Sox hitting??

[moonslav59]

I hope that you are right, but I am not so optimistic about the offense. Betts and Bogaerts still look lackluster. Moreland is still sucking. I saw nothing very encouraging from Benintendi.

 

When Pedey comes back, Moreland should be put on the DL or benched. HRam plays 1B and Nunez DH's.

 

Or, instead, we could put Bogey on the DL and use Nunez at SS for 10 days. (Maybe call Travis up for Moreland or trade for a 1Bman.)

 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I do not think 2016 was a fluke for many of our hitters. I'm thinking they should come back to their norms over the next 2 months, and I don't mean career norms heavily influenced by weak first years in MLB.

 

 

[a700hitter]

When Pedey comes back, Moreland should be put on the DL or benched. HRam plays 1B and Nunez DH's.

 

Or, instead, we could put Bogey on the DL and use Nunez at SS for 10 days. (Maybe call Travis up for Moreland or trade for a 1Bman.)

 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I do not think 2016 was a fluke for many of our hitters. I'm thinking they should come back to their norms over the next 2 months, and I don't mean career norms heavily influenced by weak first years in MLB.

 

 

Their 2016 norms were influenced by a lineup anchored by Ortiz, so that is not really their norms.

[Larry Cook]

When Pedey comes back, Moreland should be put on the DL or benched. HRam plays 1B and Nunez DH's.

 

Or, instead, we could put Bogey on the DL and use Nunez at SS for 10 days. (Maybe call Travis up for Moreland or trade for a 1Bman.)

 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I do not think 2016 was a fluke for many of our hitters. I'm thinking they should come back to their norms over the next 2 months, and I don't mean career norms heavily influenced by weak first years in MLB.

 

 

 

I think 2016 hitters benefitted by the leadership provided by Ortiz. Now they are going through the motions waiting for someone else to step up.

 

We need that leader to get these under performers to step up their game.

[moonslav59]

Their 2016 norms were influenced by a lineup anchored by Ortiz, so that is not really their norms.

 

Ortiz was there in 2015, 2014 and 2012 as well. I'm just not a believer that Papi made everyone that much better. maybe a little better, but not by this much.

 

I think when we look back at the careers of Betts, Beni, JBJ and Bogey, their career norms will be closer to 2016 numbers than their 2017 numbers as of today. Only time will tell, but to see all these declines when their age curve should indicate improvement might just be a fluke.

 

Hopefully, by the end of 2017, the 2016-2017 numbers gap will be smaller or reversed in some cases.

 

Pedey & JBJ are pretty close, but these guys have their work cut out from them:

 

-.083 HRam

-.079 Betts

-.067 Beni

-.054 Bogey

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

I think 2016 hitters benefitted by the leadership provided by Ortiz. Now they are going through the motions waiting for someone else to step up.

 

We need that leader to get these under performers to step up their game.

 

I never really saw Papi as a clubhouse leader. He led by example and certainly had an influence on all who played with him, but to see every single player decline from 2016 to 2017 is mind-boggling.

[a700hitter]

I never really saw Papi as a clubhouse leader. He led by example and certainly had an influence on all who played with him, but to see every single player decline from 2016 to 2017 is mind-boggling.

I read and heard stories about how Ortiz studied video and how he would point out to the younger guys the tendencies of the pitchers etc. He was huge leader of the offense not just on the field but in helping the kids.

[jacksonianmarch]

His presence in the order, especially last year when he was superhuman, allowed your lineup to elongate and allowed the hitters around him to see more favorable pitches.

[moonslav59]

Nobody is disputing that Papi helped the line-up.

[notin]

Do people not get simply replacing Ortiz was not a simple task? "Why didn't Dombrowski just go down to the MLB head office and fill out some forms?"

 

The idea of getting Sale as a replacement was probably about as good as was possible. ...

[a700hitter]

Do people not get simply replacing Ortiz was not a simple task? "Why didn't Dombrowski just go down to the MLB head office and fill out some forms?"

 

The idea of getting Sale as a replacement was probably about as good as was possible. ...

Yes, I get that, but apparently DD did not by thinking that Benintendi and Moreland were enough. There were a number of available big bats and none would have been as good as Ortiz, but they would have been a big improvement over what we have.

[oldtimer]

Yes, I get that, but apparently DD did not by thinking that Benintendi and Moreland were enough. There were a number of available big bats and none would have been as good as Ortiz, but they would have been a big improvement over what we have.

 

Hard to anticipate that Betts, Bogaerts and Beni would all be finding it difficult to even get one single a game

[Larry Cook]

Do people not get simply replacing Ortiz was not a simple task? "Why didn't Dombrowski just go down to the MLB head office and fill out some forms?"

 

The idea of getting Sale as a replacement was probably about as good as was possible. ...

 

I think a guy like votto could be as close to a replacement as possible for Ortiz.

 

Instead of trading for one-armed relievers, desperate/planless dave could have been using prospects for a proven producer like votto.

[Northern Star]

Remind me why we got rid of Beltre?

[Bellhorn04]

Remind me why we got rid of Beltre?

 

Is that horse not dead enough yet?

[Hugh2]

Remind me why we got rid of Beltre?

 

I'd take Devers over Beltre the next 6 years.

[notin]

I think a guy like votto could be as close to a replacement as possible for Ortiz.

 

Instead of trading for one-armed relievers, desperate/planless dave could have been using prospects for a proven producer like votto.

 

1. The only prospects the Reds would have wanted were the ones the Sox sent out for Sale. Are you saying the Sox should have gotten Votto instead of Sale?

 

2. Or better yet, which prospects were you referring to? Bear in mind that even with his HIDEOUS contract, Cincinnati has given no indication they want to dump Votto...

[Hugh2]

I'm not sure I would call Vottos contract hideous as long as he's putting up seasons like he is this year. The back end might get pretty ugly, but he strikes me as the type of guy who can hit until he's 40. I base that on absolutely nothing.

[Maxbialystock]

I have to agree with moonslav on this one. I too have raved about the absence of Ortiz and its effect on this team, but I honestly never thought it would be this bad. So of course I side with DD on going after Sale because our biggest problem by far last year and coming into this year was the rotation. Also, Ortiz had an incredible year, which DD was never going to be able to fill in for. There were literally no comparable bats available. Does no one else know that last year he had the highest OPS, 1.021 in MLB last year.

[cp176]

I'm not sure I would call Vottos contract hideous as long as he's putting up seasons like he is this year. The back end might get pretty ugly, but he strikes me as the type of guy who can hit until he's 40. I base that on absolutely nothing.

 

I knew there was a reason why i liked you.

[Larry Cook]

1. The only prospects the Reds would have wanted were the ones the Sox sent out for Sale. Are you saying the Sox should have gotten Votto instead of Sale?

 

2. Or better yet, which prospects were you referring to? Bear in mind that even with his HIDEOUS contract, Cincinnati has given no indication they want to dump Votto...

 

1.) I could be wrong, but last time I checked, sale is NOT a one-armed reliever.

 

2.) cincy is not going anywhere soon. They need pitching and could always use more prospects. I think desperate/planless dave has the ammunition to get a deal done with them. At the end of the day, cincy may decide to keep votto, point is we will not know unless we try.

[notin]

I'm not sure I would call Vottos contract hideous as long as he's putting up seasons like he is this year. The back end might get pretty ugly, but he strikes me as the type of guy who can hit until he's 40. I base that on absolutely nothing.

 

 

I think players who can hit into their 40s are a very rare breed. Since steroids have been weened from the game, we've returned to a time where aging players can decline rapidly and with no warning. Ortiz was more the exception than the rule...

Edited July 31, 2017 by notin

[notin]

1.) I could be wrong, but last time I checked, sale is NOT a one-armed reliever.

 

2.) cincy is not going anywhere soon. They need pitching and could always use more prospects. I think desperate/planless dave has the ammunition to get a deal done with them. At the end of the day, cincy may decide to keep votto, point is we will not know unless we try.

 

 

The point was the type of guys needed to get Votto are closer to what it took to get Sale than what it took to get Smith and Thornburg. Shaw, Dubon and Aro does NOT get Votto.

 

Cincinnati is going nowhere, although their farm is better than you give them credit for. But reportedly they get offers for Votto quite frequently and their attitude is they want to keep him and build around him. He is probably the only guy on that team worth paying to see...

[Kimmi]

1. The only prospects the Reds would have wanted were the ones the Sox sent out for Sale. Are you saying the Sox should have gotten Votto instead of Sale?

 

2. Or better yet, which prospects were you referring to? Bear in mind that even with his HIDEOUS contract, Cincinnati has given no indication they want to dump Votto...

 

If I'm not mistaken, Votto is pretty intent on staying in Cincinatti.

[Kimmi]

I'm not sure I would call Vottos contract hideous as long as he's putting up seasons like he is this year. The back end might get pretty ugly, but he strikes me as the type of guy who can hit until he's 40. I base that on absolutely nothing.

 

It's not hideous right now, but history has taught us over and over and over again that these types of contracts are not a good idea. Price was also the type of pitcher who should have 'aged well', and right now, that's not looking like the case.

[Kimmi]

I have to agree with moonslav on this one. I too have raved about the absence of Ortiz and its effect on this team, but I honestly never thought it would be this bad. So of course I side with DD on going after Sale because our biggest problem by far last year and coming into this year was the rotation. Also, Ortiz had an incredible year, which DD was never going to be able to fill in for. There were literally no comparable bats available. Does no one else know that last year he had the highest OPS, 1.021 in MLB last year.

 

Having an Ortiz type hitter would definitely elongate the line up. It does not, however, make the other hitters perform better.

[Larry Cook]

I have to agree with moonslav on this one. I too have raved about the absence of Ortiz and its effect on this team, but I honestly never thought it would be this bad. So of course I side with DD on going after Sale because our biggest problem by far last year and coming into this year was the rotation. Also, Ortiz had an incredible year, which DD was never going to be able to fill in for. There were literally no comparable bats available. Does no one else know that last year he had the highest OPS, 1.021 in MLB last year.

 

As of today votto's ops is 1.008. Not as good as Ortiz, but better than anything we currently have.

[a700hitter]

Having an Ortiz type hitter would definitely elongate the line up. It does not, however, make the other hitters perform better.

There are only so many pitches in a game where a pitcher can reach down for something extra. Most of the time, those pitches were reserved for Ortiz. Also, they didn't want to walk people in front of him, so pitchers were more likely to catch more of the plate when pitching to the hitters in front of Ortiz. A hitter like Ortiz changes the dynamics of how a pitcher approaches the rest of the lineup and he made the rest of the lineup better.

[iortiz]

Call me crazy, but I believe in our offense as it is. They have scored plenty of runs since Devers and Nunez came up. What worries me is Price's durability. We are done if he doesn't come back strong for the rest of the season. Eduardo and Porcello are a mass of inconcistencies, and we just can't go with Fister every 5 day.

[Spudboy]

There are only so many pitches in a game where a pitcher can reach down for something extra. Most of the time, those pitches were reserved for Ortiz. Also, they didn't want to walk people in front of him, so pitchers were more likely to catch more of the plate when pitching to the hitters in front of Ortiz. A hitter like Ortiz changes the dynamics of how a pitcher approaches the rest of the lineup and he made the rest of the lineup better.

 

Nonsense. You can't prove this with any statistics so I am not buying it!

[Spudboy]

Call me crazy, but I believe in our offense as it is. They have scored plenty of runs since Devers and Nunez came up. What worries me is Price's durability. We are done if he doesn't come back strong for the rest of the season. Eduardo and Porcello are a mass of inconcistencies, and we just can't go with Fister every 5 day.

 

Well the Sox do have your countryman Velazquez.