 mill for Gerrit Cole?

[illinoisredsox]

And had me not been fired, would he be going 10 years $250 mill for Gerrit Cole?

 

No, but only because Henry has put a lid on salaries for now.

 

And no way I sign ANY pitcher to a ten year contract; don't care if it's the reincarnation of 17 year old Bob Feller.

[Larry Cook]

The hard reality is our starting pitching staff is full of sore armed pitchers. (Thanks desperate dave)

 

We should not be trying to sign a mega deal with anybody. We should let agents use us to other teams as a stalking horse, because then they will owe us in the future.

 

Our plan should be:

 

1.) hits freidman as head of baseball operations.

 

2.) sign 1 year prove it deals for certain pitchers and have them earn a long term contract from someone else.

 

3.) get someone for the back end of the bullpen!

[Slasher9]

A serious answer - Looking back at it from today's perspective -yes. But I was super excited that we signed him long term and still am. The Pearce contract took me by surprise for sure I will admit. It was a good reward for him I guess. With respect to Sale, I felt that based on what he gave for so long, he was very much underpaid. I still am a believer and think that he he will be once again very effective. Oh - I think that the Eovaldi signing was a gamble but I hope that the thought was that we would have a pretty solid pitching staff moving forward. Plans just don't always seem to work out.

 

Fair. And I agree with all this.

[cp176]

Fair. And I agree with all this.

 

I'm also coming to grips with the silliness of the long term hundreds of million dollar contracts. Doesn't look to me like they are paying the types of returns that owners assumed they would. I would absolutely love to see Betts sign and stay in Boston. I think that he is one of those generational talents but he is only one person and to date he hasn't pitched. I don't think that signing him to one of those 10 year 300 million dollar contracts would make any sense at all. As many times as we see these great players come, there always seems to be another just around the corner.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm also coming to grips with the silliness of the long term hundreds of million dollar contracts. Doesn't look to me like they are paying the types of returns that owners assumed they would. I would absolutely love to see Betts sign and stay in Boston. I think that he is one of those generational talents but he is only one person and to date he hasn't pitched. I don't think that signing him to one of those 10 year 300 million dollar contracts would make any sense at all. As many times as we see these great players come, there always seems to be another just around the corner.

 

Players like Betts are pretty rare. He's one of the very best our farm system has ever produced. The best since Jim Rice, I would say.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm also coming to grips with the silliness of the long term hundreds of million dollar contracts. Doesn't look to me like they are paying the types of returns that owners assumed they would. I would absolutely love to see Betts sign and stay in Boston. I think that he is one of those generational talents but he is only one person and to date he hasn't pitched. I don't think that signing him to one of those 10 year 300 million dollar contracts would make any sense at all. As many times as we see these great players come, there always seems to be another just around the corner.

 

I'd rather the players get millions than the owners pocketing that money. The owners make billions off the player's backs, I have no issue with them trying to get as much of it as they can. I do have issue with the owners putting in a lux tax to cap their expenditures and have zero floor provisions. The teams spending the least amount of money also get revenue sharing. They're being subsidized to suck and their owners are taking the money right to the bank

[cp176]

I'd rather the players get millions than the owners pocketing that money. The owners make billions off the player's backs, I have no issue with them trying to get as much of it as they can. I do have issue with the owners putting in a lux tax to cap their expenditures and have zero floor provisions. The teams spending the least amount of money also get revenue sharing. They're being subsidized to suck and their owners are taking the money right to the bank

 

It would amaze me in a somewhat negative way if the players didn't at least try to get as much as they could from the uber wealthy owners. I'm just not sure that what you are going to get for that 3oo million dollar contract is going to make you all that much better.

[cp176]

Players like Betts are pretty rare. He's one of the very best our farm system has ever produced. The best since Jim Rice, I would say.

 

 

I think that he is as good as it gets.

[notin]

Players like Betts are pretty rare. He's one of the very best our farm system has ever produced. The best since Jim Rice, I would say.

 

Better than Boggs?

[Bellhorn04]

Better than Boggs?

 

I knew I was forgetting someone.

 

The best since Boggs.

[jacksonianmarch]

It would amaze me in a somewhat negative way if the players didn't at least try to get as much as they could from the uber wealthy owners. I'm just not sure that what you are going to get for that 3oo million dollar contract is going to make you all that much better.

 

As with every negotiation, you're not just doing it for yourself. The goal is to set things up for the guys after you. And let's be honest, Mookie owes the sox nothing. He has been mostly a pay for performance player who got paid league minimum for 3 yrs and has to this point put up 37.2WAR in his 5+ seasons of control to this point. Maybe he aspires to own a team one day. Significant capital is needed for that venture. Who knows, but you cannot begrudge him for seeing what he's worth on the open market. We all should do it for what we do. His dollar figures are just on a far larger scale

[Bellhorn04]

And let's be honest, Mookie owes the sox nothing.

 

Are there any players who do owe their teams something, other than fulfilling their current contracts?

[jacksonianmarch]

There are definitely players who left effort on the table after getting paid. Those guys owe something to their franchise.

[Jack Flap]

Players like Betts are pretty rare. He's one of the very best our farm system has ever produced. The best since Jim Rice, I would say.

 

If not longer.

 

There have been 13 seasons of at least 9.5 bWAR by a position player in franchise history: 5 belong to Ted Williams, 3 to Yaz, 2 to Tris Speaker. Mookie Betts has done it twice, and counting.

 

(Trivia question: who had the one remaining season? No cheating!)

[Jack Flap]

Barring some team getting desperate and stupid (which certainly could happen, but is never a great thing to have to count on), any trade offers we're likely to get this winter will pale in comparison to a talent like that.

 

Pay the man his money.

[moonslav59]

Better than Boggs?

 

Yes. Best since Rice & Lynn.

[moonslav59]

Barring some team getting desperate and stupid (which certainly could happen, but is never a great thing to have to count on), any trade offers we're likely to get this winter will pale in comparison to a talent like that.

 

Pay the man his money.

 

We can trade him and then re-sign him. Best of both worlds.

[vegasbob]

Are there any players who do owe their teams something, other than fulfilling their current contracts?

 

Pablo F'ing Sandoval. Carl F'ing Crawford among others.

[moonslav59]

If not longer.

 

There have been 13 seasons of at least 9.5 bWAR by a position player in franchise history: 5 belong to Ted Williams, 3 to Yaz, 2 to Tris Speaker. Mookie Betts has done it twice, and counting.

 

(Trivia question: who had the one remaining season? No cheating!)

 

Pedro?

[notin]

Yes. Best since Rice & Lynn.

 

I think you have to cut the Hall of Famers a little slack. Boggs is in Cooperstown. Betts is not. Betts might be one day, but I wouldn’t say he has already earned it. As in, if Mookie retired today, would he get into Cooperstown?

 

In fact, since we are only talking about players from the Sox farm and no one said they had to actually play for the Sox, is Betts better than Bagwell was?

[notin]

Pedro?

 

He specifically said “position player.”

[notin]

If not longer.

 

There have been 13 seasons of at least 9.5 bWAR by a position player in franchise history: 5 belong to Ted Williams, 3 to Yaz, 2 to Tris Speaker. Mookie Betts has done it twice, and counting.

 

(Trivia question: who had the one remaining season? No cheating!)

 

I would hope it’s that 1919 season for Babe Ruth when he hit 29 home runs (which set the MLB record) on a team that only hit 32.

 

Otherwise it’s a defensive whiz who had a great offensive season, making me think Ellsbury’s 30-30 season or Beltre’s one season or the year Youkilis hit 29 and got a Gold Glove. But I think 9.5 bWAR is tough for a 1b. Or Vern Stephens, but I don’t know how he was as a fielder.

 

So Ruth, Ellsbury, Beltre or Stephens?

[jacksonianmarch]

Betts is better than Rice. He’s averaging 7 WAR since his career started. Rice had 50 WAR thru his career. Betts is at 35. If Betts keeps up the pace, he’ll match Rice’s WAR before he turns 30. Looking at Rice’s career, it’s a wonder he made the HOF. Edited October 14, 2019 by jacksonianmarch

[notin]

Betts is better than Rice. He’s averaging 7 WAR since his career started

 

Yeah but a lot of WAR has to be retrofitted and it’s not clear how they are backfilling defensive data...

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah but a lot of WAR has to be retrofitted and it’s not clear how they are backfilling defensive data...

 

That’s true as well. But I’d be shocked if Rice played even close to Betts level defensively.

[Jack Flap]

I would hope it’s that 1919 season for Babe Ruth when he hit 29 home runs (which set the MLB record) on a team that only hit 32.

 

Otherwise it’s a defensive whiz who had a great offensive season, making me think Ellsbury’s 30-30 season or Beltre’s one season or the year Youkilis hit 29 and got a Gold Glove. But I think 9.5 bWAR is tough for a 1b. Or Vern Stephens, but I don’t know how he was as a fielder.

 

So Ruth, Ellsbury, Beltre or Stephens?

 

All excellent guesses (and a close call on Ruth, who was worth 9.1 bWAR as a hitter and 0.8 as a pitcher in 1919), but the winner is one I wouldn't have gotten, either: Rico Petrocelli's 10.0 bWAR in 1969.

[notin]

That’s true as well. But I’d be shocked if Rice played even close to Betts level defensively.

 

It he hit pretty well pre-Manfred Missile...

[Kimmi]

What word would you have chosen had DD also traded Beni, Devers, ERod, DHern and others?

 

The farm was decimated either way. When a farm goes from top 3 to bottom 3 in a matter of 2 years, that is decimation. That's what I'm basing my opinion on.