Red Sox all alone with worst record again

[moonslav59]

36 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Im of the belief that its actually quite hard to ruin talent.  I think in most cases its fans trying to blame anyone else other than someone they invested in emotionally.  "HOW DARE YOU SAY MY MAN CRUSH IS A BUST! GRANTED HE WAS A TOP PROSPECT WHO IS NOW 29 WITH A .189 CAREER BA, BUT I BLAME.....THE MANAGER"

I do think mistakes can be made and players set back a little bit, but I agree.

[moonslav59]

19 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

It's not jerking around if the guy has never topped 120 innings before. He's going to need a break at some point. 

I'm not disagreeing, but they said that last season as he led the league in IP.

[Hitch]

13 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

For now, yes, but they saw it the other way, last year, when he was farther behind on the progress climb.

So a completely different scenario? Gotcha. 

[Hitch]

15 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Gotta hate how that destroyed his development time and career.

You're comparing apples to I don't know what the hell. Where was Crotchet in his development curve? And does the fact that the WS were winning like 40 games a year, meaning they can have him develop against MLB hitters with absolutely zero concerns about the the outcome of a game, mean nothing to you?

You need bullpen help - go and get it. (We've literally got two proven MLB pitchers back any time now by the way, so why you'd even look at Tolle boggles the mind). When your stud prospect has work to do on all his secondary pitchers, you do that work, not call him up to a bull pen to throw one pitch. 

I think this weird start has broken the mind of a few people.

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Hitch said:

So a completely different scenario? Gotcha. 

They called him up as a RP'er, last year. Yes, it was different, as he was even farther away on the progress ladder.

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Hitch said:

You're comparing apples to I don't know what the hell. Where was Crotchet in his development curve? And does the fact that the WS were winning like 40 games a year, meaning they can have him develop against MLB hitters with absolutely zero concerns about the the outcome of a game, mean nothing to you?

You need bullpen help - go and get it. (We've literally got two proven MLB pitchers back any time now by the way, so why you'd even look at Tolle boggles the mind). When your stud prospect has work to do on all his secondary pitchers, you do that work, not call him up to a bull pen to throw one pitch. 

I think this weird start has broken the mind of a few people.

When did I say it means nothing? I actually pointed out this exact downfall of the choice.

[notin]

18 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

He's already been called up, not sure what'd they'd be still waiting for. 

For starters, both sides have to agree on terms…

[notin]

18 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Yes, the Red Sox should start developing talent the way the White Sox do. When did that TJS come into play for Crochet? 

 The White Sox didnt develop Crochet.   They drafted him in June, 2020 and he was in MLB by that September…

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

 The White Sox didnt develop Crochet.   They drafted him in June, 2020 and he was in MLB by that September…

So development doesn't happen at the MLB level? Then why call up Tolle? His secondaries aren't ready yet! 

[notin]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

So development doesn't happen at the MLB level? Then why call up Tolle? His secondaries aren't ready yet! 

Then why was he added to the 40 man and called up last year?

[Hitch]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

When did I say it means nothing? I actually pointed out this exact downfall of the choice.

I refuse to believe you can have read my post and think my point has anything to do with this reply. 

[mvp 78]

25 minutes ago, notin said:

Then why was he added to the 40 man and called up last year?

Did the White Sox develop Crochet? Did the White Sox development (or lack thereof) lead to his TJS? 

[notin]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Did the White Sox develop Crochet? Did the White Sox development (or lack thereof) lead to his TJS? 

Neither of us can know if they were to blame for that. They did the same thing with Sale.  Was it their fault he needed TJS nine years later?

COVID was a bigger factor in Crochet’s lack of minor league development…

[Bellhorn04]

102 replies to this hot take thread, hilarious.

This place is still the best.

 

[notin]

8 hours ago, Hitch said:

You're comparing apples to I don't know what the hell. Where was Crotchet in his development curve? And does the fact that the WS were winning like 40 games a year, meaning they can have him develop against MLB hitters with absolutely zero concerns about the the outcome of a game, mean nothing to you?

You need bullpen help - go and get it. (We've literally got two proven MLB pitchers back any time now by the way, so why you'd even look at Tolle boggles the mind). When your stud prospect has work to do on all his secondary pitchers, you do that work, not call him up to a bull pen to throw one pitch. 

I think this weird start has broken the mind of a few people.

Crochet is a unique case.  He was drafted in June, 2020 and debuted for the White Sox in September, 2020.  In between those date, he did not play minor league ball because, well, there was no minor league ball in 2020. 
 

Did this hurt his development? No idea.  But he’s not a good example to compare to Tolle since it’s already too late for Tolle to skip the minors…

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Hitch said:

I refuse to believe you can have read my post and think my point has anything to do with this reply. 

I have said development of secondary pitches matters, and agree trying to improve at the MLB level is not ideal. You asked if learning at the MLB level means nothing to me.

I fully understood your post and point. I feel there is more to the choice than this one aspect.

If Tolle is better than someone else, even with these concerns, the choice is not so clear.

 

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, notin said:

Neither of us can know if they were to blame for that. They did the same thing with Sale.  Was it their fault he needed TJS nine years later?

COVID was a bigger factor in Crochet’s lack of minor league development…

Why? He was drafted AND debuted in 2020. If there was MiLB, would he have NOT debuted that year? 

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

102 replies to this hot take thread, hilarious.

This place is still the best.

Since my account is almost old enough to go to the store and bring me home a pack of Camel Wides, I think this place is more of a curse. 

[Hitch]

3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I have said development of secondary pitches matters, and agree trying to improve at the MLB level is not ideal. You asked if learning at the MLB level means nothing to me.

I fully understood your post and point. I feel there is more to the choice than this one aspect.

If Tolle is better than someone else, even with these concerns, the choice is not so clear.

 

You obviously didn't understand my point. It was that Crochet was able to develop in a pen that was not under pressure to deliver results because the CWS were not competing. Tolle would not have that luxury or space to develop while being in this pen. Something you seem to have given no thought to. And he very much has a lot of development to go.

Luckily this is all moot because they won't bring him up in that role. As they shouldn't. 

[drewski6]

14 minutes ago, Hitch said:

You obviously didn't understand my point. It was that Crochet was able to develop in a pen that was not under pressure to deliver results because the CWS were not competing. Tolle would not have that luxury or space to develop while being in this pen. Something you seem to have given no thought to. And he very much has a lot of development to go.

Luckily this is all moot because they won't bring him up in that role. As they shouldn't. 

When Crochet was the closer in CWS, he was the best one in MLB.  So, Im not really understanding this argument about being free to throw what he needs to work on.  Its not what happened. He was an awesome closer.  The whole notion that there isnt pressure, I cant get behind.  He now makes millions upon millions of dollars more than he would have , if he stunk.

Whether or not Tolle gets called up to pitch in relief this year will likely depend on 2026 variables, not looking way far into the future.  I actually think being in a ML pen is BETTER for Tolles development of secondaries than being in AAA.  He'd be around major leaguers and major league coaches and could potentially pick something up.  Like learn circle change or something FROM A MAJOR LEAGUER

And if he wants to test out a new sweeper or change or curve, he can ask his teammates to pick up a bat.  You dont have to be in AAA to learn new pitches or practice them.

Personally, I wouldnt call him to pitch in relief yet.  But Im not like dead set against it happening at some point.  And I do not think it would like stint him or set his development back or anything like that. I think playing in games is overrated for development.  You can work on your swing, pitching mechanics all that stuff outside of a game.  

[moonslav59]

57 minutes ago, Hitch said:

You obviously didn't understand my point. It was that Crochet was able to develop in a pen that was not under pressure to deliver results because the CWS were not competing. Tolle would not have that luxury or space to develop while being in this pen. Something you seem to have given no thought to. And he very much has a lot of development to go.

Luckily this is all moot because they won't bring him up in that role. As they shouldn't. 

I totally understood your point abut the difference between Tolle and Crochet.

I'm not sure why you have to say things like "you seem to have given not thought to" or that I couldn't have read your post, or I that something "means nothing" to me. People can understand fully and disagree.

I know Tolle still has work to do, and it would be better to do it in AAA than at the MLB level. How about you giving some thought to the idea that there might be other factors going into the decision, and just because you think this factor overrides all others, doesn't mean we fail to understand your point.

I don't like the idea of Tolle having to tinker with his secondary pitches in the bigs, but to me, if him tinkering is still better than someone else we are using, I'd consider pitching him anyway. Let him tinker and fail some. If he ends up failing less than Kelly has, then the team does better and might win a game or two more. That's the big team- not Woo.

I don't subscribe to the theory that this almost always ruins a pitcher or messes with his confidence. I don't discount the theory or "GIVE IT NO THOUGHT." I consider all the pluses and minuses of this choice vs those of the "other" choice(s.) and come to my opinion.

Stop acting like anyone who disagrees with you must not be able to understand you, because you have to be right, so any failure to agree implies stupidity or ignorance.

Your point has merit. I acknowledge that. I don't even disagree with it. I just think the big club's pen need is greater. Hell, I even suggested adding Anderson to the 40 and giving him a try a few days ago as another option. I'm not claiming Tolle is the only option worth trying out, but I thought we needed a move made to boost the pen. Tolle was one idea. It was a risky idea.

They called him up, last year and used him in the pen during a high stakes moment in the season, despite knowing he still needed to work on his secondaries. How about giving some thought to that? Does 2025 "mean nothing to you?" (See how that feels when put that way towards you? Kinda condescending, right?)

[Duran Is The Man]

11 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

102 replies to this hot take thread, hilarious.

This place is still the best.

 

and here we are 13 days after this thread was started and.....the Sox still have the worst record in baseball.

[Hitch]

10 hours ago, drewski6 said:

When Crochet was the closer in CWS, he was the best one in MLB.  So, Im not really understanding this argument about being free to throw what he needs to work on.  Its not what happened. He was an awesome closer.  The whole notion that there isnt pressure, I cant get behind.  He now makes millions upon millions of dollars more than he would have , if he stunk.

Whether or not Tolle gets called up to pitch in relief this year will likely depend on 2026 variables, not looking way far into the future.  I actually think being in a ML pen is BETTER for Tolles development of secondaries than being in AAA.  He'd be around major leaguers and major league coaches and could potentially pick something up.  Like learn circle change or something FROM A MAJOR LEAGUER

And if he wants to test out a new sweeper or change or curve, he can ask his teammates to pick up a bat.  You dont have to be in AAA to learn new pitches or practice them.

Personally, I wouldnt call him to pitch in relief yet.  But Im not like dead set against it happening at some point.  And I do not think it would like stint him or set his development back or anything like that. I think playing in games is overrated for development.  You can work on your swing, pitching mechanics all that stuff outside of a game.  

I don't believe Crochet was the closer the CWS.

And the point (that is continually being missed) is that he came into that bullpen with the freedom to develop against MLB pitching because they were not in a race. Tolle still needs much development and would not get the same luxury if promoted (which he won't be). 

Any other issues with it - take it up with the people thinking it was a good comparison. I thought it was a stupid one when I first read it. I think it's a stupid one now.

[Hitch]

9 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I totally understood your point abut the difference between Tolle and Crochet.

I'm not sure why you have to say things like "you seem to have given not thought to" or that I couldn't have read your post, or I that something "means nothing" to me. People can understand fully and disagree.

I know Tolle still has work to do, and it would be better to do it in AAA than at the MLB level. How about you giving some thought to the idea that there might be other factors going into the decision, and just because you think this factor overrides all others, doesn't mean we fail to understand your point.

I don't like the idea of Tolle having to tinker with his secondary pitches in the bigs, but to me, if him tinkering is still better than someone else we are using, I'd consider pitching him anyway. Let him tinker and fail some. If he ends up failing less than Kelly has, then the team does better and might win a game or two more. That's the big team- not Woo.

I don't subscribe to the theory that this almost always ruins a pitcher or messes with his confidence. I don't discount the theory or "GIVE IT NO THOUGHT." I consider all the pluses and minuses of this choice vs those of the "other" choice(s.) and come to my opinion.

Stop acting like anyone who disagrees with you must not be able to understand you, because you have to be right, so any failure to agree implies stupidity or ignorance.

Your point has merit. I acknowledge that. I don't even disagree with it. I just think the big club's pen need is greater. Hell, I even suggested adding Anderson to the 40 and giving him a try a few days ago as another option. I'm not claiming Tolle is the only option worth trying out, but I thought we needed a move made to boost the pen. Tolle was one idea. It was a risky idea.

They called him up, last year and used him in the pen during a high stakes moment in the season, despite knowing he still needed to work on his secondaries. How about giving some thought to that? Does 2025 "mean nothing to you?" (See how that feels when put that way towards you? Kinda condescending, right?)

Again, the comment was to show how useless a comparison to Crochet for Tolle was in this example, when there were vastly different elements at play for Crochet. You've used 10,000 words to miss it again. With the veracity, mass, and sometimes sarcastic nature in which you post, you can claim to think deeply about everything you decide to post if you want, but I simply don't believe you. 👍

Either way, I think the topic has run its course. 

[mvp 78]

14 hours ago, Hitch said:

You obviously didn't understand my point. It was that Crochet was able to develop in a pen that was not under pressure to deliver results because the CWS were not competing. Tolle would not have that luxury or space to develop while being in this pen. Something you seem to have given no thought to. And he very much has a lot of development to go.

Luckily this is all moot because they won't bring him up in that role. As they shouldn't. 

With the way this season is going, there may be no pressure by the time June comes around. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Crochet may have been spoiled during Covid, because no matter how good or bad he pitched, every cardboard fan still looked like they were cheering.

[drewski6]

4 hours ago, Hitch said:

I don't believe Crochet was the closer the CWS.

And the point (that is continually being missed) is that he came into that bullpen with the freedom to develop against MLB pitching because they were not in a race. Tolle still needs much development and would not get the same luxury if promoted (which he won't be). 

Any other issues with it - take it up with the people thinking it was a good comparison. I thought it was a stupid one when I first read it. I think it's a stupid one now.

I assure you, he was not pitching in major league games like they were AAA untethered to results.  If he has an ERA of 2.1 vs 4.1 and hes in arbitration the difference is 1 mil vs 5 mil and he wasnt rich at the time.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Well my summer is officially compromised.  This team sucks and they will never be any good this year and possibly beyond. I used to proudly wear my Red Sox gear in Maryland as the O's sucked. Not any more.

I'm so sick of these empty promises only to trot out a lineup that looks like this.  I was skeptical but hoped that with solid pitching and (supposedly) better defense they could spend the season squeaking out 3-2 wins in boring games that at least will be close and offer some drama. Now I see no hope for this team in 2026.

 

Bite me John Henry.  

[moonslav59]

5 hours ago, Hitch said:

Again, the comment was to show how useless a comparison to Crochet for Tolle was in this example, when there were vastly different elements at play for Crochet. You've used 10,000 words to miss it again. With the veracity, mass, and sometimes sarcastic nature in which you post, you can claim to think deeply about everything you decide to post if you want, but I simply don't believe you. 👍

Either way, I think the topic has run its course. 

I know the comp between Crochet and Tolle is apples to oranges. I agreed with that.

"Missing it" is obviously what you think anyone who disagrees with you is doing.

Yes, the topic is dead, as is your reasoning on this.

[Hitch]

3 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

With the way this season is going, there may be no pressure by the time June comes around. 

Ain't that the truth.