Sox hitting??

[sk7326]

The killer bees have lost their sting. The question is why is this the case? Are they just not that talented bunch of hitters? Is there a malaise in the clubhouse? Is our hitting approach inferior? Is the basic premise that they have lost their sting wrong? Something has to change and i can't believe that Devers will be enough to bring them out of the doldrums. Pedey and Hanley have been doing their jobs of late, while Moreland and the killer Bees have not. We already are weak at the catcher position and at 3rd, so what to do? Seriously, do we try to maintain this young group of talent or move on to some degree?

 

None of them are 25 - so clearly we move on.

[cp176]

The killer bees have lost their sting. The question is why is this the case? Are they just not that talented bunch of hitters? Is there a malaise in the clubhouse? Is our hitting approach inferior? Is the basic premise that they have lost their sting wrong? Something has to change and i can't believe that Devers will be enough to bring them out of the doldrums. Pedey and Hanley have been doing their jobs of late, while Moreland and the killer Bees have not. We already are weak at the catcher position and at 3rd, so what to do? Seriously, do we try to maintain this young group of talent or move on to some degree?

 

The killer Bees so to speak have really always been about potential. People have been projecting that Bogaerts was is going to become something that he has never been at the plate. As for Benintendi, who knows, hopefully he has a great ml career, but to project that he is going to better than some of the best who have ever been out there (comparisons to Yaz and Lynn) really? We need to be happy with what we have got in his case. JBJ is doing what JBJ has done since breaking in and it works for me. Betts is a little off but is it right to think that someone like him is going to have a career year every year he plays? I think that as a group they may not be under performing. What you see might be exactly what you are going to get.

[sk7326]

The killer Bees so to speak have really always been about potential. People have been projecting that Bogaerts was is going to become something that he has never been at the plate. As for Benintendi, who knows, hopefully he has a great ml career, but to project that he is going to better than some of the best who have ever been out there (comparisons to Yaz and Lynn) really? We need to be happy with what we have got in his case. JBJ is doing what JBJ has done since breaking in and it works for me. Betts is a little off but is it right to think that someone like him is going to have a career year every year he plays? I think that as a group they may not be under performing. What you see might be exactly what you are going to get.

 

Except for Bradley, most of the killer Bs peers are still in AA and AAA.

[cp176]

Except for Bradley, most of the killer Bs peers are still in AA and AAA.

 

I get that. They are young. I'm just not into the projection of any kids today being any better than they are at the moment.

[sk7326]

I get that. They are young. I'm just not into the projection of any kids today being any better than they are at the moment.

 

What is funny too is that Betts has been one of the league's very best players again this year - just happens that more of his production this year has been due to elite defense.

[cp176]

What is funny too is that Betts has been one of the league's very best players again this year - just happens that more of his production this year has been due to elite defense.

 

I do think that he is elite. He would be the one that (imo) the big money should be spent on going forward. Personally I have been guilty of thinking that many of our players are better than what everyone else has. I've been very protective of them. I am beginning to think that most of our everyday players could be replaced. I'm not particularly attached to any of them.

[sk7326]

I do think that he is elite. He would be the one that (imo) the big money should be spent on going forward. Personally I have been guilty of thinking that many of our players are better than what everyone else has. I've been very protective of them. I am beginning to think that most of our everyday players could be replaced. I'm not particularly attached to any of them.

 

They ARE better largely - Boston media view of the Red Sox will always make players seem not good enough ... and early great performance skews views of good

 

I went to college in Atlanta (grad school) and that is always how folks viewed Andruw Jones, a dude who hit a homerun in the World Series as an 18 year old. How do you top that? You can't - but he was really good for a long time. But it is hard to be that fired up when a supposed prodigy ends up landing on very good. It's not rational but there you go.

[cp176]

They ARE better largely - Boston media view of the Red Sox will always make players seem not good enough ... and early great performance skews views of good

 

I went to college in Atlanta (grad school) and that is always how folks viewed Andruw Jones, a dude who hit a homerun in the World Series as an 18 year old. How do you top that? You can't - but he was really good for a long time. But it is hard to be that fired up when a supposed prodigy ends up landing on very good. It's not rational but there you go.

 

I know that you are right. I really just wish that I liked them a little more. There is just something missing here for me.

[fxkatt]

It's not so much the Press as Red Sox hitting history which is the cause for disappointment. How about the 1950 starting line-up when DiMaggio ended up hitting .328, Zarilla .325, Dropo .322, Williams .317, Pesky .312, Tebbetts .310. Although special obviously, it was more in character with typical Red Sox hitting than out of character.

 

And the added disappointment of this year's hugest Sox payroll producing no more than 10 games over .500.

[moonslav59]

It's not so much the Press as Red Sox hitting history which is the cause for disappointment. How about the 1950 starting line-up when DiMaggio ended up hitting .328, Zarilla .325, Dropo .322, Williams .317, Pesky .312, Tebbetts .310. Although special obviously, it was more in character with typical Red Sox hitting than out of character.

 

And the added disappointment of this year's hugest Sox payroll producing no more than 10 games over .500.

Our great history of hitting has often led to disappointment and failure. Great pitching might not be as exciting to watch, but I'm hopeful the end result will be satisfying.

[cp176]

Our great history of hitting has often led to disappointment and failure. Great pitching might not be as exciting to watch, but I'm hopeful the end result will be satisfying.

 

Although I do agree with you about the pitching - particularly the starting pitching, I think there needs to be a balance. I think we lack that balance with this team. I also think that doing anything too drastic this season really isn't called for. Maybe Devers will give us a little more of what we lack.

[moonslav59]

Although I do agree with you about the pitching - particularly the starting pitching, I think there needs to be a balance. I think we lack that balance with this team. I also think that doing anything too drastic this season really isn't called for. Maybe Devers will give us a little more of what we lack.

 

We're an average hitting team, so it's not like we're 28th or something.

 

We have almost everyone under performing, so there is a chance we heat up when needed.

[cp176]

We're an average hitting team, so it's not like we're 28th or something.

 

We have almost everyone under performing, so there is a chance we heat up when needed.

 

hope that you are right - I don't necessarily think that almost everyone is under performing though. Anyway keep the faith I guess.

[oldtimer]

hope that you are right - I don't necessarily think that almost everyone is under performing though. Anyway keep the faith I guess.

 

The team lacks hitting even against average pitching. When we face stellar pitching, if its possible, we look worse. We can hope for improvement but are likely to see our first place slip away because we do lack balance as a team. Too much to exect from Devers that he can lift the team significantly. Perhaps the management needs to look at itself to understand some of the reasons for underperforming expectations. Remember, at the end of the last season we fell into a funk as well, going from the best offensive team in the league to a pasty. Changes seem to be needed, but it unlikely that a lot can be done with players, since we have financial and tradeable asset limitations. Management can be changed more easily, however it is inadvisable to do that during the season. Like a lot of the older long term fans, we have seen things like this before and just hope for the collective wisdom in the organization to move things in a positive direction.

[Bellhorn04]

They've scored 53 runs in the last 17 games. The craziest part is that this came after scoring 53 runs in 6 games.

[oldtimer]

Another interesting aside is that the Diamondbacks actually have a better won loss record than the Sox.

[mvp 78]

Another interesting aside is that the Diamondbacks actually have a better won loss record than the Sox.

 

DBags are 35-17 at home, 22-25 away. They have more away games left on the schedule than they do home.

 

If they face the Rockies in Colorado for the WC game, they are toast.

[moonslav59]

hope that you are right - I don't necessarily think that almost everyone is under performing though. Anyway keep the faith I guess.

 

Judge for yourself...

 

2016>2017 OPS

Leon .845 > .659

HRam .866 >.786

Pedey .825 >.797

Bogey .802 >.773

Beni .835 >.760

J B Jr. .835 >.793

Betts .897 > .832

Young .850 >.712

BHolt .705 >.479

Vaz .585

 

Only one player is having better season this year than last: Vaz. Many of the players having worse seasons were on the upside of the age curve. Only HRam and Young are close to the down side.

Edited July 25, 2017 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

Judge for yourself...

 

2016>2017 OPS

Leon .845 > .659

HRam .866 >.786

Pedey .825 <.797>

Bogey .802 >.773

Beni .835 >.760

J B Jr. .835 >.793

Betts .897 > .832

Young .850 >.712

BHolt .705 >.479

Vaz .585

 

The only two players having better seasons this year than last are Pedey and Vaz. Many of the players having worse seasons were on the upside of the age curve. Only HRam and Young are close to the down side.

 

Pedey is down from last year too, actually.

[moonslav59]

Pedey is down from last year too, actually.

 

Thanks. I went back and edited.

 

Clearly, we are seeing massive under performing by our hitters.

 

Even Mitch Moreland is on his way towards having a worse season this year, if his prolonged slump continues.

Edited July 25, 2017 by moonslav59

[cp176]

Judge for yourself...

 

2016>2017 OPS

Leon .845 > .659

HRam .866 >.786

Pedey .825 >.797

Bogey .802 >.773

Beni .835 >.760

J B Jr. .835 >.793

Betts .897 > .832

Young .850 >.712

BHolt .705 >.479

Vaz .585

 

Only one player is having better season this year than last: Vaz. Many of the players having worse seasons were on the upside of the age curve. Only HRam and Young are close to the down side.

 

I've go no argument I guess-

 

Are you surprised that Leon is down?

What are Hanley's career numbers?

I'll Pedey as is.

Bogey down that much really? What did people expect?

Beni - Who really knows where he should be just yet?

JBJ - just doesn't seem all the off to me

Betts - yup - I guess

Young - infrequent player -

Holt - pretty much same as Young

Vaz - doesn't matter still can't hit

[cp176]

I've go no argument I guess-

 

Are you surprised that Leon is down?

What are Hanley's career numbers?

I'll Pedey as is.

Bogey down that much really? What did people expect?

Beni - Who really knows where he should be just yet?

JBJ - just doesn't seem all the off to me

Betts - yup - I guess

Young - infrequent player -

Holt - pretty much same as Young

Vaz - doesn't matter still can't hit

 

Are they really that far off their career norms? Of the guys that are in there daily for the most part, yes it does look like Ramirez is off the mark but recently has been able to on occasion hit it where most of our other guys can't .

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

Since April 15th Red Sox catchers are batting .233/.282/.321, 45% worse than league average, ranking 29th in MLB.

[cp176]

Judge for yourself...

 

2016>2017 OPS

Leon .845 > .659

HRam .866 >.786

Pedey .825 >.797

Bogey .802 >.773

Beni .835 >.760

J B Jr. .835 >.793

Betts .897 > .832

Young .850 >.712

BHolt .705 >.479

Vaz .585

 

Only one player is having better season this year than last: Vaz. Many of the players having worse seasons were on the upside of the age curve. Only HRam and Young are close to the down side.

 

I'm focusing on career stats and I'm seeing Bogaerts and Bradley outperforming career norms. It is a matter of perspective. There is no question that a number of these guys aren't hitting like they did last year. Maybe for some of them it just isn't who they really are. I like career averages. Down for sure but as a group, I don't see it as massive under production.

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure why counting a player's first year or two against him is logical (see JBJ and Bogey's career numbers).

 

Most players improve on their numbers after year 2. They continue improving until they reach prime. I think it was fair to expect slight improvement from Bogey & JBJ. It's hard to expect improvement from a year like Betts, but his age curve could have suggested one.

 

I did not expect Leon to improve, but I expected Vaz to get better and the loss of Hanigan and Holaday's putrid offense would make us about even at catcher from 2016 to 2017.

 

Beni had a small sample size last year, so using his .835 number as a mark to improve from might be too much to expect.

 

HanRam & Pedey are still in prime. I didn't expect an improvement from 2016 or 2015-2016 combined, but expecting about the same was not really wishful thinking. I would agree that their decline should not be called "under performing"--same with Leon.

 

Overall, even minus Papi's 2016 numbers from the 2016 totals, we've seen a pretty significant decline. Maybe "massive" was hyperbole, but to me, we've clearly under performed as a whole.

 

[cp176]

I'm not sure why counting a player's first year or two against him is logical (see JBJ and Bogey's career numbers).

 

Most players improve on their numbers after year 2. They continue improving until they reach prime. I think it was fair to expect slight improvement from Bogey & JBJ. It's hard to expect improvement from a year like Betts, but his age curve could have suggested one.

 

I did not expect Leon to improve, but I expected Vaz to get better and the loss of Hanigan and Holaday's putrid offense would make us about even at catcher from 2016 to 2017.

 

Beni had a small sample size last year, so using his .835 number as a mark to improve from might be too much to expect.

 

HanRam & Pedey are still in prime. I didn't expect an improvement from 2016 or 2015-2016 combined, but expecting about the same was not really wishful thinking. I would agree that their decline should not be called "under performing"--same with Leon.

 

Overall, even minus Papi's 2016 numbers from the 2016 totals, we've seen a pretty significant decline. Maybe "massive" was hyperbole, but to me, we've clearly under performed as a whole.

 

 

I agree with you in general. I was a History/English guy so I know that I am guilty of over reacting when I focus on words. It is obvious that they aren't hitting as a group like they did last year. I'm just not all that surprised. I truly felt that they were apt to be substantially less productive this year than last. I felt the new influx of pitching could very well make up for it. The choice was made to not bring in bats capable of at least coming close to replacing Papi. I don't think that anybody could have really predicted that this is the most that we were going to get from third to date (that might change).

[Bellhorn04]

@redsoxstats

 

Since April 15th Red Sox catchers are batting .233/.282/.321, 45% worse than league average, ranking 29th in MLB.

 

Their math is wrong.

[a700hitter]

You can carry an offensive blackhole at catcher if the catcher does everything else well, but you can't carry a blackhole at catcher and at third base and a below average hitter at first base. With all of that dead weight, all you need is one or two other guys to slump and run production craters. We need Devers to inject some offensive life and we need another bat. DD needs to get a big RH bat for first base.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

Farrell on WEEI says he hopes Devers gives a spark to the bottom third of the order. "We need to string together base hits."

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

Another really bizarre Red Sox offense fact, unlike the norm in baseball, the more times through the lineup vs a starter the worse they hit.

 

If they don't score early, go to bed.

 

https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/889922391698223105