Clay Buchholz - Is he worth the 2016 option?

[Jack Flap]

First of all, I completely misread the OP (though it says "2016" right there in the title) and assumed we were talking about whether or not to pick up his 2017 option, hence my reply. I did support picking up the 2016 option and still believe it was the right call.

 

Other than that:

-While Price and Buchholz are currently sporting similarly ugly ERAs, delving into more advanced stats would suggest that Price has actually pitched much better than his ERA would indicate (similar to Buchholz last April), while Clay's peripherals are scarier than the ERA.

-People's perceptions of the two are rightly colored by the fact that Price has a lengthy track record of ace-like performance, while Clay has never managed this over a full season and has instead burned us time and again.

-I might have missed it, but I don't think anyone said anything remotely approaching "jesus christ clay sucks. DD is an idiot for picking up his option. clay is a bitch"..? Everyone realizes it's early and patience is called for.

[Dojji]

One thing Price is that clay isn't is DURABLE. He may be having a very very bad month, but at least the bullpen isn't having to clean up after him the way it sometimes has to with buchholz. His crap outing against NYY he got through 7. Clay has yet to get through 7 this season.

[User Name]

One thing Price is that clay isn't is DURABLE. He may be having a very very bad month, but at least the bullpen isn't having to clean up after him the way it sometimes has to with buchholz. His crap outing against NYY he got through 7. Clay has yet to get through 7 this season.

 

This is an excellent point.

[Spudboy]

One thing Price is that clay isn't is DURABLE. He may be having a very very bad month, but at least the bullpen isn't having to clean up after him the way it sometimes has to with buchholz. His crap outing against NYY he got through 7. Clay has yet to get through 7 this season.

 

Just more evidence that Price is a far superior pitcher with a heart of a lion.

 

Comparing the two makes no sense at all. They are both pitchers. That is true!

 

But they are in no way comparable.

 

Good point Dojji.

[Slasher9]

One thing Price is that clay isn't is DURABLE. He may be having a very very bad month, but at least the bullpen isn't having to clean up after him the way it sometimes has to with buchholz. His crap outing against NYY he got through 7. Clay has yet to get through 7 this season.

 

this is true. Price averages 2 more outs per start than Clay. almost a whole inning.

unless of course Clay pitches a CG in his next start. then they will be even.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Slasher9

[Slasher9]

Just more evidence that Price is a far superior pitcher with a heart of a lion.

 

Comparing the two makes no sense at all. They are both pitchers. That is true!

 

But they are in no way comparable.

 

Good point Dojji.

 

Quantify how Price has a heart of a lion?

[User Name]

What exactly is your point? I don't see it.

[Dojji]

this is true. Price averages 2 more outs per start than Clay. almost a whole inning.

unless of course Clay pitches a CG in his next start. then they will be even.

 

Over 32 starts each (assuming Clay actually makes 32 starts, which he never has before) 2/3 of an inning becomes about 21 additional innings the bullpen doesn't have to pick up because the starter stayed in the game that much longer.

 

If you don't think that number you just cited is very very VERY significant, you're just wrong.

[Spudboy]

Neither do I.

 

I don't believe I need to explain "heart of a lion" when describing Price.

 

I've watched his entire MLB career. Anyone who has done the same knows what I am speaking about. He is known for not only his immense talent, but for his competitive nature as well.

 

In stark contrast to "dear in the headlights" Buch.

 

Maybe I have imagined that they have a different temperament. I guess that would mean that most everyone else has as well.

[Slasher9]

What exactly is your point? I don't see it.

 

Price's pitching stats thus far as a Boston Red Sox SP are bad enough for folk to think they are Clay's 2016 numbers.

[Slasher9]

Over 32 starts each (assuming Clay actually makes 32 starts, which he never has before) 2/3 of an inning becomes about 21 additional innings the bullpen doesn't have to pick up because the starter stayed in the game that much longer.

 

If you don't think that number you just cited is very very VERY significant, you're just wrong.

yup. your math looks correct. but they are only at 5 starts (Price 6). so it is not yet very very VERY significant.

[Slasher9]

Neither do I.

 

I don't believe I need to explain "heart of a lion" when describing Price.

 

I've watched his entire MLB career. Anyone who has done the same knows what I am speaking about. He is known for not only his immense talent, but for his competitive nature as well.

 

In stark contrast to "dear in the headlights" Buch.

 

Maybe I have imagined that they have a different temperament. I guess that would mean that most everyone else has as well.

 

Hopefully that "heart of a lion" translates to a sub 6 ERA for our $31MM man very soon?

 

i'll take the heart of a tree frog if it comes with an ERA of ~ 3.

[StephenCurry30]

Seems like whenever the Sox make a big time African American signing, they fail more times then not, Mike Cameron, Carl Crawford, David Price, Tony Clark, Jose Offerman, Andre Dawson, etc. Not a racist comment, just an odd trend worth noting.

[Dojji]

yup. your math looks correct. but they are only at 5 starts (Price 6). so it is not yet very very VERY significant.

 

But it is. The bullpen isn't cashing in those innings in a lump sum, this is an effect that bears subtle fruit throughout the year, this is a third of an inning of extra wear and tear here, two thirds of an inning there, but the result at the end of the year could be pitchers burnt out or not burnt out.

[Dojji]

Seems like whenever the Sox make a big time African American signing, they fail more times then not, Mike Cameron, Carl Crawford, David Price, Tony Clark, Jose Offerman, Andre Dawson, etc. Not a racist comment, just an odd trend worth noting.

 

if you don't think David Ortiz has a lot of Africa in his genome, I don't know what to tell you.

[StephenCurry30]

Ortiz is Dominican, is skin color is black, but he isn't "African American". Would you consider Manny Ramirez and Mookie Betts the same race?

[Dojji]

Yeah, kinda, but even guys whose job it is to determine someone's race, such as the Census, note how blurry things get when Hispanics are involved. Spanish colonists were simply that much more cosmopolitan than some of the rest of us, so they've had centuries' head start in blending the genome compared to us uptight Englishmen.

[StephenCurry30]

Fair enough, I guess it is hard to decide what race a guy is sometimes. Vazquez and Sandoval are both Puerto Rican, but have completely different skin colors. I guess we could add Chris Young and Rusney Castillo into my list of s***** people we signed of the descent.

[User Name]

Hispanic is Hispanic. Ortiz is hispanic. No ifs or buts about it.

[Dojji]

It should be hard to decide what race people are. Race is often a completely arbitrary construct. The more we blend and blur the lines between the races the more we can find something else to be snobs about.

[User Name]

But Ortiz is hispanic. In fact, he had a very public spat when he was not yet a star and played winter leagues becausea European reporter called him and African American.

[StephenCurry30]

For me - if you are born in American and are black, that is african american, mike cameron, david price, jackie bradley, mookie betts, chris young, those guys fit the profile.

 

Ortiz, Hanley, Manny Ramirez, Manny Delcarmen, those guys are Dominican, they are hispanic. I would also consider Pablo Sandoval and Vazquez both hispanic. Is this accurate? Probably not, but just the way I look at it.

[Dojji]

Well you're right according to the census.

[StephenCurry30]

Just easier to identify that way, again none of this really matters. We could have Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer pitching for us, if they have an ERA below 3.00 and saves the bullpen, I wont judge.

[User Name]

It is accurate. And it's a matter of national pride for guys who, like me, are hispanic. Dojji wouldn't understand that because he's never had his race mixed up with some other. While living in the US, some of the Dominicans on scholarships got called everything from "uppity black guy" (me) to "Indian with weird English" (my friend David) which is honestly hilarious until you correct someone and then they try to tell you that you don't know which race you or your compatriots are.

[mvp 78]

Price's pitching stats thus far as a Boston Red Sox SP are bad enough for folk to think they are Clay's 2016 numbers.

 

We know and it has been talked about all over this board which I previously stated.

[User Name]

Peripheral and advanced stats:

 

Price: 12.03 K/9 (!), 2.21 BB/9, .362 BABIP (!), 57.3 LOB% (!), 2.88 FIP

 

Buchholz: 6.18 K/9, 4.23 BB/9, .314 BABIP, 64.4 LOB%, 5.20 FIP.

 

Price has the profile of an ace who has run into some bad luck with balls in play and RISP. Clay has the profile of someone who sucks. It's not a bad thing to call a spade a spade.

[mvp 78]

Dat FIP...

[RiceLynnEvans]

It's tough to get behind CB.....he has head-spinning stuff when he's on, but it seems that he lacks that certain mix focus and competitiveness that pitchers like Price make a living on. He'll seemingly have his stuff some nights, then a walk will distract him, then that leads to more baserunners and more mistakes......that night last weekend in Houston when he was seemingly hitting a groove after a shaky start....he got two outs in the fifth or sixth, then a walk, then baserunners, then he serves up an 0-2 grand slam to their cleanup guy......he threw two ballbreaking benders to get Rasmus to 0-2, then a flat wheelhouse gopherball. THAT is CB in a nutshell. Every season he seems to get hot and show that promise, then an injury.....or a three month slump.....or we get the Clay that looks like he'd rather be anywhere than on the mound.....that lackadaisical Clay that gives us a few innings of nothing, then tells us at the press conference how everything was working, just wasn't hitting my spots. CB....BS.

[Spudboy]

Fair enough, I guess it is hard to decide what race a guy is sometimes. Vazquez and Sandoval are both Puerto Rican, but have completely different skin colors. I guess we could add Chris Young and Rusney Castillo into my list of s***** people we signed of the descent.

 

Pablo is from Puerto Rico?