Does size really matter?

[cp176]

We can go back and forth about this all day, but we'll never know for sure. I think they would have loved having Lester back under their terms. I know you and many others disagree. It's all speculation on both of our parts. I am sure the FO has both a short and long term plan in place. We don't know the full extent of that either - again it's mostly speculation. I would also be very surprised if Victorino is around next year, with the glut of outfielders that we have. Napoli is more of a possiblity IMO, but there we'll have to wait to see how things play out this season.

 

Oh no we don't disagree - The Red Sox would have loved to have Lester back on their terms. That is the key. I truly think that they easily could have outbid the Cubs if they had wanted to. I still think that if the pitcher becomes available that they want, they will get him.

[cp176]

That was only a PR move imo.

 

I'm thinking you are right. Henry told him how far they would go and that was that.

[cp176]

Back to the topic... This thread sounds like un albur jaja well played cp.

 

ty I think - whatever that means - I just wanted to get something going.

[cp176]

ty I think - whatever that means - I just wanted to get something going.

 

One more time - we should all say this together as we pledge our allegiance to our most sweat stained Red Sox cap - If they want them badly enough, they will get them. Look what they have done! $ be damned. Somewhere like it or not Big George is actually smiling down (or up) on us and saying - It's about freaking time. Maybe not freaking.

[iortiz]

ty I think - whatever that means - I just wanted to get something going.

 

Albur here in Mexico is speak in double sense.

[cp176]

Albur here in Mexico is speak in double sense.

 

I'm in need of entertainment iortiz. Trying to stir the pot a little.

[Kimmi]

Oh no we don't disagree - The Red Sox would have loved to have Lester back on their terms. That is the key. I truly think that they easily could have outbid the Cubs if they had wanted to. I still think that if the pitcher becomes available that they want, they will get him.

 

Actually cp, I think we do disagree. But that's okay.

[iortiz]

I'm in need of entertainment iortiz. Trying to stir the pot a little.

 

It's oks cp, we need something like this... The offseason has been a little slow for us.

[Spitball]

My theory is that they looked at the declining strikeout rate, his age, one good-verygood season in the last 3 and priced that into their "pre-season" negotiating strategy. They crafted an offer that would satisfy a "past peak" guy (and might in fact be fair looking at future performance) but nothing that could prevent Lester from making a bet on himself and going to the open market. But then Lester bounced back and bore an amazing resemblance to the 2009 version of Jon Lester, and when you take that combined with his remarkable durability - he changed the parameters. And you get to an open market, it's a crapshoot.

 

I think the Red Sox view of Lester fundamentally changed based on Lester's form in 2014 - the continuation and improvement on his end of 2013 form might have gone from outlier to "genuine improvement". The problem is by the time they figured this out - Lester was available for all to bid.

 

I have expressed this theory myself at one point. This, combined with his willing participation in the beer and fried chicken scandal, had to have the Sox questioning him going forward for huge money into his later thirties. I also believe Epstein was determined to go to ridiculous levels to obtain Lester from his former team. Lester has moved on, and it is time for us to move on.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Spitball

[seabeachfred]

I have expressed this theory myself at one point. This, combined with his willing participation in the beer and fried chicken scandal, had to have the Sox questioning him going forward for huge money into his later thirties. I also believe Epstein was determined to go to ridiculous levels to obtain Lester from his former team. Lester has moved on, and it is time for us to move on.

 

Yes Spitball, we have to move on.....but we must not forget how the Red Sox blew it and badly with that ridiculous low ball offer shitface Lucchino came out with last Spring. Of course I've come to the conclusion that maybe the front office didn't want to sign him after all and made a cursory offer they knew would be bettered and took the fifth. Still we need another top notch pitcher and my worry is if we wait until the TD we face two possibilities....one, we might be out of the race by then, or, two, the pitchers we covet might have already been resigned their their respective teams. Not all teams lowball their players as we sometimes do.

[Bellhorn04]

In a matter of this importance, why do so many people assume that Lucchino got to make the final call on that initial offer to Lester? If you believe that you believe he's running the team and that Henry wouldn't overrule him. Henry had to be on board with it.

[a700hitter]

It's just silly to lay it all at Lucchino's doorstep. People are desperate to find a fallguy so they can absolve the rest. The fish rots from the head.

[User Name]

Yes Spitball, we have to move on.....but we must not forget how the Red Sox blew it and badly with that ridiculous low ball offer shitface Lucchino came out with last Spring. Of course I've come to the conclusion that maybe the front office didn't want to sign him after all and made a cursory offer they knew would be bettered and took the fifth. Still we need another top notch pitcher and my worry is if we wait until the TD we face two possibilities....one, we might be out of the race by then, or, two, the pitchers we covet might have already been resigned their their respective teams. Not all teams lowball their players as we sometimes do.

 

Actually, yeah. All teams do this. Even the Yankees.

[SoxnCycles]

Yes Spitball, we have to move on.....but we must not forget how the Red Sox blew it and badly with that ridiculous low ball offer shitface Lucchino came out with last Spring. Of course I've come to the conclusion that maybe the front office didn't want to sign him after all and made a cursory offer they knew would be bettered and took the fifth. Still we need another top notch pitcher and my worry is if we wait until the TD we face two possibilities....one, we might be out of the race by then, or, two, the pitchers we covet might have already been resigned their their respective teams. Not all teams lowball their players as we sometimes do.

 

Why?

Frankly, I've got better things to do than catalog the Sox FO's failures.

That goes for their successes too.

2013 was great, but it was two seasons ago.

2014 sucked, but it was last season.

I'm more interested in this season.

[Kimmi]

In a matter of this importance, why do so many people assume that Lucchino got to make the final call on that initial offer to Lester? If you believe that you believe he's running the team and that Henry wouldn't overrule him. Henry had to be on board with it.

 

 

I'm sure that Henry gave his okay on it, but I am convinced that it was Lucchino's idea and influence. I have no proof of this other than anecdotal evidence (which yes, we know is a weak argument), but nor do I have any proof to convince me otherwise.

[a700hitter]

I'm sure that Henry gave his okay on it, but I am convinced that it was Lucchino's idea and influence. I have no proof of this other than anecdotal evidence (which yes, we know is a weak argument), but nor do I have any proof to convince me otherwise.

What is the anectdotal evidence? Isn't what you are calling anectodal evidence also rumor/opinion and not fact. Also, based on your postings at TS you have professed a dislike/bias against LL.

[mvp 78]

LL is a dope, but I think management probably defers to Ben in almost all cases. They probably give him a budget and free reign to fill that budget.

[mvp 78]

It's hard to separate each individual part of the FO as we aren't in the office with them.

[Kimmi]

What is the anectdotal evidence? Isn't what you are calling anectodal evidence also rumor/opinion and not fact. Also, based on your postings at TS you have professed a dislike/bias against LL.

 

 

First of all, I fully admit that I have a dislike/bias against LL. This dislike of LL goes hand in hand with my opinion that Theo is God. Is that slanting my opinion? Of course it is. I said that I had no proof. But no one has yet to give me proof otherwise either.

 

Knowing Theo's philosophy about building a franchise, and knowing that Theo and Lucchino often butted heads over their differences in philosophies, and knowing that Lucchino's emphasis is on the business aspect of things, lead me to believe that when bad things happen with this team, Lucchino's influence is likely the culprit. Exhibit A is Bobby Valentine. Exhibit B is Carl Crawford. Exhibit C is the Theo/Gorilla Suit Escapade. Yes, I know that Theo accepted responsibility for the Crawford signing, but he would have never made that move without Lucchino's influence.

[Kimmi]

It's hard to separate each individual part of the FO as we aren't in the office with them.

 

That's the bottom line right there. None of us knows for sure who has how much influence when it comes to the decisions. But that's not going to stop me from ranting against Lucchino when I get the chance.

[iortiz]

The calls come from the owner. All the other guys in the FO are just working ants with different range of influence on him. Edited February 27, 2015 by iortiz

[a700hitter]

That's the bottom line right there. None of us knows for sure who has how much influence when it comes to the decisions. But that's not going to stop me from ranting against Lucchino when I get the chance.

Fair enough. Your feelings about him have been made clear, and I will not give you any guff when you do, because I have no affinity for FO personnel ever.

[Spudboy]

I think all three front office guys are pukes.

[SoxnCycles]

I think all three front office guys are pukes.

 

Most successful business men are.

I'll take these pukes everyday over the Yawkeys and Yawkey trust folks.

[Bellhorn04]

Most successful business men are.

I'll take these pukes everyday over the Yawkeys and Yawkey trust folks.

 

They're the best pukes we've ever had by far.

[User Name]

It's like all of the championships and winning seasons have bought no goodwill among the faithful of what has annoyingly become the most entitled fanbase in all of sports. May God help us all.

[Bellhorn04]

It's like all of the championships and winning seasons have bought no goodwill among the faithful of what has annoyingly become the most entitled fanbase in all of sports. May God help us all.

 

No one is spared. Henry, Lucchino, Werner, Epstein, Cherington, Francona, Farrell. They've all taken a lot of abuse.

[Kimmi]

+1 to SoxnCycles, Bellhorn, and User.

[mvp 78]

All my goodwill rests with Henry and Ben. LL seems to have his own idea of what the Red Sox should do and has undercut the GM in the past. Werner is just a NESN muppet who only cares about crappy secondary programming.

 

- 1 to SnC

-1.25 to Bell (Canadian exchange rate)

- 666 to UN (DR exchange rate)

[User Name]

It's 45 to 1.