Fire alex cora

[Kimmi]

Ben was GM for the Boston Red Sox from 2012-2015 seasons.

Let's look at the Bleacher Report Farm Rankings from 2011 (season prior to Ben) thru right now (end of DD's tenure).

2011 rank: 20

Ben takes over

2012 rank: 10

2013 rank: 4 (PARADE)

2014 rank: 3

2015 rank: 4

Ben gone / DD in

2016 rank: 4

2017 rank: 23

2018 rank: 28 (PARADE)

2019 rank: 30

DD gone / ?? in

 

pretty sure DD decimated the Farm. do you see it another way CP?

 

Post of the day.

[Kimmi]

I get it. But don’t you think if JH thought Ben was on the right track in directing the team, that he wouldn’t have fired him?

 

It is a well known fact that Henry panics.

[a700hitter]

It is a well known fact that Henry panics.

Hedge fund managers are not known for impulse plays.

[Kimmi]

Let's be real, when DD came on board it was the equivalent of kicking Ben in the privates.

 

I agree with this. Saying that Ben wasn't fired is basically semantics.

[a700hitter]

I agree with this. Saying that Ben wasn't fired is basically semantics.

Saying that he wasn’t fired is an alternative universe, not semantics.

[cp176]

Post of the day.

 

Look at you Slasher - you got two posts of the day from Kimmi. My goodness, try to control your impulses.

Oh by the way, thinning out the farm to greatly improve the team in my estimation is not a decimation.

[moonslav59]

Look at you Slasher - you got two posts of the day from Kimmi. My goodness, try to control your impulses.

Oh by the way, thinning out the farm to greatly improve the team in my estimation is not a decimation.

 

So, if we traded every single prospect, but it led to a ring, you wouldn't call that one part of the team, the farm, decimated?

[oldtimer]

It is a well known fact that Henry panics.

 

I don't see that as a fact. Its a fact that Henry acts.

[notin]

I wouldn't look too deep into this.

 

Really so far, the only guy actually removed from the organization was Andy Barkett, the assistant hitting coach.

 

LeVangie was reassigned to a former position. Bannister seemingly was promoted. Both are still employed by the Boston Red Sox. To say this is the work or some recently hired Shadow GM makes no sense.

 

The only guy gone was only an assistant hitting coach. Not only is that about as small of a role as their is on the staff, but it might not even have been for baseball reasons, and might have been more personal. It's not like the Sox had to shake up the hitting...

[cp176]

So, if we traded every single prospect, but it led to a ring, you wouldn't call that one part of the team, the farm, decimated?

 

if every single worthy prospect was traded for nothing in return - yes i would call that decimation. We didn't and we didn't. Now I'm reading about someone thinks it a good idea to trade Bobby Dalbec because he is blocked. Confused in Maine

[notin]

if every single worthy prospect was traded for nothing in return - yes i would call that decimation. We didn't and we didn't. Now I'm reading about someone thinks it a good idea to trade Bobby Dalbec because he is blocked. Confused in Maine

 

You don't think Dalbec is blocked?

 

The Sox absoutly need to see what they can get for Dalbec. A big part of his value is the defensive play he brings to 3B. Unless the Sox are going to slide Devers over to 1B, what are they going to do with Dalbec? Put him at first base? It's a waste of his defense, a waste of his outstanding arm, and getting his bat into the lineup means the Sox are only trying to capitalize on the most questionable part of his game. The could try him at an entirely new position like RF or 2B, and maybe RF is a good idea, but only if they trade Betts.

 

Or they could let him rot in the minors while Devers puts up MVP numbers in Boston. It might be different if Devers was arb-eligible or 1 year from free agency, but the Sox are apparently looking to extend him, which puts Dalbec further into the hole.

 

Unless the Sox move Devers to 1b, which is possible, although I have no idea how likely it is...

[Slasher9]

I wouldn't look too deep into this.

 

Really so far, the only guy actually removed from the organization was Andy Barkett, the assistant hitting coach.

 

LeVangie was reassigned to a former position. Bannister seemingly was promoted. Both are still employed by the Boston Red Sox. To say this is the work or some recently hired Shadow GM makes no sense.

 

The only guy gone was only an assistant hitting coach. Not only is that about as small of a role as their is on the staff, but it might not even have been for baseball reasons, and might have been more personal. It's not like the Sox had to shake up the hitting...

 

this Dave Dombrowski guy was also removed from the Org......

[Slasher9]

if every single worthy prospect was traded for nothing in return - yes i would call that decimation. We didn't and we didn't. Now I'm reading about someone thinks it a good idea to trade Bobby Dalbec because he is blocked. Confused in Maine

 

but the Farm is now empty and ranked near last place of all Farms. and a few short years ago it was top 3. what would you call that?

so we got MLB pieces. that has nothing to do with stating the obvious fact that the Farm has been decimated.

what would you call a top 3 Farm that becomes a #30 Farm?

[jacksonianmarch]

but the Farm is now empty and ranked near last place of all Farms. and a few short years ago it was top 3. what would you call that?

so we got MLB pieces. that has nothing to do with stating the obvious fact that the Farm has been decimated.

what would you call a top 3 Farm that becomes a #30 Farm?

 

Decimating a farm to win a world series is fine...if you win the WS. You did, so it was worth it. DD's big sin was keeping the party going and throwing insane money at the team to keep them together instead of trying to upgrade them. If you're in lux tax hell and your farm is decimated, there is only one way to go, down

[Bellhorn04]

but the Farm is now empty and ranked near last place of all Farms. and a few short years ago it was top 3. what would you call that?

so we got MLB pieces. that has nothing to do with stating the obvious fact that the Farm has been decimated.

what would you call a top 3 Farm that becomes a #30 Farm?

 

Decimated means destroyed. It's not generally used to refer to a resource that has been utilized to advantage.

 

Sticking with the farm analogy, when farmers harvest their crops they don't usually call that 'decimating' their farm.

 

Semantics, perhaps, but I think we all know what we're talking about here.

[jacksonianmarch]

Decimated means destroyed. It's not generally used to refer to a resource that has been utilized to advantage.

 

Sticking with the farm analogy, when farmers harvest their crops they don't usually call that 'decimating' their farm.

 

Semantics, perhaps, but I think we all know what we're talking about here.

 

Baseball teams don't harvest their entire crop in the same season. They have multiple crops growing all the time. DD decided to harvest them all, salted the earth and misplaced the seeds

[Slasher9]

Decimated means destroyed. It's not generally used to refer to a resource that has been utilized to advantage.

 

Sticking with the farm analogy, when farmers harvest their crops they don't usually call that 'decimating' their farm.

 

Semantics, perhaps, but I think we all know what we're talking about here.

 

the word decimated no longer means what it was invented for. it meant killing 1 in 10 troops. now it means basically destroying everything with a few scraps remaining. i think we can all agree on that but i guess nowadays we cant fully agree on anything. to use your farm analogy.. if locusts destroy 95% of a certain farmers yield i would not be surprised to overhear him tell his pals "my crop was decimated by god damn locusts"...

[Slasher9]

Decimated means destroyed. It's not generally used to refer to a resource that has been utilized to advantage.

 

Sticking with the farm analogy, when farmers harvest their crops they don't usually call that 'decimating' their farm.

 

Semantics, perhaps, but I think we all know what we're talking about here.

 

i re-read this and get what you are saying. my counter would be.....the farmer doesnt leave that harvested land empty for the next few years. they immediately plant new crops in that soil and voila...another harvest the very next growing season.

 

what you describe is DD

what i describe is Ben

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball teams don't harvest their entire crop in the same season. They have multiple crops growing all the time. DD decided to harvest them all, salted the earth and misplaced the seeds

 

He harvested them in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That was 3 seasons - and 3 division titles.

[notin]

He harvested them in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That was 3 seasons - and 3 division titles.

 

Some replenishment would be nice...

[moonslav59]

if every single worthy prospect was traded for nothing in return - yes i would call that decimation. We didn't and we didn't. Now I'm reading about someone thinks it a good idea to trade Bobby Dalbec because he is blocked. Confused in Maine

 

To me, what we got in return is important but is a separate issue. Just because we get great returns for prospects traded does not change the fact that the farm was totally emptied (in my scenario).

 

One can argue it was worth it, but the farm would still be empty.

[moonslav59]

Decimating a farm to win a world series is fine...if you win the WS. You did, so it was worth it. DD's big sin was keeping the party going and throwing insane money at the team to keep them together instead of trying to upgrade them. If you're in lux tax hell and your farm is decimated, there is only one way to go, down

 

So, to you, his biggest sin was extending Sale and re-signing Eovaldi?

[moonslav59]

Baseball teams don't harvest their entire crop in the same season. They have multiple crops growing all the time. DD decided to harvest them all, salted the earth and misplaced the seeds

 

Wow, I'm really liking these farmer analogies!

[notin]

this Dave Dombrowski guy was also removed from the Org......

 

And therefore the Sox should never trade another single prospect regardless of the return?

 

A farm serves two purposes - trade bait and minimum wage replacements. If Dalbec is not going to play 3b - where he is most useful - then what are the Sox supposed to do with him?

 

Like I said, if Devers moves to 1b, problem solved. Last spring, Dalbec outlasted several other prospects reportedly because Cora liked his defense. So he might have a position.

 

But if Devers improved enough to stick at 3b, Dalbec is absolutely good trade bait. He doesn’t have to be dealt for an expensive player. The teams in most need of a 3b will be Miami, Milwaukee (if Moustakas walks) and Texas. Not exactly teams loaded with high priced contracts.

 

If Dalbec were dealt to Milwaukee for OF Trent Gresham and RHP Freddy Peralta, he serves both purposes of the farm system at once...

[moonslav59]

He harvested them in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That was 3 seasons - and 3 division titles.

 

So, basically, Theo & Ben planted a 3 year crop.

 

What was planted for the next GM?

 

Is there a future's market for this crop?

[Bellhorn04]

Some replenishment would be nice...

 

In DD's defense, I think he actually tried. He didn't trade any major prospects in 2018 or 2019 (not that there was much left).

[moonslav59]

And therefore the Sox should never trade another single prospect regardless of the return?

 

A farm serves two purposes - trade bait and minimum wage replacements. If Dalbec is not going to play 3b - where he is most useful - then what are the Sox supposed to do with him?

 

Like I said, if Devers moves to 1b, problem solved. Last spring, Dalbec outlasted several other prospects reportedly because Cora liked his defense. So he might have a position.

 

But if Devers improved enough to stick at 3b, Dalbec is absolutely good trade bait. He doesn’t have to be dealt for an expensive player. The teams in most need of a 3b will be Miami, Milwaukee (if Moustakas walks) and Texas. Not exactly teams loaded with high priced contracts.

 

If Dalbec were dealt to Milwaukee for OF Trent Gresham and RHP Freddy Peralta, he serves both purposes of the farm system at once...

 

For a long time, I expected Devers to end up at 1B. I'm not so sure anymore. If I was thinking of moving him, I'd feel him out, first. If it looks like it might bother him (and nothing seems to bother this kid) I might keep him at 3B. I wouldn't mess with the Devers Mojo.

 

notin's point about trading Dalbec makes sense, even though I really like the kid and think his bat will turn out better than Chavis (not saying much).

 

1Bmen are a dime a dozen, and hopefully we'll stop overpaying for mediocre 1Bmen FAs.

 

Dalbec at 2B doesn't excite me, either.

 

I do wonder what his trade value is. If we can't get much for him, I'd hold on and see what shakes out.

 

I remember Bogey looking better at SS his 3rd year, then taking a step back, so maybe the Devers to 1B idea is not decided, yet.

[Bellhorn04]

So, basically, Theo & Ben planted a 3 year crop.

 

What was planted for the next GM?

 

Is there a future's market for this crop?

 

If you want to do a straight-up comparison between Ben and DD, you have to include a comp of the team's record for their 4 years.

 

Ben - 1 title + 3 last place

DD - 1 title + 2 divisions + 1 3rd place

[jacksonianmarch]

So, to you, his biggest sin was extending Sale and re-signing Eovaldi?

 

There are a multitude of sins. The sin that will be remembered is the dearth of farm talent. The sin that I think cements the cliff is the expenditures on Eovaldi and Sale. Think about it. The sox wave goodbye to Eovaldi after 2018 and he signs in NY or Houston. The sox, in turn, go out and get Keuchel for the same money. They now have a less flashy but more consistent starter they can rely on every turn in the rotation. Sale doesn't get extended when he had a known shoulder issue. Sale goes down with diminished stuff and with an elbow injury and hits FA with his market uncertain. The sox now have $30 mil more to play with and can probably go out and get another consistent arm (Odorizzi) and have money to spend on a good pen arm (Betances). Now you have a rotation of Keuchel, Odorizzi, ERod, Price and ??? for 2020 with Betances and Workman finishing off games. Far better. Instead, DD tries to extend a good thing, adds guarantees to frequently injured players and the rotation dies and he is fired.

[moonslav59]

In DD's defense, I think he actually tried. He didn't trade any major prospects in 2018 or 2019 (not that there was much left).

 

He kept Devers & Beni (and DHern). Those two were right behind Moncada in our prospect rankings. Both were called up rather quickly, so that also affected our farm rankings.

 

That being said, I think trading a couple dozen of our top prospects and keeping 2-3 of the top 25 is closer to "decimation" than a normal "harvest."