3rd Third III

[Spudboy]

that is behind a paywall, completely useless.

 

I hate those insider click bait posts.

[Fisk]

http://www.espn.com/blog/eric-karabell/insider/post?id=8138

 

The drumbeats are getting louder!

 

I'm all for it can't get any worse. If he struggles you send him back down to continue his development.

[mvp 78]

https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/863107770706538499

 

@redsoxstats

 

Devers is an outlier in the minors with his combination of big power and willingness to hit the opposite way. Lefty bat made for Fenway.

[oldtimer]

I'm all for it can't get any worse. If he struggles you send him back down to continue his development.

 

We have used 6 third basemen this year and it is only May 12th. So far our players have been error prone and are collectively hitting near the bottom of all ML players at that position. There is only one reason for not bringing up a young player like Devers and that is the concern that early exposure might hurt his confidence going forward. By accounts i have read he is a decent fielder with a strong arm and he hits with power. The major league pitching might be too much for him at this point and we have a lot of players on contract but if he could succeed, we would be a better team.

[cp176]

Too many people are using our third base problems as "the problem" that if solved everything would be just great. It is a big problem but it sure isn't the only one. In general, the defense has been poor, base running pathetic, and the hitting for the most part non-existent. They might be playing at their appropriate level which is just one tads worth better than .500.

[S5Dewey]

IMO some of our shortcomings are overstated because of isolated situations.

 

Take the team's alleged poor fielding, for example. The team has made 31 errors this year, but 13 of them have been at 3B. If remove those 13 and then allow a couple of errors for normal play the number of team errors becomes 20, which puts the Sox in the top 1/3. So the problem isn't overall team fielding. It's just that our 3B adventures have skewed things. And BTW, what's up with charging Mookie with an error last night on a ball that would have been a highlight reel catch had he made it? What ever happened to "normal effort" being the criteria?

 

Ya, there have been some baserunning gaffes but the two biggest ones weren't the fault of the players as much as they were either a) the players being caught in no-man's land on weird plays or the Sox being the recipient of the umpires failing to make the right call - twice. But Pedey needs to realize that he's not 23 any more and everyone needs to RUN EVERY BALL OUT.

 

Even the hitting isn't significantly worse than last year but not having Hanley there for the past few games has shown that we do need another big bat in the middle of the order. Either that or stop hitting into so friggin' many DP's! UGH

[Kimmi]

We have used 6 third basemen this year and it is only May 12th. So far our players have been error prone and are collectively hitting near the bottom of all ML players at that position. There is only one reason for not bringing up a young player like Devers and that is the concern that early exposure might hurt his confidence going forward. By accounts i have read he is a decent fielder with a strong arm and he hits with power. The major league pitching might be too much for him at this point and we have a lot of players on contract but if he could succeed, we would be a better team.

 

Dombrowski's one failure in building this year's team (and I have said many times that he did a great job building this year's team, with a lot of help from Ben and Theo, of course) is the lack of depth. In particular, he did not plan out our 3B situation well.

 

Guys like Holt, Rutledge, and Hernandez are good bench players for short day to day injuries or to give players a breather. They are not viable replacements for longer term injuries.

 

My biggest concern for this season, although it wasn't a huge concern, was the lack of overall depth. We need Pablo and Hanley, as well as Holt, to get 100% healthy, and things will look better.

[Bellhorn04]

It's not a good sign if we keep saying 'When this player and that player get healthy, we'll be really good.'

[Kimmi]

It's not a good sign if we keep saying 'When this player and that player get healthy, we'll be really good.'

 

Perhaps not. Which again speaks to the issue of depth.

 

I've quoted an article before that made a very good point about how teams that make it to the playoffs often do so not because of their star players, but because of the replacement players that step in when one of the regulars is out for a long time - The teams that suffer a huge injury blow, yet don't miss a beat.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski's one failure in building this year's team (and I have said many times that he did a great job building this year's team, with a lot of help from Ben and Theo, of course) is the lack of depth. In particular, he did not plan out our 3B situation well.

 

Guys like Holt, Rutledge, and Hernandez are good bench players for short day to day injuries or to give players a breather. They are not viable replacements for longer term injuries.

 

My biggest concern for this season, although it wasn't a huge concern, was the lack of overall depth. We need Pablo and Hanley, as well as Holt, to get 100% healthy, and things will look better.

 

I still think our bench is one of our greatest strengths.

 

We have a winning record despite having our $30M+ starter on the DL all year, our 4/5th starter (Wright) now out all year, our other 4/5 starter (Pom) missing time, and a whole slew of everyday player injuries, illnesses and family leaves.

 

I know all teams have injuries, but other than 3B, I think we have filled in for lost players very very well.

 

Vaz has done a great job as our back up catcher.

 

Moreland and Young have done a very good job playing full time, instead of platoon. In fact, they've done better vs "the wrong handed" pitchers. (Moreland .879 v LHPs/.793 v RHPs and Young .827 v RHPs/.566 v LHPs)

 

As for 3B, it's hard to blame a GM for having his top 4 third basemen out injured for a significant time. Having to bring up Marrero is stunning.

 

Our bull pen has been led by pitchers not expected to be on the opening day roster had everyone been healthy (including Smith & Thornburg). If you agree that this would have been our opening day pen: Kimbrel, Smith, Thornburg, Kelly, Barnes, Ross & Abad, then these pitchers would be considered "depth":

 

Heath Hembree

Robbie Scott

Ben Taylor

Brandon Workman

 

While Kendrick has sucked as our 7th starter, once Price returns, we might not have to see him again.

 

[Emp9]

I still think our bench is one of our greatest strengths.

 

We have a winning record despite having our $30M+ starter on the DL all year, our 4/5th starter (Wright) now out all year, our other 4/5 starter (Pom) missing time, and a whole slew of everyday player injuries, illnesses and family leaves.

 

I know all teams have injuries, but other than 3B, I think we have filled in for lost players very very well.

 

Vaz has done a great job as our back up catcher.

 

Moreland and Young have done a very good job playing full time, instead of platoon. In fact, they've done better vs "the wrong handed" pitchers. (Moreland .879 v LHPs/.793 v RHPs and Young .827 v RHPs/.566 v LHPs)

 

As for 3B, it's hard to blame a GM for having his top 4 third basemen out injured for a significant time. Having to bring up Marrero is stunning.

 

Our bull pen has been led by pitchers not expected to be on the opening day roster had everyone been healthy (including Smith & Thornburg). If you agree that this would have been our opening day pen: Kimbrel, Smith, Thornburg, Kelly, Barnes, Ross & Abad, then these pitchers would be considered "depth":

 

Heath Hembree

Robbie Scott

Ben Taylor

Brandon Workman

 

While Kendrick has sucked as our 7th starter, once Price returns, we might not have to see him again.

 

 

Right. Our depth doesn't suck necessarily. It's just on the field (instead of on the bench) way too much ( and one could argue we're still a +.500 club thanks to our depth). Starters start coming back from injury, I imagine we'll be just fine.

[a700hitter]

Cafardo on the pregame today made the point that Panda will have to be the answer at 3B. That means that Devers will not be coming up anytime soon. How much rope will Panda get before they look outside?

[Bellhorn04]

Cafardo on the pregame today made the point that Panda will have to be the answer at 3B. That means that Devers will not be coming up anytime soon. How much rope will Panda get before they look outside?

 

As much rope as it takes to carry him to his next trip to the DL, I'd say.

[sk7326]

Cafardo on the pregame today made the point that Panda will have to be the answer at 3B. That means that Devers will not be coming up anytime soon. How much rope will Panda get before they look outside?

 

It behooves them to say that. I don't think they expect Devers to be the answer this season. But ...

 

1. Dombrowski has had no issue promoting aggressively

2. Devers has gotten off to a magnificent start in AA as one of the youngest AA'ers around

3. If Devers performance holds up through a half season and the scouts think he can handle it (and you have a look a bit beyond the stats - like how Moncada's superficial numbers tore up AA, but he was also striking out a ton against AA-competition), a promotion would be aggressive, but not crazy. Bat him 9th, let him figure it out.

 

I think they'd love Sandoval to be a 2-3 win player again ... but I don't think anything has been decided. Sandoval - while I have defended him so far - has not done anything to end the discussion.

[cp176]

What do you mean by Moncada's superficial numbers?

[notin]

I still think our bench is one of our greatest strengths.

 

We have a winning record despite having our $30M+ starter on the DL all year, our 4/5th starter (Wright) now out all year, our other 4/5 starter (Pom) missing time, and a whole slew of everyday player injuries, illnesses and family leaves.

 

I know all teams have injuries, but other than 3B, I think we have filled in for lost players very very well.

 

Vaz has done a great job as our back up catcher.

 

Moreland and Young have done a very good job playing full time, instead of platoon. In fact, they've done better vs "the wrong handed" pitchers. (Moreland .879 v LHPs/.793 v RHPs and Young .827 v RHPs/.566 v LHPs)

 

As for 3B, it's hard to blame a GM for having his top 4 third basemen out injured for a significant time. Having to bring up Marrero is stunning.

 

Our bull pen has been led by pitchers not expected to be on the opening day roster had everyone been healthy (including Smith & Thornburg). If you agree that this would have been our opening day pen: Kimbrel, Smith, Thornburg, Kelly, Barnes, Ross & Abad, then these pitchers would be considered "depth":

 

Heath Hembree

Robbie Scott

Ben Taylor

Brandon Workman

 

While Kendrick has sucked as our 7th starter, once Price returns, we might not have to see him again.

 

 

"Bench" and "depth" ren't necessarily the same things. The bench is guys you have available today. "Depth" is what you can go get from your organization that fills a need tomorrow or the next day...

[notin]

But I do agree - the third base situation is pretty bad.

 

At this point, I'd rather DFA Sandoval, and give Rusney Castillo (who did play the position in Cuba) a try...

[Emp9]

What do you mean by Moncada's superficial numbers?

 

maybe sk meant peripheral?

[Kimmi]

I still think our bench is one of our greatest strengths.

 

We have a winning record despite having our $30M+ starter on the DL all year, our 4/5th starter (Wright) now out all year, our other 4/5 starter (Pom) missing time, and a whole slew of everyday player injuries, illnesses and family leaves.

 

I know all teams have injuries, but other than 3B, I think we have filled in for lost players very very well.

 

Vaz has done a great job as our back up catcher.

 

Moreland and Young have done a very good job playing full time, instead of platoon. In fact, they've done better vs "the wrong handed" pitchers. (Moreland .879 v LHPs/.793 v RHPs and Young .827 v RHPs/.566 v LHPs)

 

As for 3B, it's hard to blame a GM for having his top 4 third basemen out injured for a significant time. Having to bring up Marrero is stunning.

 

Our bull pen has been led by pitchers not expected to be on the opening day roster had everyone been healthy (including Smith & Thornburg). If you agree that this would have been our opening day pen: Kimbrel, Smith, Thornburg, Kelly, Barnes, Ross & Abad, then these pitchers would be considered "depth":

 

Heath Hembree

Robbie Scott

Ben Taylor

Brandon Workman

 

While Kendrick has sucked as our 7th starter, once Price returns, we might not have to see him again.

 

 

I agree that all things considered, the team is in pretty good shape.

 

I think the bench is a strength in terms of short term injuries and giving the starters a day off. I don't think our overall depth, in terms of covering a long term injury, is a strength. We traded all that away.

[Kimmi]

Right. Our depth doesn't suck necessarily. It's just on the field (instead of on the bench) way too much ( and one could argue we're still a +.500 club thanks to our depth). Starters start coming back from injury, I imagine we'll be just fine.

 

We'll be fine. No need for panic moves.

[moonslav59]

I agree that all things considered, the team is in pretty good shape.

 

I think the bench is a strength in terms of short term injuries and giving the starters a day off. I don't think our overall depth, in terms of covering a long term injury, is a strength. We traded all that away.

 

But, who has great players on the bench?

 

Comparatively speaking, I think our bench looks very good for short term injuries, and better than average for long term.

 

Long term:

OF: Young plays FT.

1B: Moreland or HRam plays FT with S Travis available.

2B: Hernandez/Holt, Rutledge

SS: Hernandez, Marrero

3B: Hernandez/Holt/Rutledge and eventually Devers

C: Swihart takes the place of Vaz or Leon.

 

Beyond these guys, we don't have much, but this is prey decent, at worst.

[cp176]

maybe sk meant peripheral?

 

Maybe I'm stupid. I know what peripheral and superficial mean. i've actually used the words myself. What Moncada has done at the minor league level is in fact what he did. 0 superficial about it. He is not doing too badly recently either. He still projects as a potential all-star. it is not fair to compare him with Benintendi for sure. It looks as though Benintendi was ahead of him in terms of development as he should have been. I'm as happy as hell that we have Sale but that in no way diminishes the impact that this young man may have someday. that being said, I wish that we had a few players currently on our team that at least as physically impressive as Moncada does.

[sk7326]

What do you mean by Moncada's superficial numbers?

 

His avg/hr/rbi was good at AA ... he also struck out a third of the time against sub-major league pitching. The former would have indicated he had developed his hitting - the latter would have given pause.

[cp176]

His avg/hr/rbi was good at AA ... he also struck out a third of the time against sub-major league pitching. The former would have indicated he had developed his hitting - the latter would have given pause.

 

thank you - i know exactly what you mean. Those were the facts about Moncada that everyone saw or certainly had a chance to see though. i know that there were people who were very critical of his K rate when he got the call up. It should have come as no surprise at all. I still fully expect this kid to be a major impact player.

[Kimmi]

But, who has great players on the bench?

 

Comparatively speaking, I think our bench looks very good for short term injuries, and better than average for long term.

 

Long term:

OF: Young plays FT.

1B: Moreland or HRam plays FT with S Travis available.

2B: Hernandez/Holt, Rutledge

SS: Hernandez, Marrero

3B: Hernandez/Holt/Rutledge and eventually Devers

C: Swihart takes the place of Vaz or Leon.

 

Beyond these guys, we don't have much, but this is prey decent, at worst.

 

Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with most of those long term solutions that you mentioned.

 

I realize that the issue with long term solutions is a problem that most teams face. The solutions to filing long term needs are to promote from within or to make a trade. The problem is, we no longer have the farm system to do either of those things.

[Emp9]

I'm fine with Young as OF depth long term

I'm fine with our 1B depth long term

I'm fine with Swihart as C depth long term

I'm fine with Devers as 3B depth long term

[notin]

We'll be fine. No need for panic moves.

 

 

I agree no need for panic moves. No need for Beltre.

 

But it shouldn't be too difficult to upgrade over Jeff Rutledge, who didn't play 3b between middle school and MLB, or Sandoval. ..

[moonslav59]

I'm fine with Young as OF depth long term

I'm fine with our 1B depth long term

I'm fine with Swihart as C depth long term

I'm fine with Devers as 3B depth long term

 

That's better than most teams have.

 

I'm also fine with Hernandez at SS long term. He's better there and at 2B than 3B.

 

Plus, we have super sub Holt coming back soon. Apparently, everyone loves this guy.

 

 

Back to 3B, we have 13 errors already at 3B. The next two teams have 16 combined!

 

I'm thinking if Pablo will not be back soon, I'm getting real close to wanting Devers to get a shot.

[S5Dewey]

That's better than most teams have.

 

I'm also fine with Hernandez at SS long term. He's better there and at 2B than 3B.

 

Plus, we have super sub Holt coming back soon. Apparently, everyone loves this guy.

 

 

Back to 3B, we have 13 errors already at 3B. The next two teams have 16 combined!

 

I'm thinking if Pablo will not be back soon, I'm getting real close to wanting Devers to get a shot.

 

I'm thinking that even if Pablo does come back soon we may be getting real close to wanting Devers to get a shot.

[moonslav59]

I'm thinking that even if Pablo does come back soon we may be getting real close to wanting Devers to get a shot.

 

Certainly, that could happen. There's a strong chance Pablo does not do well when he returns.

 

I'd give Pablo a pretty long leash though, assuming he hasn't gained 10 pounds while on the DL.