Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[moonslav59]

He had a quality start tonight. if any of the guy besides our top 3 could throw a quality start, I'd be THRILLED. Buchholz, Kelly, O'Sullivan, Elias, E-Rod and Owens have combined to make 26 starts, in those 26 starts we've received 6 quality starts (3 from Buchholz in 10 starts, 1 from Kelly in 6, 1 from E-Rod in 4, 1 from Owens in 3, 0 from O'Sullivan in 2 and 0 from Elias in 1).

 

Gonzalez isn't a flashy guy or a big name, but he's a hell of a lot better than half our rotation.

 

 

I think the Sox are 13-13 in games not started by Price, Wright and Porcello.

 

I'm not trying to say I have any confidence in these guys. We do need another starter for sure, but so far our bats have carried our weak starters. Unfortunately, they've come up short a few too many times when our big three are pitching (like tonoght.)

[southpaw777]

He is going to get more time. There is no one else better than him right now. What I am saying is that when (if) Swihart returns this year, he should be a catcher, not a LF. Just in case. Atom bombs or not, unless Vasquez produces with the bat he will eventually be sitting a lot more often.

 

He may be PH for but he will not be a BU catcher...he will hit. He has hit at every level after an adjustment....hes been scortching the ball lately with a bunch of them right at someone. Hes got good plate discipline and pitch recognition. After a year off his main concern is defense and arm strength/throwing accuracy. The hitting is secondary, but will get better.

An elite catcher like Vaz only has to be about 240 to be acceptable. I believe he will be better than that. Swihart will most likely be traded if I had to guess. This team has plenty of offense. Its not like we need a 280 bat behind the plate....but dont be surprised if he has a few years like that in the future.

[Slasher9]

This Gonzalez dude pitching for Chicago tonight is a guy we let go of and then passed on. I realize he isn't all that good or young, but he's plenty cheap and he does at least resemble a major league pitcher.

 

he does seem to ramp it up errytime he faces us. huge disparity in his stats comparing vs RS and Rest of League.

[Slasher9]

He is tipping pitches, but his struggles go beyond that.

 

Here is what Merloni had to say about it:

 

As Merloni noted, when Rodriguez starts to lift his hands, if the hitter can see the thumb of his glove, Rodriguez is throwing a fastball or something hard. If the glove remains flat, it's a changeup. After he pointed it during Thursday's game, even my untrained eye could call about three-quarters of Rodriguez's pitches.

 

thanks Kimmi. good stuff.

[a700hitter]

I will be there tomorrow, so hopefully my at the game mojo will help ER.

[FredLynn]

He may be PH for but he will not be a BU catcher...he will hit. He has hit at every level after an adjustment....hes been scortching the ball lately with a bunch of them right at someone. Hes got good plate discipline and pitch recognition. After a year off his main concern is defense and arm strength/throwing accuracy. The hitting is secondary, but will get better.

An elite catcher like Vaz only has to be about 240 to be acceptable. I believe he will be better than that. Swihart will most likely be traded if I had to guess. This team has plenty of offense. Its not like we need a 280 bat behind the plate....but dont be surprised if he has a few years like that in the future.

 

He has been "scorching the ball" to the tune of .221/.567 for the year and .212/.455 over the last 10 games. With that kind of scorching we sure need to break out the fire extinguisher. Sure he has the potential to hit the ball; so does Castillo. I want performance, not potential. He is good defensively, to be sure, but with those offensive numbers I want a backup plan too. Good thing we have Swihart in the wings.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's fine on a team with good offense. He is a difference maker defensively. If the offense cools, he's a liability because he is an absolutely terrible hitter

[Bellhorn04]

Vazquez has an MLB OPS of .595. That's bad, but the average MLB catcher only has an OPS of .683. He doesn't have to improve that much to get to average.

[illinoisredsox]

He's streaky. He'll go 2-3 games where he's hitting the ball fairly well (good contact) and gets 5-6 hits over that span, then he goes 1-20 over his next 5 games or so and looks terrible. Not unusual for a young player.

 

I also don't think it all that unusual for a catcher to struggle more than most early in his career hitting wise unless he is just a gifted hitter. Like every young hitter, pitchers get a book on them and they have to adjust if they are going to succeed. Given their duties with the pitching staff, catchers don't have the same time to work on the adjustments as any other position player. Vazquez is unlikely to ever win a silver slugger, but given time he will probably be serviceable.

[FredLynn]

Vazquez has an MLB OPS of .595. That's bad, but the average MLB catcher only has an OPS of .683. He doesn't have to improve that much to get to average.

 

You don't build a championship team with a group of players who "don't have to improve that much to get to average". I realize you cannot have a team full of above average players, but that should certainly be the goal.

[User Name]

The 2006 Cardinals won it all with Yadier Molina OPS'ing .595.

[moonslav59]

You don't build a championship team with a group of players who "don't have to improve that much to get to average". I realize you cannot have a team full of above average players, but that should certainly be the goal.

 

Usually the team goal, from a management perspective, is to try and improve your weakest links, but this is not done in a vacuum. If we tried to improve on catcher offense, we'd likely lose in catcher defense (in the widest sense of the word), so although Vaz may never reach MLB positional "average" on offense with Vaz behind the plate, I think we will always have an overall plus due to the defense and intangibles Vaz brings with his game.

 

As a general manager, I think the goal is to strive to improve your weakest links first. I do not think our weakest position is catcher. I think it is more like this:

 

1) #2 type SP'er

2) Solid RP'er

3) #4 type SP;er, even if just as insurance against ERod.

4) LF (Benintendi?)

5) Looking ahead after Papi retires- 3B/1B/DH (Moncada?)

6) Maybe just maybe offense from the catching position *

 

*If we keep Swihart around, we can either have offense at the catcher position with him playing catcher, or if he plays LF and we have Hanigan or Leon on the roster, we can afford to PH for Vazquez as many games as we need.

[mvp 78]

The 2006 Cardinals won it all with Yadier Molina OPS'ing .595.

 

Thanks to Eckstein's 189 GRIT+

[Dojji]

You don't build a championship team with a group of players who "don't have to improve that much to get to average". I realize you cannot have a team full of above average players, but that should certainly be the goal.

 

No, but you can win it all with a group of guys who can improve their worst skill to average.

[sk7326]

Vasquez is a bad hitter - but probably good enough to let the rest of his virtues play. It's a bad you can live with. Hanley and the LF pu pu platter is more problematic.

[southpaw777]

He has been "scorching the ball" to the tune of .221/.567 for the year and .212/.455 over the last 10 games. With that kind of scorching we sure need to break out the fire extinguisher. Sure he has the potential to hit the ball; so does Castillo. I want performance, not potential. He is good defensively, to be sure, but with those offensive numbers I want a backup plan too. Good thing we have Swihart in the wings.

 

Scorthing, meaning hitting the ball hard but right at someone a lot of the times...i believe thats what i wrote.

Id rather have elite D than someone like Swihart who cant block a ball to save his life...he will cost us more runs behind the plate...

Vaz and Leon are a solid combo behind the plate...Defense first.

Obviously the team knows he can and will hit plenty good to be a starter. He was off for a year. also, I wouldnt compare him to castillo...the two are nothing alike...castillo cant hit anything over 90MPH.

Like I said, hes hit at every level after an adjustment period. He was starting to hit at the end of the year in 2014, but got hurt in ST 15...i will still stick by my opinion based on the info, facts, and own personal knowledge that Vaz will hit plenty good to be a FT starter. Swihart will be traded.

[User Name]

Vasquez has a 24.1 LD%, and 61.6 GB%. That's the profile of a high-average, low-power hitter.

[jacksonianmarch]

Just heard Schilling on EEI walking about the sox. His exact words were "this is not a championship team, at least with this rotation". When the playoffs come, good teams will slow your lineup. You will run out Wright, Price and Porcello. Nobody has a clue as to whether Wright will keep this up. Price is pretty terrible in the postseason. Porcello conjures up no confidence at all in the playoffs, lets be honest. This is Papi's final year, and with his offense gone, this team looks much more mortal offensively, even if you snag Bautista in the offseason. The time is now. If you are to ascend the ranks and prove that the sox are championship contenders in 2016, you must nab a top of the rotation guy

[User Name]

Pedro and Schilling are pining for Jose Fernandez, but A) His mechanics are f***ing terrible and conductive to more arm trouble, and B ) That sounds like a pipe dream either way.

[jacksonianmarch]

I would think a guy like Sonny Gray would make sense, as he is starting to find it again. I also think that the big pipe dream should be Chris Sale. I honestly think he is about to be available, and the sox are one of a few teams that could actually get it done

[S5Dewey]

Just heard Schilling on EEI walking about the sox. His exact words were "this is not a championship team, at least with this rotation". When the playoffs come, good teams will slow your lineup. You will run out Wright, Price and Porcello. Nobody has a clue as to whether Wright will keep this up. Price is pretty terrible in the postseason. Porcello conjures up no confidence at all in the playoffs, lets be honest. This is Papi's final year, and with his offense gone, this team looks much more mortal offensively, even if you snag Bautista in the offseason. The time is now. If you are to ascend the ranks and prove that the sox are championship contenders in 2016, you must nab a top of the rotation guy

 

I wish I didn't agree with this.^^^

 

This team NEEDS pitching. They can either try to get it now and be a contender this year while Papi is there or they can try their luck in the off-season and take a "wait until next year" approach to 2016.

 

Were I DD I'd be designating a few players (Mookie, XBo, JBJ, Vaz, Papi obviously, and maybe Pedey) as untouchable and everyone else - including all prospects - is up for grabs in a trade. Then I'd be trying to get the best pitcher I could get (and extend) at the deadline using those players I didn't mention. If a trade can be made the team is stronger both this year and next. If it can't be made we still have our "core four" to build around into the future.

[oldtimer]

Pretty much agree with your synopsis. Looking ahead, with Papi gone, Hanley does not appear to be the answer at Designated hitter so we will probably try to sign a FA that has a proven power bat. Young may be gone next year. It is not a stretch to imagine either Benintendi or Swihart in left field. I don't believe Swihart should catch except in an emergency. Holt will probably remain a utility guy. Moncada will probably come up in August and whether he fills in at 2nd, third or first base, he appears to be ready to stick in the majors. It would be a young team except at DH with quality at every position but even so big Papi will be sorely missed.

 

Next year the 3 starting pitchers who look to be keepers are Price, Wright and Porcello. Where do you find 2 quality starters?

[User Name]

Moncada just got promoted to AA. Let's pump the brakes there a bit.

[mvp 78]

Moncada just got promoted to AA. Let's pump the brakes there a bit.

 

Won't be any room on the roster for Moncada since Benintendi will be up in July.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Moncada just got promoted to AA. Let's pump the brakes there a bit.

 

Based on everything I've heard & read, Moncada might be closer than you think. Even Schilling said this morning that everyone he talks to says he is "really close."

 

I think that at worst he'll get a September call-up to help get acclamated to the life style. I don't think that anyone within that organization would be surprised if he ends up starting in Boston next season. The kid is a special talent.

[moonslav59]

Several players make the jump from AA to MLB, if their doing great. I'm not really going to count on Beninetendi or Moncada for this year, but I think Sox management will not look to replace Papi with Bautista or Encarnacion. I think they will hope Pablo and a mix of rotating players will fill the DH slot, and one or both of Benintendi and Moncada will provide some added spark to the offense.

 

Sam Travis may also win a slot on next year's 25 man roster.

 

Once papi retires, Holt's "flexibility" value is lessened on this club, and I think he'll be dealt away.

 

I think we keep Hanigan and his option and trade Swihart (and others) for pitching. We'll probably have to make a big prospect package deal to avoid spending big on free agency to fill all of our pitching needs. I doubt we go too much over the luxury limit next year. I don't see henry as being OK with deals like Price and Kimbrel's contracts being added every winter (plus $6M for a platoon OF'er who only does well vs lefties not righties).

 

The rise in the luxury budget limit will helps some, but not only are we losing Papi, but Uehara and Tazawa will be FAs as well. That's 3 significant roles to fill plus 2 SP'ers and another RP'er.

 

[User Name]

Encarnacion will be DH'ing for the Sox next year. It just makes too much sense.

[Kimmi]

Just heard Schilling on EEI walking about the sox. His exact words were "this is not a championship team, at least with this rotation". When the playoffs come, good teams will slow your lineup. You will run out Wright, Price and Porcello. Nobody has a clue as to whether Wright will keep this up. Price is pretty terrible in the postseason. Porcello conjures up no confidence at all in the playoffs, lets be honest. This is Papi's final year, and with his offense gone, this team looks much more mortal offensively, even if you snag Bautista in the offseason. The time is now. If you are to ascend the ranks and prove that the sox are championship contenders in 2016, you must nab a top of the rotation guy

 

I think everyone is in agreement that we need starting pitching help. Most of us are confident that we will get it.

 

However, your suggestion that if the Sox don't go all in this year, they will have missed their opportunity is off base. This team is set up to contend for the foreseeable future. If it doesn't happen this year, we will have a good shot next year, Papi or no Papi.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Why would the Red Sox ever want to trade Brock Holt? The return will likely not come close to what he gives them. The guy gives Farrell a ton of flexibility, he can pretty much play anywhere, rarely gives you a bad at bat and he's a great clubhouse guy. He's pretty much the perfect "25th man."

 

They were talking about him about a month ago on one of those talk shows and someone said, "Every team is looking for their own Brock Holt type, but a guy like that isn't easy to develop. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for what he does, but his teammates love him." The only way that I think they would ever consider trading him is if he asks for an opportunity to go somewhere where he'll get a shot to play everyday. Why else would they ever want to dump a guy like that?

[mvp 78]

I think everyone is in agreement that we need starting pitching help. Most of us are confident that we will get it.

 

However, your suggestion that if the Sox don't go all in this year, they will have missed their opportunity is off base. This team is set up to contend for the foreseeable future. If it doesn't happen this year, we will have a good shot next year, Papi or no Papi.

 

Most of us wanted starting pitching in the offseason too. Some of us told the rest of us to just be patient.

 

I don't believe we will get a substantial addition to the rotation during the season. This team has spent the past few years twiddling its thumbs while the obvious need was for better starting pitching. They dumped Lackey for nothing. They lowballed Lester. They could have paid Scherzer, but ignored one of the best pitchers in the game when he was available.

 

I have no confidence that the rotation will be fixed this year. The offense is good enough to be WC contenders, but the pitching is very suspect.

 

If Wright comes back to earth, look out...