Fire alex cora

[Bellhorn04]

What term do you prefer to use for calling trading multiple prospects for numerous major leaguers with varying degrees of effectiveness? Do you prefer “eradicated”?

 

I'm not sure why "traded" doesn't still work.

[Slasher9]

I'm not sure why "traded" doesn't still work.

 

i thought we were talking about what to refer to the Farm as?

i never heard a Farm referred to as traded. stocked, loaded, decimated, empty all come to mind. but traded isn't a term i have ever heard to describe Farm.

[Bellhorn04]

i thought we were talking about what to refer to the Farm as?

i never heard a Farm referred to as traded. stocked, loaded, decimated, empty all come to mind. but traded isn't a term i have ever heard to describe Farm.

 

I believe that over the course of history, farmers have traded harvested crops for other goods.

[moonslav59]

I think it's a little weird to look at it that every time you trade a prospect for an MLB player you're doing something destructive. Especially when it's a good, fair trade.

 

I looked at the Sale and Beckett-Lowell trades as great trades at the times and in hindsight, but I knew we were giving up something special and damaging another area of the team, namely the extended future.

Again, I'm fine with these types of trades and have suggested hundreds and hundreds of them over the years.

The sheer magnitude of the prospect trades made by DD in just a two year period justifies some harsh or hyperbolic language. Certainly going from #4 to #30 is a massive drop off in one area of the team structure. No matter what you call it, it was significant. Most of us that have been critical to varying degrees have said it was worth it, but to me, that doesn't change the fact that we must now pay the price for the 2018 ring and 3 division titles.

I'm glad DD got us a ring. While I've benn critical of him pretty often, I view him as an overall plus.

[notin]

I believe that over the course of history, farmers have traded harvested crops for other goods.

 

Please stop this analogy...

[Bellhorn04]

Please stop this analogy...

 

It wasn't me who started all the destroyed/decimated the farm s***.

 

If others will stop with it I gladly will too.

[Bellhorn04]

The sheer magnitude of the prospect trades made by DD in just a two year period justifies some harsh or hyperbolic language. Certainly going from #4 to #30 is a massive drop off in one area of the team structure. No matter what you call it, it was significant.

 

It's a phase in the cycle and it's temporary and fixable.

 

The Cubs have had a similar dip in their rankings over the last several years too, I think.

 

I believe the Yankees have also had a significant recent dip with all the trades they've made.

[Slasher9]

It wasn't me who started all the destroyed/decimated the farm s***.

 

If others will stop with it I gladly will too.

 

[Jack Flap]

The real problem, IMO, is not that Dombrowski traded so many prospects...almost all of his moves directly contributed to three straight division titles and a championship, and although I didn't love some of them at the time they were made, I see no point in going back and continuing to second-guess them now given the end result.

 

The problem is that we have traded and graduated a lot of impressive prospects in recent years but have struggled to replace them in kind. Even with the many trades, I have a hard time believing that the system's rankings would have cratered overnight the way they did if the player development pipeline was flowing as it should. Some of that is due to changes in the draft and international rules, and some of it amounts to just striking out on evaluating/developing talent.

 

I certainly don't place all of the blame for that on Dave (our well-known failure to develop starting pitching, for instance, stretches back into the late Theo period), but if I was John Henry and wanted to know what has gone wrong in recent years and what could be done better to set the organization up for sustainable long-term success, this is where I would want to start my inquiry.

[notin]

It wasn't me who started all the destroyed/decimated the farm s***.

 

If others will stop with it I gladly will too.

 

I just want the farm analogy to stop. It’s a bad analogy.

 

But talking about the state of the Sox farm seems to be relevant to the purpose of the forum, right?

[Slasher9]

I just want the farm analogy to stop. It’s a bad analogy.

 

But talking about the state of the Sox farm seems to be relevant to the purpose of the forum, right?

 

Ben's Farm:

 

DD's Farm:

[cp176]

It's a phase in the cycle and it's temporary and fixable.

 

The Cubs have had a similar dip in their rankings over the last several years too, I think.

 

I believe the Yankees have also had a significant recent dip with all the trades they've made.

 

I'm just sitting here watching the world go round and round. I'm starting to get a chuckle out of this. There just doesn't seem to be any real compromise with some folks. You either believe what they believe or you are off the island. No one is always right or wrong. To quote Moon - "why is that so hard to understand?"

You folks who believe that our farm system was obliterated aren't going to change your minds nor are you particularly open to other points of view. There were obvious reasons why its' ranking went from very good to one of the worst. Conjure up this one for me though - How in the hell can it possibly go from 30+ to 22 in a few short months? I know that you all will have a bevy of reasons that you agree on. Pardon my if I don't see it just the way you do. I don't care what the rankings say any more than I do about the people doing the rankings. It seems to me to be just a tad subjective - too much for me. Now come on, huddle up and give me all of your reasons why we seem to be moving toward the top 20. Got to be because DD is gone don't you think.

[cp176]

It's a phase in the cycle and it's temporary and fixable.

 

The Cubs have had a similar dip in their rankings over the last several years too, I think.

 

I believe the Yankees have also had a significant recent dip with all the trades they've made.

 

I used your post to respond to but you have to know that I think that you are one of the reasonable rational posters here. You and Slasher too ! lol

[cp176]

The real problem, IMO, is not that Dombrowski traded so many prospects...almost all of his moves directly contributed to three straight division titles and a championship, and although I didn't love some of them at the time they were made, I see no point in going back and continuing to second-guess them now given the end result.

 

The problem is that we have traded and graduated a lot of impressive prospects in recent years but have struggled to replace them in kind. Even with the many trades, I have a hard time believing that the system's rankings would have cratered overnight the way they did if the player development pipeline was flowing as it should. Some of that is due to changes in the draft and international rules, and some of it amounts to just striking out on evaluating/developing talent.

 

I certainly don't place all of the blame for that on Dave (our well-known failure to develop starting pitching, for instance, stretches back into the late Theo period), but if I was John Henry and wanted to know what has gone wrong in recent years and what could be done better to set the organization up for sustainable long-term success, this is where I would want to start my inquiry.

 

this I think is a thoughtful post - not irrational enough to get a post of the day shout out from the gang but it works for me.

[notin]

The real problem, IMO, is not that Dombrowski traded so many prospects...almost all of his moves directly contributed to three straight division titles and a championship, and although I didn't love some of them at the time they were made, I see no point in going back and continuing to second-guess them now given the end result.

 

The problem is that we have traded and graduated a lot of impressive prospects in recent years but have struggled to replace them in kind. Even with the many trades, I have a hard time believing that the system's rankings would have cratered overnight the way they did if the player development pipeline was flowing as it should. Some of that is due to changes in the draft and international rules, and some of it amounts to just striking out on evaluating/developing talent.

 

I certainly don't place all of the blame for that on Dave (our well-known failure to develop starting pitching, for instance, stretches back into the late Theo period), but if I was John Henry and wanted to know what has gone wrong in recent years and what could be done better to set the organization up for sustainable long-term success, this is where I would want to start my inquiry.

 

The only thing I would say is missing is also that the Sox are also left with what could be some truly awful deals that limit their ability to sidestep the issue of no upcoming prospects. And sure, any contract can go bad, but the deals given to Price, Sale and Eovaldi are all already in a position where the Sox are waiting for them to produce, not waiting or them to go bad.

 

And really, there was something stupid about each one from the outset. Price? Seven years for a 31 year old pitcher means you’re hoping for 4 good seasons. Eovaldi’s health history made it questionable before the ink dried. And Sale was coming off an injury, and any notion the DD clearly checked him out before putting this deal together immediately came into question about 3 innings into Sale’s season when his diminished velocity lead to him getting battered about by a rebuilding team...

[Slasher9]

there was zero reason to give sale the extension prior to seasons end. DD is a buffoon.

[Jack Flap]

this I think is a thoughtful post - not irrational enough to get a post of the day shout out from the gang but it works for me.

 

Hey, I'll take what I can get!

 

The only thing I would say is missing is also that the Sox are also left with what could be some truly awful deals that limit their ability to sidestep the issue of no upcoming prospects. And sure, any contract can go bad, but the deals given to Price, Sale and Eovaldi are all already in a position where the Sox are waiting for them to produce, not waiting or them to go bad.

 

And really, there was something stupid about each one from the outset. Price? Seven years for a 31 year old pitcher means you’re hoping for 4 good seasons. Eovaldi’s health history made it questionable before the ink dried. And Sale was coming off an injury, and any notion the DD clearly checked him out before putting this deal together immediately came into question about 3 innings into Sale’s season when his diminished velocity lead to him getting battered about by a rebuilding team...

 

 

Kind of shifting gears to a different issue there, but yeah...a diminished farm and a tapped-out payroll is a recipe for a lot of trouble.

 

I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall for some of the conversations between Dombrowski and ownership over the past 12 months, because I have a lot of questions about how the Eovaldi and Sale signings went down given Henry's statements this month that:

1) he and DD had serious disagreements about the direction of the team as early as the end of the World Series; and

2) that the owners have known they were going to need to re-set the tax for at least a year.

 

If both of those are true, it's hard to understand why Dave's spending wasn't tamped down sooner, and how he was allowed to give out those contracts, which have now put us in a position of likely having to say goodbye to either JD or Mookie (if not both) this winter in addition to others. I know we're meant to believe that this financial mess is all Dave's fault, but I suspect ownership didn't have quite the grasp on the situation that they should have had, either. As I said...many questions...

[notin]

Hey, I'll take what I can get!

 

 

 

 

Kind of shifting gears to a different issue there, but yeah...a diminished farm and a tapped-out payroll is a recipe for a lot of trouble.

 

I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall for some of the conversations between Dombrowski and ownership over the past 12 months, because I have a lot of questions about how the Eovaldi and Sale signings went down given Henry's statements this month that:

1) he and DD had serious disagreements about the direction of the team as early as the end of the World Series; and

2) that the owners have known they were going to need to re-set the tax for at least a year.

 

If both of those are true, it's hard to understand why Dave's spending wasn't tamped down sooner, and how he was allowed to give out those contracts, which have now put us in a position of likely having to say goodbye to either JD or Mookie (if not both) this winter in addition to others. I know we're meant to believe that this financial mess is all Dave's fault, but I suspect ownership didn't have quite the grasp on the situation that they should have had, either. As I said...many questions...

 

Well, in most cases, the depletion of the farm was prospects who were well spent. No one, for example, dislikes the Sale trade. But the subsequent contracts have made maneuvering without a farm that much more difficult...

[moonslav59]

The real problem, IMO, is not that Dombrowski traded so many prospects...almost all of his moves directly contributed to three straight division titles and a championship, and although I didn't love some of them at the time they were made, I see no point in going back and continuing to second-guess them now given the end result.

 

The problem is that we have traded and graduated a lot of impressive prospects in recent years but have struggled to replace them in kind. Even with the many trades, I have a hard time believing that the system's rankings would have cratered overnight the way they did if the player development pipeline was flowing as it should. Some of that is due to changes in the draft and international rules, and some of it amounts to just striking out on evaluating/developing talent.

 

I certainly don't place all of the blame for that on Dave (our well-known failure to develop starting pitching, for instance, stretches back into the late Theo period), but if I was John Henry and wanted to know what has gone wrong in recent years and what could be done better to set the organization up for sustainable long-term success, this is where I would want to start my inquiry.

 

I'm fine with ending the second-guessing and blame game on all past GMs, but when talking about where we are right now, I'm not going to sugar coat the state of our farm and how difficult it will be to rebuild it to top 10 or top 5 status under the new rules as long as we keep spending big an never getting top 10 or 15 draft picks.

 

It is what it is. We have to deal with what we have. What gets me the most, and I don't mean this as any specific criticism towards any one poster here is that there was a general position held by many that trading potential is fine, even trading almost all of it was fine, because you can't count on prospects for jack. Now, there seems to be a general position by some that we should put our faith in a 22nd ranked farm and in our mechanisms that will improve that farm back to top whatever status and that players like Chavis and Dalbec are somehow going to lead us to the promise land. When we talk about losing Moncada, Kopech, Allen, Dubon, Espi and others, we were told they haven't don't anything since we traded them, or that that's what prospects are for- trading. Now, I'm supposed to believe Chavis, Dalbec & D Hern are something different or more than all the highly ranked prospects we traded away 2-4 years ago?

 

Am I missing something?

 

We were wrong to have so much faith in our prospects back then, and told it was right to trade them almost all away, and now I'm expected to pretend our farm is better than it is, that our young talent recognition people are the smartest in the business, and that although the system is rigged against us, I am now supposed to believe our weak farm will save us.

 

We don't need to trade anyone. We are the freaking Boston red Sox, and we should never have to have a down year or two. Everything will work out, and if it doesn't, it's because a greedy Henry won't spend more than the bottom 5 spending teams combined.

 

I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid.

[Bellhorn04]

there was zero reason to give sale the extension prior to seasons end. DD is a buffoon.

 

We know that Henry was fully on board with that. He was the one who said they didn't want to repeat the mistake they made with Lester.

 

And if Sale was 100% Chris Freakin' Sale, it was a discount deal.

 

I just can't understand how the docs could fail to detect his arm issues. Do we have substandard equipment or something?

[notin]

I just can't understand how the docs could fail to detect his arm issues. Do we have substandard equipment or something?

 

They only know how to examine right arms...

[Slasher9]

wrong thread.

[cp176]

there was zero reason to give sale the extension prior to seasons end. DD is a buffoon.

 

A buffoon says you???

Just when i get ready to retire for a while, you throw this at me. Come on man, I need my rest. It'll be good for you all.

 

I think that you are doing this on purpose just to keep me around! lol

As our farm system continues to climb in the rankings for no apparent reason can we at least get an atta boy for poor old out of work DD?

[Bellhorn04]

As our farm system continues to climb in the rankings for no apparent reason can we at least get an atta boy for poor old out of work DD?

 

As you know, DD stands for Destruction and Decimation.

[Slasher9]

A buffoon says you???

Just when i get ready to retire for a while, you throw this at me. Come on man, I need my rest. It'll be good for you all.

 

I think that you are doing this on purpose just to keep me around! lol

As our farm system continues to climb in the rankings for no apparent reason can we at least get an atta boy for poor old out of work DD?

 

Who me?!?

 

Let me ask you this. Do you wish our GM had waited until after the season to sign Chris sale to further contract that has 8 figures attached to it?

[Bellhorn04]

Who me?!?

 

Let me ask you this. Do you wish our GM had waited until after the season to sign Chris sale to further contract that has 8 figures attached to it?

 

I think we all do now.

 

But it's very common for players to say they will negotiate an extension in the offseason, but not once the season starts.

 

Obviously that puts more risk on the team, but should lower the amount of the contract.

[notin]

We know that Henry was fully on board with that. He was the one who said they didn't want to repeat the mistake they made with Lester.

 

And if Sale was 100% Chris Freakin' Sale, it was a discount deal.

 

I just can't understand how the docs could fail to detect his arm issues. Do we have substandard equipment or something?

 

Has anyone considered the possibility that the reason Sale signed the contract in the first place is he knew or strongly suspected he wasn’t 100%? And that maybe if he was 100%, he would never have signed that deal?

[S5Dewey]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the reason Sale signed the contract in the first place is he knew or strongly suspected he wasn’t 100%? And that maybe if he was 100%, he would never have signed that deal?

 

Anything is possible but this post sounds like 'guilt by innuendo'.

 

Don't tell a lie, just ask a question. Plant the seed then watch it grow.

[Bellhorn04]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the reason Sale signed the contract in the first place is he knew or strongly suspected he wasn’t 100%? And that maybe if he was 100%, he would never have signed that deal?

 

Of course.

 

That's why I say the real onus is/was on the docs.

 

I also wonder if there was any discussion on having some sort of medical clause in the contract, like with Lackey's and others. Needless to say, players and their agents hate that s***.

[moonslav59]

I was glad we extended Sale, despite the injury concerns. I also thought he would have gotten considerably more had he been a FA last winter. That, alone, is a good reason to make the deal.

 

Hindsight is 20-20, and right now the deal looks bad or sketchy, but true hindsight judgment is yet to come.

 

I still have faith in...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale!