Fire alex cora

[cp176]

That's a fair rule. Another is that Kimmi has to vote for a post other than one that's adamantly pro-Ben.

 

and there you have it!!!

[cp176]

Usually, those defending Ben are responding to someone talking about only the bad he did- like the horrible draft he had while signing Devers and DHern in the IFA market. Nobody is saying Ben was even near perfect. We all know he made some major blunders, as did every GM we've had. Both songs are tiresome, and not many sing a balanced tune.

 

Wow - I see this in just the opposite way. I would never mention Ben's name at all if I did not have to hear constantly about how he did so much better building our farm system and how much DD destroyed it. I think both of those points of view are irrational. There is a middle ground. I think that the executives here are getting much too much press to begin with.

[moonslav59]

Ben Cherington's record as a GM is difficult to assess. For every point there's one or more counterpoints.

 

Point: He won a championship.

Counterpoint: 3 last place finishes.

 

Point: He made 3 albatross signings in the same year (Pablo, Hanley, Castillo).

Counterpoint: At least one of those was forced on him by Lucchino.

 

Point: He left the team in great shape for the next GM.

Counterpoints: He left those albatross contracts. He left very little in major league ready pitching. Some of what he left, like Betts, was left to him by the previous GM.

 

Adding to all that is that he has never had any other GM job you could use for further evaluation.

 

Very well said.

[moonslav59]

Wow - I see this in just the opposite way. I would never mention Ben's name at all if I did not have to hear constantly about how he did so much better building our farm system and how much DD destroyed it. I think both of those points of view are irrational. There is a middle ground. I think that the executives here are getting much too much press to begin with.

 

I don't see people just starting a post on Ben out of thin air, too often. It's usually after a "Thanks Ben" comment or a blast about him not drafting any good pitching or signing too many clowns.

 

I will say, there have been many unsolicited posts bashing DD, so not much is changing on that front. I guess it goes with the business.

 

You are right- way too much chatter on GMs, but there's not much else to talk about when we have a vacancy there now.

[Slasher9]

Wow - I see this in just the opposite way. I would never mention Ben's name at all if I did not have to hear constantly about how he did so much better building our farm system and how much DD destroyed it. I think both of those points of view are irrational. There is a middle ground. I think that the executives here are getting much too much press to begin with.

 

Ben was GM for the Boston Red Sox from 2012-2015 seasons.

Let's look at the Bleacher Report Farm Rankings from 2011 (season prior to Ben) thru right now (end of DD's tenure).

2011 rank: 20

Ben takes over

2012 rank: 10

2013 rank: 4 (PARADE)

2014 rank: 3

2015 rank: 4

Ben gone / DD in

2016 rank: 4

2017 rank: 23

2018 rank: 28 (PARADE)

2019 rank: 30

DD gone / ?? in

 

pretty sure DD decimated the Farm. do you see it another way CP?

[moonslav59]

Ben was GM for the Boston Red Sox from 2012-2015 seasons.

Let's look at the Bleacher Report Farm Rankings from 2011 (season prior to Ben) thru right now (end of DD's tenure).

2011 rank: 20

Ben takes over

2012 rank: 10

2013 rank: 4 (PARADE)

2014 rank: 3

2015 rank: 4

Ben gone / DD in

2016 rank: 4

2017 rank: 23

2018 rank: 28 (PARADE)

2019 rank: 30

DD gone / ?? in

 

pretty sure DD decimated the Farm. do you see it another way CP?

 

Many remember Theo leaving a great farm for Ben, and it wasn't as bad as the 20th ranking showed, but Ben did actually improve the farm.

 

Betts wasn't even on our top 20 list at the end of 2011.

 

Here was the soxprospects.com list:

 

Middy

Kalish

Ranaudo

Bogey

Iggy

Lava

Barnes

Brentz

Jacobs

Swihart

Coyle

Cechini

Weiland

Doubront

Wilson

Britton

Vitek

Head

Pimental

Tejada

[a700hitter]

Isn't there a rule someplace that one can't call his own post the "Post of the Day"?? :D

In politics, the candidates don’t vote for their opponents. Why would we have to do so on TalkSox? LOL! For some posters here, any post contradicting me is in the running for post of the day.

[a700hitter]

I don't see people just starting a post on Ben out of thin air, too often. It's usually after a "Thanks Ben" comment or a blast about him not drafting any good pitching or signing too many clowns.

 

I will say, there have been many unsolicited posts bashing DD, so not much is changing on that front. I guess it goes with the business.

 

You are right- way too much chatter on GMs, but there's not much else to talk about when we have a vacancy there now.

When I kick DD in the shins, you don’t say anything, but the mere mention by me of Ben causes an immediate reaction by you. I find that amusing. Edited October 8, 2019 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

Such "...great and unmatched wisdom..."

Let me spell it out for you. Ben is a loser with the record to back it up.

[a700hitter]

Ben Cherington's record as a GM is difficult to assess. For every point there's one or more counterpoints.

 

Point: He won a championship.

Counterpoint: 3 last place finishes.

 

Point: He made 3 albatross signings in the same year (Pablo, Hanley, Castillo).

Counterpoint: At least one of those was forced on him by Lucchino.

 

Point: He left the team in great shape for the next GM.

Counterpoints: He left those albatross contracts. He left very little in major league ready pitching. Some of what he left, like Betts, was left to him by the previous GM.

 

Adding to all that is that he has never had any other GM job you could use for further evaluation.

Good summary, and after due consideration, it is my opinion that Ben was a loser.;)

[a700hitter]

Ben was GM for the Boston Red Sox from 2012-2015 seasons.

Let's look at the Bleacher Report Farm Rankings from 2011 (season prior to Ben) thru right now (end of DD's tenure).

2011 rank: 20

Ben takes over

2012 rank: 10

2013 rank: 4 (PARADE)

2014 rank: 3

2015 rank: 4

Ben gone / DD in

2016 rank: 4

2017 rank: 23

2018 rank: 28 (PARADE)

2019 rank: 30

DD gone / ?? in

 

pretty sure DD decimated the Farm. do you see it another way CP?

How many wins do you get for a high ranking on Bleacher Reports?

[a700hitter]

I will take you Ben supporters seriously about him doing a good job when he gets another GM job. No one will trust him with a payroll. He is second only to Congress in wasting money. If he was half as good as some people here think, he’d be going into his 4th season as GM for some team.

[a700hitter]

Such "...great and unmatched wisdom..."

I haven’t made this personal, but you always do. In every exchange we have, you inevitably get around to insulting me.

[Slasher9]

How many wins do you get for a high ranking on Bleacher Reports?

 

none. but we both know that when used WISELY these prospects can either blossom in the system and contribute to the ML club (see: betts, mookie) or be used to get proper ML talent in return (see: sale, chris) to help get a parade.

when the Farm is in the #30 range you cannot do either of these 2. it is possible to have a STRONG Farm and have a parade (see: 2013)

 

Note: i would guess the Baseball America rankings would be pretty similar but i do not have a membership.

[a700hitter]

none. but we both know that when used WISELY these prospects can either blossom in the system and contribute to the ML club (see: betts, mookie) or be used to get proper ML talent in return (see: sale, chris) to help get a parade.

when the Farm is in the #30 range you cannot do either of these 2. it is possible to have a STRONG Farm and have a parade (see: 2013)

 

Note: i would guess the Baseball America rankings would be pretty similar but i do not have a membership.

I get it. But don’t you think if JH thought Ben was on the right track in directing the team, that he wouldn’t have fired him?

[notin]

I will take you Ben supporters seriously about him doing a good job when he gets another GM job. No one will trust him with a payroll. He is second only to Congress in wasting money. If he was half as good as some people here think, he’d be going into his 4th season as GM for some team.

 

Do we know he wants to be a GM again? He's currently a VP of Baseball Operations, basically the Tony LaRussa of the Blue Jays. And I think given the steady stream of topflight prospects they have right now, they are probably quite happy with him in that role...

[Slasher9]

I get it. But don’t you think if JH thought Ben was on the right track in directing the team, that he wouldn’t have fired him?

 

you do know that JH and DD offered Ben to stay as GM tho right? you know Ben wasn't fired??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

he left.

[SoxnCycles]

you do know that JH and DD offered Ben to stay as GM tho right? you know Ben wasn't fired??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

he left.

 

Jesus, I don't log in for a while and it's back to 2015 again...

[notin]

you do know that JH and DD offered Ben to stay as GM tho right? you know Ben wasn't fired??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

he left.

 

Dombrowski replaced Lucchino, not Cherington. He just assumed Cherington's role after BC quit.

 

Now how much influence and responsibility he would have entrusted to Cherington is unknown.

[Bellhorn04]

Dombrowski replaced Lucchino, not Cherington. He just assumed Cherington's role after BC quit.

 

Now how much influence and responsibility he would have entrusted to Cherington is unknown.

 

Let's be real, when DD came on board it was the equivalent of kicking Ben in the privates.

[notin]

Let's be real, when DD came on board it was the equivalent of kicking Ben in the privates.

 

I suspect he wanted to limit BC to the GM role the same way Mike Hazen was entrusted to it....

[a700hitter]

you do know that JH and DD offered Ben to stay as GM tho right? you know Ben wasn't fired??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

he left.

Sort of like when a wife brings home another man and the husband leaves voluntarily.

[Slasher9]

Jesus, I don't log in for a while and it's back to 2015 again...

 

i blame you disappearing for our mediocre season.....

[Bellhorn04]

Sort of like when a wife brings home another man and the husband leaves voluntarily.

 

Not a bad analogy.

[notin]

Not a bad analogy.

 

Depends. What if she brought the new guy home to bring in a paycheck and help raise the kids, and the old husbands job was sex and controlling the quantity of beer in the fridge...

[Bellhorn04]

Depends. What if she brought the new guy home to bring in a paycheck and help raise the kids, and the old husbands job was sex and controlling the quantity of beer in the fridge...

 

Sure, that might happen...on a sitcom.

[Slasher9]

OK..seems we have 100% consensus now.

Ben was great at building the Farm and having 1 parade

DD was great at decimating the Farm and having 1 parade

they are now both "coffee boys"

[moonslav59]

OK..seems we have 100% consensus now.

Ben was great at building the Farm and having 1 parade

DD was great at decimating the Farm and having 1 parade

they are now both "coffee boys"

 

...oh but the 3 division rings! Doesn't that make DD the donut boy?

[SoxnCycles]

i blame you disappearing for our mediocre season.....

 

I wish I had that kind of pull!

[SoxnCycles]

OK..seems we have 100% consensus now.

Ben was great at building the Farm and having 1 parade

DD was great at decimating the Farm and having 1 parade

they are now both "coffee boys"

 

The perfect compromise.