Cora and 4 coaches sacked!

[JoeBrady]

57 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I guess it's a matter of choice, and we have to pick one methodology

It isn't really a choice if most of the world uses CBT.  Exactly  no one in the world considers the LAD to be a #5 spending team.  Or the the Angels are cheaper than the Pirates.

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

It isn't really a choice if most of the world uses CBT.  Exactly  no one in the world considers the LAD to be a #5 spending team.  Or the the Angels are cheaper than the Pirates.

I agree, but I'm not going to be upset, if someone wants to use actual 2026 salary, since future payments are not guaranteed. (The trade of Devers is a good example.)

[moonslav59]

Going by AAV, the Sox are 6th. The gap between 5 and 6 is over $40M, so we closer to 10th than 5th. That adds some context, too.

The general point posters make is that JH is stingy and not spending enough, and the AAV numbers disprove that.

AAV spending and rankings:

2023: $226M (12th)

2024: $226M (12th)

2025: $249M (7th)

2026: $268M (6th)

I'm fine with people saying we can and should spend more, but to say we are not spending a lot is just not true. We've jumped our AAV budget by over $40M in 2 years.

Complain about how we spent it- fine. Just don't say we are not spending (more.)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

20 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

The general point posters make is that JH is stingy and not spending enough, and the AAV numbers disprove that.

I'm fine with people saying we can and should spend more, but to say we are not spending a lot is just not true. We've jumped our AAV budget by over $40M in 2 years.

Complain about how we spent it- fine. Just don't say we are not spending (more.)

You're right, but you also have to appreciate casual fans or even diehards who know nothing about nor care to know the budget numbers. 

They/we only see their favorite stars jettisoned from Boston over and over since the last title.

For all they/we know, Dombrowski was fired because he wanted to pay Mookie what he was worth, and Bloom was hired to trade Mookie. And then Story was signed so they didn't have to pay Xander, and Raffy was signed just to shut up fans...

.... but Breslow was permitted to sign Bregman for big money and an opt out -- knowing one thing and hoping another: 1. it would piss off Devers enough he'd rebel and allow them to dump his contract; 2. Boras and Bregman would opt out, and it would only cost Henry $40 million to get out of paying Raffy $300 mil.

[Duran Is The Man]

6 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

You're right, but you also have to appreciate casual fans or even diehards who know nothing about nor care to know the budget numbers. 

They/we only see their favorite stars jettisoned from Boston over and over since the last title.

For all they/we know, Dombrowski was fired because he wanted to pay Mookie what he was worth, and Bloom was hired to trade Mookie. And then Story was signed so they didn't have to pay Xander, and Raffy was signed just to shut up fans...

.... but Breslow was permitted to sign Bregman for big money and an opt out -- knowing one thing and hoping another: 1. it would piss off Devers enough he'd rebel and allow them to dump his contract; 2. Boras and Bregman would opt out, and it would only cost Henry $40 million to get out of paying Raffy $300 mil.

fact check: true

[notin]

20 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

You're right, but you also have to appreciate casual fans or even diehards who know nothing about nor care to know the budget numbers. 

They/we only see their favorite stars jettisoned from Boston over and over since the last title.

For all they/we know, Dombrowski was fired because he wanted to pay Mookie what he was worth, and Bloom was hired to trade Mookie. And then Story was signed so they didn't have to pay Xander, and Raffy was signed just to shut up fans...

.... but Breslow was permitted to sign Bregman for big money and an opt out -- knowing one thing and hoping another: 1. it would piss off Devers enough he'd rebel and allow them to dump his contract; 2. Boras and Bregman would opt out, and it would only cost Henry $40 million to get out of paying Raffy $300 mil.

So now Bregman’s contract was a conspiracy to trade Devers?  That does lead to two  painfully obvious questions.

1. Why not just trade Devers? It’s not like any good PR from signing him could outshine the negative PR from dealing him.  And clearly, even with his me-first attitude, Devers was very tradable.

2. Does the risk outweigh the reward? There was always the chance the player doesn’t opt out and then at attempt to drop a $300mill contract winds up costing an additional $80mill.  The Sox probably learned a valuable lesson about opt outs after David Price didn’t exercise his.

This is an over-convoluted conspiracy theory to explain things that didn’t work out, but it’s dealing with an organization that has historically moved on from expensive players and willingly taken the bad PR while simultaneously cashing the good checks.

It turns out all you had to do to make Devers look bad was move him off third base, something that should have been done years ago given his (to be kind) questionable defense there.  This could have been done without risking the $120million on Bregman.

And it’s far more plausible that Dombrowski was fired because he needed the largest payroll in MLB to build a mediocre 84 win team that came nowhere near the postseason, and whose future was heavily reliant on 3 oft-injured pitchers that were still owed a total of $300million.  Even if Dombrowski wanted to pay Mookie more, that kind of thing pribably happens to every CBO at some point and very few (re: none) get fired for it.  It’s more likely that kind of thing would convince Dombrowski to resign than it would get him fired…

[Bellhorn04]

19 minutes ago, notin said:

So now Bregman’s contract was a conspiracy to trade Devers?  That does lead to two  painfully obvious questions.

1. Why not just trade Devers? It’s not like any good PR from signing him could outshine the negative PR from dealing him.  And clearly, even with his me-first attitude, Devers was very tradable.

2. Does the risk outweigh the reward? There was always the chance the player doesn’t opt out and then at attempt to drop a $300mill contract winds up costing an additional $80mill.  The Sox probably learned a valuable lesson about opt outs after David Price didn’t exercise his.

This is an over-convoluted conspiracy theory to explain things that didn’t work out, but it’s dealing with an organization that has historically moved on from expensive players and willingly taken the bad PR while simultaneously cashing the good checks.

It turns out all you had to do to make Devers look bad was move him off third base, something that should have been done years ago given his (to be kind) questionable defense there.  This could have been done without risking the $120million on Bregman.

And it’s far more plausible that Dombrowski was fired because he needed the largest payroll in MLB to build a mediocre 84 win team that came nowhere near the postseason, and whose future was heavily reliant on 3 oft-injured pitchers that were still owed a total of $300million.  Even if Dombrowski wanted to pay Mookie more, that kind of thing pribably happens to every CBO at some point and very few (re: none) get fired for it.  It’s more likely that kind of thing would convince Dombrowski to resign than it would get him fired…

Dombrowski should not have been fired for 2019, no way.  Not after his first 3 seasons resulted in 3 division titles and a WS title.  The pitching collapsed in 2019, because s*** happens.  

I think it's much more plausible that Henry just wanted to go in a different direction, one with a lower payroll, and DD just didn't fit the profile.

[moonslav59]

26 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

You're right, but you also have to appreciate casual fans or even diehards who know nothing about nor care to know the budget numbers. 

They/we only see their favorite stars jettisoned from Boston over and over since the last title.

For all they/we know, Dombrowski was fired because he wanted to pay Mookie what he was worth, and Bloom was hired to trade Mookie. And then Story was signed so they didn't have to pay Xander, and Raffy was signed just to shut up fans...

.... but Breslow was permitted to sign Bregman for big money and an opt out -- knowing one thing and hoping another: 1. it would piss off Devers enough he'd rebel and allow them to dump his contract; 2. Boras and Bregman would opt out, and it would only cost Henry $40 million to get out of paying Raffy $300 mil.

I'm pissed as all hell about the Betts boot and more. There was a long stretch where JH was being stingy, and it sucked.

I get the fact that casual fans might not know or care about the budget, but I'm speaking to those who keep saying over and over that JH is not spending. If you don't know, don't say it, and if you do know, you are not being genuine.

The budget cuts led to a deep decline in our roster value. Luckily, our farm improved and we started seeing some infusion, even from DD prospects. Bloom failed in many ways, but he did a slow rebuild of the roster depth  and farm, while leaving out any major star additions (that worked.) Brez took over and was allowed to spend more. Maybe he was restricted from large and long deals, which limited his choices a bit. 

In an overall sense, I think when you look at the totality of Brez's moves, he's made more good than neutral or bad, and of course most are still TBD, but it just hasn't been enough to get us to a high level of competitiveness. He's made some major mistakes, but it's hard for me personally, to be critical, since I liked the Sale trade and did not want to sign Bregman at even the first offer amount or our final offer.

Anyway, JH is spending more. I wish he'd spend more, and I wish our GMs would spend it more wisely, especially on these short deals like Buehler $21M/1, Sandoval $18M/2, Kluber & Richards $10M/1 and Paxton & Hendriks $10M/2.

[notin]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Dombrowski should not have been fired for 2019, no way.  Not after his first 3 seasons resulted in 3 division titles and a WS title.  The pitching collapsed in 2019, because s*** happens.  

I think it's much more plausible that Henry just wanted to go in a different direction, one with a lower payroll, and DD just didn't fit the profile.

Fair, but what inspired that change in direction? He wanted to stop being successful for no reason?

I could see that change being inspired by the facts (plus others) I mentioned concerning the 2019 team…

[moonslav59]

11 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Dombrowski should not have been fired for 2019, no way.  Not after his first 3 seasons resulted in 3 division titles and a WS title.  The pitching collapsed in 2019, because s*** happens.  

I think it's much more plausible that Henry just wanted to go in a different direction, one with a lower payroll, and DD just didn't fit the profile.

IMO, DD would not have wanted to stay after being forced to trade Betts and not replace any salaries of all the guys who left.

[moonslav59]

Just now, notin said:

Fair, but what inspired that change in direction? He wanted to stop being successful for no reason?

I could see that change being inspired by the facts (plus others) I mentioned concerning the 2019 team…

I think JH genuinely thought we could keep winning despite spending less. If Bloom had the same success as the Rays but with a bigger budget, he'd have been right.

The 2021 season's near-miss only strengthened JH's thinking on spending cuts not affecting success.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

IMO, DD would not have wanted to stay after being forced to trade Betts and not replace any salaries of all the guys who left.

If you look at his history, Dombrowski was fired in Detroit after his very successful run culminated in a mediocre team with ridiculous financial commitments.  I can see parallels in Boston.

I know there were rumors about his difficult personality, etc.  but let’s get real.  He didn’t suddenly morph into a difficult person in 2019. Whether difficult or not, when his team is winning, owners accept him.  But when the winning stops/slows down and the costs don’t, suddenly he’s not held in the same regard…

[notin]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I think JH genuinely thought we could keep winning despite spending less. If Bloom had the same success as the Rays but with a bigger budget, he'd have been right.

The 2021 season's near-miss only strengthened JH's thinking on spending cuts not affecting success.

No doubt.

Im sure every owner wants a cheap winner.  Because if the team doesn’t win, it’s easier to cope with a cheap loser than an expensive one.  It’s also easier to try to fix a cheap loser than an expensive one.

I would hope Henry noticed the 2021 team wasn’t drastically different from the 2018 team…

[Bellhorn04]

13 minutes ago, notin said:

Fair, but what inspired that change in direction? He wanted to stop being successful for no reason?

I could see that change being inspired by the facts (plus others) I mentioned concerning the 2019 team…

The 2019 team was almost identical to the 2018 team.  It's not like DD brought in a bunch of pricy guys in 2019.  They were already there.

[moonslav59]

20 minutes ago, notin said:

If you look at his history, Dombrowski was fired in Detroit after his very successful run culminated in a mediocre team with ridiculous financial commitments.  I can see parallels in Boston.

The same situation is unfolding in Philly.

[Old Red]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The 2019 team was almost identical to the 2018 team.  It's not like DD brought in a bunch of pricy guys in 2019.  They were already there.

The 2019 Red Sox scored more runs than the 2018 Red Sox, but the pitching wasn’t nowhere as good especially from Sale. 

[moonslav59]

19 minutes ago, notin said:

No doubt.

Im sure every owner wants a cheap winner.  Because if the team doesn’t win, it’s easier to cope with a cheap loser than an expensive one.  It’s also easier to try to fix a cheap loser than an expensive one.

I would hope Henry noticed the 2021 team wasn’t drastically different from the 2018 team…

I disagree. The depth was horrible, and there was no Betts, JBJ, Beni, Price, Porcello, Kimbrel and more.

Their contract values were never fully replaced, and some were not replaced, at all. ERod and Nate were the only real pitchers remaining (Sale, too, but always injured.) JD and Bogey were the only everyday stars remaining.

Kike, Renfroe, Verdugo and Dalbec had decent years, but none were sustainable players. Pivetta and Barnes did okay, and the Schwarber addition was key. (Also, Iggy, Shaw, Robles and Davis were useful summer additions.) None cost a lot.

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, Old Red said:

The 2019 Red Sox scored more runs than the 2018 Red Sox, but the pitching wasn’t nowhere as good especially from Sale. 

Yup, and we were soon to lose Betts (almost traded in the summer of '19) JBJ & Beni.

The pitching injuries and off years killed us. We also lost Kimbrel and Kelly and did not replace them in kind.

[Old Red]

34 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm pissed as all hell about the Betts boot and more. There was a long stretch where JH was being stingy, and it sucked.

I get the fact that casual fans might not know or care about the budget, but I'm speaking to those who keep saying over and over that JH is not spending. If you don't know, don't say it, and if you do know, you are not being genuine.

The budget cuts led to a deep decline in our roster value. Luckily, our farm improved and we started seeing some infusion, even from DD prospects. Bloom failed in many ways, but he did a slow rebuild of the roster depth  and farm, while leaving out any major star additions (that worked.) Brez took over and was allowed to spend more. Maybe he was restricted from large and long deals, which limited his choices a bit. 

In an overall sense, I think when you look at the totality of Brez's moves, he's made more good than neutral or bad, and of course most are still TBD, but it just hasn't been enough to get us to a high level of competitiveness. He's made some major mistakes, but it's hard for me personally, to be critical, since I liked the Sale trade and did not want to sign Bregman at even the first offer amount or our final offer.

Anyway, JH is spending more. I wish he'd spend more, and I wish our GMs would spend it more wisely, especially on these short deals like Buehler $21M/1, Sandoval $18M/2, Kluber & Richards $10M/1 and Paxton & Hendriks $10M/2.

Yes I believe most casual fans could care less about the budget especially the ones who actually go to Friendly Fenway, and pay the not so friendly ticket prices. Fans can say whatever they want to even if it is JH is cheap, and doesn’t spend enough, and you’re not ANYONE to say they can’t. Just like Fred who says JH is cheap, and explains why he says it. Genuine to you, and genuine to someone else could be two different things.

[moonslav59]

Just now, Old Red said:

Yes I believe most casual fans could care less about the budget especially the ones who actually go to Friendly Fenway, and pay the not so friendly ticket prices. Fans can say whatever they want to even if it is JH is cheap, and doesn’t spend enough, and you’re not ANYONE to say they can’t. Just like Fred who says JH is cheap, and explains why he says it. Genuine to you, and genuine to someone else could be two different things.

The discussion was about posters who say JH does not spend enough, so if it was "casual fans" who no little about the budget, then they shouldn't be saying things about spending, if they know little about it.

If it's posters who do know about thew budget then they are not being genuine. Please try to keep up with the conversation. (Good luck with that!)

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Complain about how we spent it- fine. Just don't say we are not spending (more.)

They used to be at the top of the mountain in terms of spending. Now they are not. It's fine if people still complain over a lack of spending. Sox are 3rd in revenue. Why not 3rd in spending? 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Red Sox fans who don't care about budgets have seen their favorite players leave over and over since 2018. But it's hard not to read or hear about how much money those guys make, so it's logical that's where their perceptions of Henry comes from. And he refused to pay market value to his best homegrown player from this century. That's not a misperception.

They also remember when Bloom told fans that if we kept Mookie then we wouldn't have Garrett Richards.

Even they/we can see the idiocy behind the cost-cutting plan of paying too many Klubers instead of just keeping one Eovaldi or paying a Paxton or Giolito for two years when they only pitch one... or Sandoval when he pitches none.

[mvp 78]

59 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Dombrowski should not have been fired for 2019, no way.  Not after his first 3 seasons resulted in 3 division titles and a WS title.  The pitching collapsed in 2019, because s*** happens.  

I think it's much more plausible that Henry just wanted to go in a different direction, one with a lower payroll, and DD just didn't fit the profile.

Henry wanted Mookie traded. Dombo politely declined, smartly. Henry fired Dombo. End scene.

[mvp 78]

43 minutes ago, notin said:

If you look at his history, Dombrowski was fired in Detroit after his very successful run culminated in a mediocre team with ridiculous financial commitments.  I can see parallels in Boston.

I know there were rumors about his difficult personality, etc.  but let’s get real.  He didn’t suddenly morph into a difficult person in 2019. Whether difficult or not, when his team is winning, owners accept him.  But when the winning stops/slows down and the costs don’t, suddenly he’s not held in the same regard…

Some of the DET financial commitments were foisted on him by ownership. Hard to put that on DD. 

[notin]

36 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The 2019 team was almost identical to the 2018 team.  It's not like DD brought in a bunch of pricy guys in 2019.  They were already there.

And if the 2019 won 90-100 games and made the postseason, DD still gets fired?

[Duran Is The Man]

7 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Henry wanted Mookie traded. Dombo politely declined, smartly. Henry fired Dombo. End scene.

i wish we had kept Mookie and DD and traded Henry.

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Red Sox fans who don't care about budgets have seen their favorite players leave over and over since 2018. But it's hard not to read or hear about how much money those guys make, so it's logical that's where their perceptions of Henry comes from. And he refused to pay market value to his best homegrown player from this century. That's not a misperception.

They also remember when Bloom told fans that if we kept Mookie then we wouldn't have Garrett Richards.

Even they/we can see the idiocy behind the cost-cutting plan of paying too many Klubers instead of just keeping one Eovaldi or paying a Paxton or Giolito for two years when they only pitch one... or Sandoval when he pitches none.

I think most Sox fans look over the past 7 seasons and think "it would have been more fun to at least have had Mookie around for this." Giving up on HOF talent in the prime of their career is a very bad look that was near impossible to sell to the fanbase. I'd say the fanbase hasn't recovered from that one decision. 

[notin]

14 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Some of the DET financial commitments were foisted on him by ownership. Hard to put that on DD. 

But what about the drop in performance? His last team, the 2015 Tigers, won 74 games, 4 fewer than Cherington’s ladt place Red Sox team….

[Old Red]

17 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

The discussion was about posters who say JH does not spend enough, so if it was "casual fans" who no little about the budget, then they shouldn't be saying things about spending, if they know little about it.

If it's posters who do know about thew budget then they are not being genuine. Please try to keep up with the conversation. (Good luck with that!)

You’re ALWAYS on the wrong side of Memphis. If Fred said JH is cheap 1000 times you’d think it’s your obligation to say is not, is not, is not 1000 times back.

[notin]

13 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Henry wanted Mookie traded. Dombo politely declined, smartly. Henry fired Dombo. End scene.

And are you calling that a scene because it’s pure fiction?

Per NBC Boston and Tom Verducci, Dombrowski was exploring trades for Betts, including one with the Dodgers allegedly involving Will Smith.  That doesn’t sound like he declined.

But I am open to any and all sources saying otherwise…