Clay Buchholz - Is he worth the 2016 option?

[Spudboy]

But Ortiz is hispanic. In fact, he had a very public spat when he was not yet a star and played winter leagues becausea European reporter called him and African American.

 

Hmmm.

 

This conversation has fail written all over it.

 

However, while not "African -American", Ortiz clearly has African DNA.

 

The idea that he was born and raised on a Spanish speaking island does not change that.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

African American is kind of a flawed term, it only really means a group of people that have a certain culture, not really much more. Calling a dominican like Ortiz black or african american is what I assume would be the same as seeing an Irish person and calling them French. This all gets too convoluted with hispanics. For instance I'm half Puerto Rican, therefore part hispanic. But within that half, half of them are white and half are black. But all share the same culture(unlike whites and blacks in america). Yet I've been thought of as being Dominican a bunch of times and it annoys me.

 

tl;dr Race is stupid as hell

[StephenCurry30]

@SpudBoy, no, that was my mistake. Pablo is from Venezuela, I was going off memory and that one was wrong.

[redsoxdirtdog]

It's quite clear that many island boys, PR, the DR, etc have some African ancestry. Check. Got it. Who gives a rip!

 

What the hell is the point? African-Americans can't handle Boston? Please! Most white guys can't handle Boston or NY.

 

The glare of the big lights can get to anyone. We could spend ALL YEAR discussing big WHITE flops in Boston or NY. Yes. There was a history of some racism here in Boston, but that died a LONG TIME AGO!

 

Anyway... JBJ, Mookie, yes Papi, & definitely Price will all do just fine here! Price, Mookie, & JBJ ARE ALL rising stars, & will continue to be loved & adored by RS Nation.

 

It's completely a non-factor in 2016 Boston Mass! I really hate when we try to make Boston out to be 1970. Time to move on.

 

No offense, but this really is a stupid point! Blacks & Hispanics are over 50% of this rising team , & it's quite obvious Boston is loving it!

 

Papi, XB, HanRam, Mookie, Vaz, Price, ERod, Pretty damned good core, with a sh!toad of African heritage. All breakout stars!

[Jasonbay44]

Clay Buchholz is such a s***** topic that this whole thread turned into race debate. Lol

 

I don't care about race at all, I've loved and hated players of all races on Red Sox and race was never a factor, and don't get why it ever would be.

[User Name]

Hmmm.

 

This conversation has fail written all over it.

 

However, while not "African -American", Ortiz clearly has African DNA.

 

The idea that he was born and raised on a Spanish speaking island does not change that.

 

It's a culture/heritage thing. I bet you wouldn't like being called French just because you're white. After all, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

[User Name]

African American is kind of a flawed term, it only really means a group of people that have a certain culture, not really much more. Calling a dominican like Ortiz black or african american is what I assume would be the same as seeing an Irish person and calling them French. This all gets too convoluted with hispanics. For instance I'm half Puerto Rican, therefore part hispanic. But within that half, half of them are white and half are black. But all share the same culture(unlike whites and blacks in america). Yet I've been thought of as being Dominican a bunch of times and it annoys me.

 

tl;dr Race is stupid as hell

 

You wish you were Dominican. We have the best food and the highest crime rate! How do you beat that combo! Plus I'll raise the electricity problems, crippling external debt and generalized government corruption! Actually scratch that, being Dominican (if you can't play baseball and live in the Dominican) sucks.

[mvp 78]

It's a culture/heritage thing. I bet you wouldn't like being called French just because you're white. After all, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

 

Mange merde...

Edited May 3, 2016 by mvp 78

[User Name]

Mange merde...

 

Omelette du fromage!

[mvp 78]

Omelette du fromage!

 

Not since Thursday AM.

[Hitch]

1. To date? No - obviously

2. Picking up his extension was a no-brainer, full stop

 

Exactly this.

 

Although I would have looked to trade him after picking up the option. Which maybe they did.

[User Name]

Exactly this.

 

Although I would have looked to trade him after picking up the option. Which maybe they did.

 

This is a fair point. Maybe they shopped him and no one bit. I think I saw somewhere that Buch was in the conversation for the Smith/Elias trade, but the M's were hell bent on Miley.

[royf19]

Clay Buchholz is such a s***** topic that this whole thread turned into race debate. Lol

 

I don't care about race at all, I've loved and hated players of all races on Red Sox and race was never a factor, and don't get why it ever would be.

 

I agree. When I was young, Yaz was always my favorite player, but I liked Reggie Smith and Tommy Harper and hated when George Scott was traded to the Brewers. Luis Tiant was my favorite pitcher, and when Fred Lynn and Jim Rice came up, I always liked Rice better. I was too young and stupid, I guess, to realize that Boston fans weren't supposed to like black players.

[royf19]

Because Buchholz is the title of the thread, I'll post something about Buchholz.

 

Last year when all the other starters stunk, Buchholz was pitching great -- 3.26 ERA in 18 starts and 3.10 ERA in nine starts from May to late June when the Sox fell from 2 out to 10 out. Yet a lot of the blame for the failures of the other pitchers was that there was no ace to anchor the staff and allow other pitchers to fall into place, despite the fact that Buchholz was pitching like an ace.

 

This year, the ace -- Price -- isn't pitching anything like an ace, yet for some reason other pitchers like Wright and Porcello are pitching great -- even Owens in his last start. Hmmm.

[devildavid]

Even though I ultimately want to get rid of Buchholz, I think we have to make the best of it for this season. I'm hoping he will get into a groove and pitch some games commensurate with his talent level. He does have great stuff, but he is physically fragile and mentally he doesn't seem to have that edge to put him into the next level. He is a skilled craftsman, but not an artist.

[Slasher9]

Because Buchholz is the title of the thread, I'll post something about Buchholz.

 

Last year when all the other starters stunk, Buchholz was pitching great -- 3.26 ERA in 18 starts and 3.10 ERA in nine starts from May to late June when the Sox fell from 2 out to 10 out. Yet a lot of the blame for the failures of the other pitchers was that there was no ace to anchor the staff and allow other pitchers to fall into place, despite the fact that Buchholz was pitching like an ace.

 

This year, the ace -- Price -- isn't pitching anything like an ace, yet for some reason other pitchers like Wright and Porcello are pitching great -- even Owens in his last start. Hmmm.

 

agree 100%.

Thank you. this is exactly the kind of response i was looking for when i started this thread.

[Spudboy]

It's a culture/heritage thing. I bet you wouldn't like being called French just because you're white. After all, the French are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

 

I do understand you. And I do believe that I have at least a little understanding of Dominican pride.

 

My comment was just to point out the obvious. Ortiz and some other people with dark skin have African heritage. That somewhere along the line someone in their family tree was from Africa.

[User Name]

I do understand you. And I do believe that I have at least a little understanding of Dominican pride.

 

My comment was just to point out the obvious. Ortiz and some other people with dark skin have African heritage. That somewhere along the line someone in their family tree was from Africa.

 

The same could probably be said for everyone.

[User Name]

Because Buchholz is the title of the thread, I'll post something about Buchholz.

 

Last year when all the other starters stunk, Buchholz was pitching great -- 3.26 ERA in 18 starts and 3.10 ERA in nine starts from May to late June when the Sox fell from 2 out to 10 out. Yet a lot of the blame for the failures of the other pitchers was that there was no ace to anchor the staff and allow other pitchers to fall into place, despite the fact that Buchholz was pitching like an ace.

 

This year, the ace -- Price -- isn't pitching anything like an ace, yet for some reason other pitchers like Wright and Porcello are pitching great -- even Owens in his last start. Hmmm.

 

Then he got injured and ended up with less than 120 IP. Don't get me wrong, picking up the option was a no-brainer, but the Buch-Price comparisons are pretty silly.

[Hitch]

This is a fair point. Maybe they shopped him and no one bit. I think I saw somewhere that Buch was in the conversation for the Smith/Elias trade, but the M's were hell bent on Miley.

 

Yeah, you can certainly see why they would rather an innings eater like Miley over Buch, even with the vast difference in ability when Clay is 100%.

[royf19]

Then he got injured and ended up with less than 120 IP. Don't get me wrong, picking up the option was a no-brainer, but the Buch-Price comparisons are pretty silly.

 

Wasn't comparing Price and Buchholz. The point was that too much blame for the pitching struggles was put on the idea that the Sox did not have an ace at the beginning of the season when the fact was, the guy the Sox was calling their ace really was pitching like an ace. The guys stunk not because there was or wasn't an ace. They stunk because THEY stunk. It was on them, no on anyone else.

 

This year, the ace isn't pitching like an ace but other guys are pitching well because THEY ARE PITCHING well.

 

I'm not discounting the value of having a true ace, but I get sick and tired when fans or analysts put the blame for one player's struggles on others rather than putting the blame on the player himself.

[User Name]

Wasn't comparing Price and Buchholz. The point was that too much blame for the pitching struggles was put on the idea that the Sox did not have an ace at the beginning of the season when the fact was, the guy the Sox was calling their ace really was pitching like an ace. The guys stunk not because there was or wasn't an ace. They stunk because THEY stunk. It was on them, no on anyone else.

 

This year, the ace isn't pitching like an ace but other guys are pitching well because THEY ARE PITCHING well.

 

I'm not discounting the value of having a true ace, but I get sick and tired when fans or analysts put the blame for one player's struggles on others rather than putting the blame on the player himself.

 

I should have clarified. The comment wasn't aimed specifically at you, but rather at those who did.

[royf19]

Even though I ultimately want to get rid of Buchholz, I think we have to make the best of it for this season. I'm hoping he will get into a groove and pitch some games commensurate with his talent level. He does have great stuff, but he is physically fragile and mentally he doesn't seem to have that edge to put him into the next level. He is a skilled craftsman, but not an artist.

 

On a talk show over the weekend, someone said that when Buchholz has been good he's been good from the start and when he's been mediocre or bad, he's been mediocre or bad from the start. Keep in mind 2012. His ERA over his first six starts was over 9.00. Over his next 22 starts his ERA was around 3.55 and if you take out the last start, his ERA over the next 21 starts was something like 3.15. So there is a chance that once he gets going, he could go on a run.

[TedWilliams101]

I do understand you. And I do believe that I have at least a little understanding of Dominican pride.

 

My comment was just to point out the obvious. Ortiz and some other people with dark skin have African heritage. That somewhere along the line someone in their family tree was from Africa.

 

I hate this line of thinking because we are all 'from Africa'. "African American" is just political correct nonsense. People are so caught up on racism and skin color. Race is a completely meaningless term. I especially hate the 'race' box on standardized applications, forms, etc. Hispanic, black, caucasian, Jesus jumping christ, 5 boxes, of which there are ethnicities mixed with skin color. Either ask what country you were born in or don't ask the stupid question. 5 boxes...

[TedWilliams101]

I do understand you. And I do believe that I have at least a little understanding of Dominican pride.

 

My comment was just to point out the obvious. Ortiz and some other people with dark skin have African heritage. That somewhere along the line someone in their family tree was from Africa.

 

I hate this line of thinking because we are all 'from Africa'. "African American" is just political correct nonsense. People are so caught up on racism and skin color. Race is a completely meaningless term. I especially hate the 'race' box on standardized applications, forms, etc. Hispanic, black, caucasian, Jesus jumping christ, 5 boxes, of which there are ethnicities mixed with skin color. Either ask what country you were born in or don't ask the stupid question. 5 boxes...

 

The only way to end racism and any type of labeling, grouping, and judging is to stop labeling, grouping, and judging! Skin color is a really stupid way to identify people, it says almost nothing about a persons heritage, ethnicities, views, etc. Continuing to differentiate, even if intentions are good (such as identifying that racism still exists and people of dark skin and differing ethnicities face discrimination), just exacerbate the issue. Deal with racism, discrimination, and hate as it occurs. Of course there's nothing wrong with people identifying themselves and being proud of who they are and their heritage, though I do sometimes think it can be a little much (Do we really need a LGBT event every single day on college campuses... We get it, your LGBT, you've faced discrimation in the past. This isn't a rally, no one is discriminating you at college, you can calm the f*ck down... I don't go around making "I'm Straight!" events."

[Spudboy]

I hate this line of thinking because we are all 'from Africa'. "African American" is just political correct nonsense. People are so caught up on racism and skin color. Race is a completely meaningless term. I especially hate the 'race' box on standardized applications, forms, etc. Hispanic, black, caucasian, Jesus jumping christ, 5 boxes, of which there are ethnicities mixed with skin color. Either ask what country you were born in or don't ask the stupid question. 5 boxes...

 

So what does you rant have to do with me?

[StephenCurry30]

@TedWilliams101, I wholeheartedly agree about the gay and lesbian comments. I don't hate gay and lesbian people, but the amount of respect and camera time they get for being gay is pure absurdity. Michael Sam was gay, he wasn't good at football as other guys, was cut "oh I'm cut because Im gay???!!" Its pure absurdity. I don't care that Jason Collins was a gay NBA player, I wouldn't care if the Red Sox had a gay player, if you are a gay, albino black man who decided to date a transgender person, I DONT CARE. Just do your job, and shut up about it.

[Kimmi]

1. To date? No - obviously

2. Picking up his extension was a no-brainer, full stop

 

Short and to the point. And 100% correct.

[Kimmi]

BTW - now might be a good time to let everyone know.

the stats on my OP are NOT Clay Buchholz stats. they are Mr. David Price's stats.

 

I have very little doubt that Price will get it going. I have confidence in Clay to get it going too, but less confidence in him than I do in Price.

 

That said, I think you have a very valid point in how both pitchers have pitched poorly, yet Price seems to be getting a pass while Buchholz is being highly criticized.

[User Name]

Price has been heavily criticized and scrutinized too. The problem is: A) Track record. Even in crappy starts, Price is going deep into games.

 

Besides, the peripheral numbers point to Price being unlucky, and Clay just plain sucking.