Does size really matter?

[Kimmi]

On this "forum" you have no right to free speech. A mod can ban you for whatever they feel like. This is closer to mother Russia than a freedom loving country like Norway. Our KGB is in hibernation for the moment.

 

 

I haven't been around that long, but from what I've seen so far, it looks like pretty much anything is tolerated here. How often does the KGB actually check in?

[Kimmi]

Comfy pants are best pants.

 

 

Comfy is absolutely the way to go. I have no clue what "dad pants" are, but wear them proudly!

[Bellhorn04]

Comfy is absolutely the way to go. I have no clue what "dad pants" are, but wear them proudly!

 

Comfy pants are great for wearin', not so much for watchin'.

[a700hitter]

On this "forum" you have no right to free speech. A mod can ban you for whatever they feel like. This is closer to mother Russia than a freedom loving country like Norway. Our KGB is in hibernation for the moment.

 

You can also be sued for defaming someone, but the point of free speech is except in very rare circumstances, the government cannot imprison you for your speech. No one is forced to provide you with a platform to exercise that speech, so you are right that forums can ban you if they disagree with you. Newspapers and magazines don't have to publish our opinions either. But even heavily moderated boards do not treat criticism of the FO as rule infractions subject to banning.

[mvp 78]

I haven't been around that long, but from what I've seen so far, it looks like pretty much anything is tolerated here. How often does the KGB actually check in?

 

Whenever Yeszir is watching a game.

[SoxnCycles]

I guess some folks don't know the meaning of "have at it".

I didn't think it was that provincial a phrase.

[Behindenemylines]

I'll try this another way. How about the size of contracts being paid.. Couple of things here - there are some on board who think that the Red Sox might be restricted by some sort of budget considerations. I am not. Well, maybe I am - I think that they are willing to pay whatever they have to to get the players(s) they want. They won't over spend unless they are sure. How about a 165 million dollar committment to two players who have virtually no experience at the major league level. Is that over spending? Read an interesting article this morning that I agree with. Castillo should not be handed a position unless he earns it. If Victorino gets traded, the story changes. If not, let the games begin. I have said this before - I don't think they really wanted John Lester back as much as some people say they did. They did not get outplayed. they just did not value him as much as the Cubs did. I think that they have had another plan all along. It is one that I like.

 

The Sox put a value on Lester and that was the highest they planned to go. The Cubs had to over spent to ensure getting him and that is what happened.

[Kimmi]

The Sox put a value on Lester and that was the highest they planned to go. The Cubs had to over spent to ensure getting him and that is what happened.

 

 

Sometimes this approach is difficult to accept as a fan, but from the FO's point of view, it's just smart business. Because the FO would not go any higher in its offer does not mean that the team did not want that player.

[Kimmi]

Had to make another post because I didn't like having a 666 post count.

[cp176]

Sometimes this approach is difficult to accept as a fan, but from the FO's point of view, it's just smart business. Because the FO would not go any higher in its offer does not mean that the team did not want that player.

 

If you truly believe that they operate this way, then I am happy for you. After seeing what they have spent and for who they spent it on, I'm afraid I think that if they had wanted him badly enough he would be here. I also do not consider it a big time blow to the franchise either. I think they are ok with what they have.

[Bellhorn04]

If you truly believe that they operate this way, then I am happy for you. After seeing what they have spent and for who they spent it on, I'm afraid I think that if they had wanted him badly enough he would be here.

 

I agree with your last statement. I also believe that if the Sox really wanted Lester back they would have offered him at least $100 million in the offseason and come to an agreement.

 

Compared to Sandoval and Hanley deals, though, Lester would have been a riskier play. It would have been more money and paid him up to a higher age. And pitchers are riskier to begin with.

 

Time will tell if they made the right call.

[cp176]

I agree with your last statement. I also believe that if the Sox really wanted Lester back they would have offered him at least $100 million in the offseason and come to an agreement.

 

Compared to Sandoval and Hanley deals, though, Lester would have been a riskier play. It would have been more money and paid him up to a higher age. And pitchers are riskier to begin with.

 

Time will tell if they made the right call.

 

I agree with you. It is a little sad not having Lester for most. He was a big part of the organization. In all fairness to ownership their last offer was not bad. I just think that they have been moving in a different direction for a while now. They have gotten younger and better. Ultimately I think their pitching staff will be a strong one as well.

[Kimmi]

If you truly believe that they operate this way, then I am happy for you. After seeing what they have spent and for who they spent it on, I'm afraid I think that if they had wanted him badly enough he would be here. I also do not consider it a big time blow to the franchise either. I think they are ok with what they have.

 

 

By your reasoning, you're saying the FO has not wanted any of the free agents that got away. Don't you think it's possible, and probable, that they did in fact want many of the guys that signed elsewhere, but just couldn't see beating some other team's over the top offer? As I've mentioned before, there just comes a point where you have to say that offer is too much.

 

As far as who the Sox signed this offseason, what do you think would have happened if some other team outbid the Sox by $30 mil? Do you think the Sox would have upped their offer? I don't. Does that then mean that they really didn't want that player?

[Spitball]

As far as who the Sox signed this offseason, what do you think would have happened if some other team outbid the Sox by $30 mil? Do you think the Sox would have upped their offer? I don't. Does that then mean that they really didn't want that player?

 

In my opinion, that is just smart management.

[Bellhorn04]

By your reasoning, you're saying the FO has not wanted any of the free agents that got away. Don't you think it's possible, and probable, that they did in fact want many of the guys that signed elsewhere, but just couldn't see beating some other team's over the top offer? As I've mentioned before, there just comes a point where you have to say that offer is too much.

 

Kimmi, I think the question at hand now is how the Sox specifically handled the negotiations with Lester. He was not just any free agent, because they had a big time window to deal with him, and they did make him an offer in the offseason. But in the history of big contract negotiations I don't think a team has ever made such a huge jump from opening offer to final offer. They ended up doubling their initial offer. That is very strange, if we're taking the position that the Red Sox 'assign values and stick to them.'

 

I think the only way the negotiations can be looked on as systematic or methodical is if the ultimate plan was to let him go.

[User Name]

Kimmi, I think the question at hand now is how the Sox specifically handled the negotiations with Lester. He was not just any free agent, because they had a big time window to deal with him, and they did make him an offer in the offseason. But in the history of big contract negotiations I don't think a team has ever made such a huge jump from opening offer to final offer. They ended up doubling their initial offer. That is very strange, if we're taking the position that the Red Sox 'assign values and stick to them.'

 

I think the only way the negotiations can be looked on as systematic or methodical is if the ultimate plan was to let him go.

 

*Adjust tinfoil hat* Which is what I think happened.

[Kimmi]

In my opinion, that is just smart management.

 

 

That's exactly what it is. Otherwise, we'd be in the situation that the Yankees find themselves in.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, I think the question at hand now is how the Sox specifically handled the negotiations with Lester. He was not just any free agent, because they had a big time window to deal with him, and they did make him an offer in the offseason. But in the history of big contract negotiations I don't think a team has ever made such a huge jump from opening offer to final offer. They ended up doubling their initial offer. That is very strange, if we're taking the position that the Red Sox 'assign values and stick to them.'

 

I think the only way the negotiations can be looked on as systematic or methodical is if the ultimate plan was to let him go.

 

 

No doubt the way the FO handled the Lester negotiations leads one to wonder what was going on their minds. I can't rule out the possibility that they really didn't want Lester back.

 

However, I think it's also possible that they just messed up with that original offer. Remember that the original offer was supposedly based off of Beckett's offer, and that the original offer was made prior to Lester having his career season. Add to that Lester's willingness to accept a discount, and I can understand why they would start with that amount, with the complete understanding that the two sides would negotiate from there. I still think that the FO screwed up with that initial offer, but I don't think that the initial offer necessarily indicates that they didn't want Lester back.

 

I also don't think that Henry would make the last ditch effort to talk to Lester just for show. That seems like a rather extreme gesture to make just to appease the fans.

[cp176]

By your reasoning, you're saying the FO has not wanted any of the free agents that got away. Don't you think it's possible, and probable, that they did in fact want many of the guys that signed elsewhere, but just couldn't see beating some other team's over the top offer? As I've mentioned before, there just comes a point where you have to say that offer is too much.

 

As far as who the Sox signed this offseason, what do you think would have happened if some other team outbid the Sox by $30 mil? Do you think the Sox would have upped their offer? I don't. Does that then mean that they really didn't want that player?

 

 

I am not sure that my reasoning is a lot different than yours. I think that this team has proven that they are willing to overpay or outbid call it what you like other teams for specific players. I do not think that they were willing to overpay or outbid others for Lester. I think that it entailed a combination of other factors in addition to the money. I do not think that they are particularly disappointed that they do not have him. We might be but I don't think they are.

[Spudboy]

I can't believe that Talksox is still debating the Lester issue.

 

Waste of bandwidth.

[cp176]

I can't believe that Talksox is still debating the Lester issue.

 

Waste of bandwidth.

 

 

Lester is a tired old story but the way the Sox do business and their forward thinking toward the future isn't.

[Bellhorn04]

However, I think it's also possible that they just messed up with that original offer. Remember that the original offer was supposedly based off of Beckett's offer, and that the original offer was made prior to Lester having his career season. Add to that Lester's willingness to accept a discount, and I can understand why they would start with that amount, with the complete understanding that the two sides would negotiate from there. I still think that the FO screwed up with that initial offer, but I don't think that the initial offer necessarily indicates that they didn't want Lester back.

 

OK, I get the Beckett offer thing, but I find it really hard to believe that they didn't notice that Homer Bailey signed a 6 year, $105 million extension on Feb. 19, precisely 150% of the offer to Lester, or that they wouldn't realize that Lester and his agents would feel they were being outrageously lowballed in reference to Bailey and the current market. You'd pretty much have to believe they were being buffoons.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Bellhorn04

[Kimmi]

I am not sure that my reasoning is a lot different than yours. I think that this team has proven that they are willing to overpay or outbid call it what you like other teams for specific players. I do not think that they were willing to overpay or outbid others for Lester. I think that it entailed a combination of other factors in addition to the money. I do not think that they are particularly disappointed that they do not have him. We might be but I don't think they are.

 

 

I still don't think we agree on how much the FO is willing to spend. I think the FO is willing to overpay on most players that they are interested in. These days, you almost have to. They are just not willing to grossly overpay. You sound as though you believe the FO will pay whatever is necessary on certain players that they really want. I don't think they will. If the Yankees had offered $10 million more on Moncada, he would likely be a Yankee right now.

[Kimmi]

I can't believe that Talksox is still debating the Lester issue.

 

Waste of bandwidth.

 

 

Gives me something to do.

[Kimmi]

OK, I get the Beckett offer thing, but I find it really hard to believe that they didn't notice that Homer Bailey signed a 6 year, $105 million extension on Feb. 19, precisely 150% of the offer to Lester, or that they wouldn't realize that Lester and his agents would feel they were being outrageously lowballed in reference to Bailey and the current market. You'd pretty much have to believe they were being buffoons.

 

 

Well, when it comes to baseball ops, Lucchino is a buffoon. I know the $70 mil offer doesn't make any sense. I think they messed up big time.

[Ogden]

I can't believe that Talksox is still debating the Lester issue.

 

Waste of bandwidth.

 

 

Apply for a refund.

[a700hitter]

I can't believe that Talksox is still debating the Lester issue.

 

Waste of bandwidth.

Is there an expiration date on issues we discuss? If anyone is still alive who remembers the 1948 season they are probably still questioning the decision to start Denny Galehous in the playoff game against the Guardians. The only thing that settles an issue is winning. Winning ends whining. Until this staff proves that it isn't just a collection of no-name mediocrities, I will be pissed about losing Lester. Any explanation offered is just a weak-ass rationalization as far as I am concerned. If those excuses make people feel better, good for them. I not buying any of it.

[cp176]

Is there an expiration date on issues we discuss? If anyone is still alive who remembers the 1948 season they are probably still questioning the decision to start Denny Galehous in the playoff game against the Guardians. The only thing that settles an issue is winning. Winning ends whining. Until this staff proves that it isn't just a collection of no-name mediocrities, I will be pissed about losing Lester. Any explanation offered is just a weak-ass rationalization as far as I am concerned. If those excuses make people feel better, good for them. I not buying any of it.

 

Hey - Aren't you down there enjoying some bb and warm weather?

[cp176]

I still don't think we agree on how much the FO is willing to spend. I think the FO is willing to overpay on most players that they are interested in. These days, you almost have to. They are just not willing to grossly overpay. You sound as though you believe the FO will pay whatever is necessary on certain players that they really want. I don't think they will. If the Yankees had offered $10 million more on Moncada, he would likely be a Yankee right now.

 

Well let's see - since in this case !0 mil = 20 mil, if the Yanks had made that offer, yes I agree, I think the Sox would have stepped away. I hope so anyway. These aren't the Yanks of King George's era nor are these the same Sox. A lot has happened over the years. Within reason I think the Sox will be willing to pay for whom they want. Moot point right now though. The issues right now will seem to center around how they deal with their surplus of players and whether that pitching staff can get the job done. That ball Howard hit off Masterson yesterday didn't look much like a groundball to me until it came to rest a few hundred feet from home plate. I'm cheering for him - hope he gets it done.

[Kimmi]

Is there an expiration date on issues we discuss? If anyone is still alive who remembers the 1948 season they are probably still questioning the decision to start Denny Galehous in the playoff game against the Guardians. The only thing that settles an issue is winning. Winning ends whining. Until this staff proves that it isn't just a collection of no-name mediocrities, I will be pissed about losing Lester. Any explanation offered is just a weak-ass rationalization as far as I am concerned. If those excuses make people feel better, good for them. I not buying any of it.

 

Why is it weak rationalization? Because the FO didn't make the moves that you thought it should make? I am not happy about losing Lester either, but I am pleased with what they did in rebuilding the rest of the rotation. I am very glad that the FO did not panic or overreact after losing Lester and overpay for some other pitcher.

 

We have to resign ourselves to the fact that our starters are not going to be lights out. However, they should be good enough to let the offense do its job in winning games.