A Realistic View of the 2025 Red Sox: Part II

[mvp 78]

30 minutes ago, notin said:

Not even remotely true.  And seriously melodramatic.

I guess you just aren't a Ricky Gutierrez guy? 

[Nick]

1 hour ago, notin said:

Not even remotely true.  And seriously melodramatic.

I live in Chicago and see lots of Cubs games.  The Cubs have the worst (non-catcher) bench Ive ever seen.  Two light-hitting pinch runners (Brujan and Berti) who primarily play infield and a 40yo corner infielder (Justin Turner) whose best days are in the rear view mirror.  Also no outfielders.

And yet the Cubs are one half game behind the best record in the NL and 1.5 games behind the best record in MLB.  Why doesn’t their bench drag them down, as you say it should?  And their weird thing is - their pitching really isn’t that good, either. But their bench is atrocious.

Wong is having a bad year.  But if you’re blaming him for any part of the Sox record, you’re putting far too much on him…

Ever think maybe the Cubs would be 5 games up on best teams if they did something about their deficiency?

I would do something about a player who is 0-28 with runners in scoring position. 

And if you think that has nothing do with our record is simply asinine. Good luck when we finish 1 game out of the playoffs.

Aren't we the team of superior analytics?

Hell I'm just a little high school coach. I break down every minute of game films. Looking for that 2% edge.

I have a staff of 5 and the Sox won't even bother to look for alternatives?

"Oh Well".... I bet the Rays don't take that casual attitude. $5M means everything to them. We piss that away like its nothing. 

[cp176]

2 hours ago, Nick said:

How many more games could we have won just with couple of hits with runners in scoring position?

To simply dismiss him as a oh well he's just a back up catcher is awful. You would never manage anything for me. You're only good as your 26th man.

How come many of us have the time to think about Wong but no one in the Sox organization don't as you are implying? That makes no sense.

If you think that I’m the guy dismissing him as “just a backup catcher”, you are wrong.  I like Connor Wong and do not think that dreaming about what another backup catcher might have done, makes any sense at all.  A problem there does not exist regardless of what everybody’s metrics analytics and statistics might suggest.   He is a hard worker and fits in just fine with this team., 

[cp176]

2 hours ago, notin said:

Not even remotely true.  And seriously melodramatic.

I live in Chicago and see lots of Cubs games.  The Cubs have the worst (non-catcher) bench Ive ever seen.  Two light-hitting pinch runners (Brujan and Berti) who primarily play infield and a 40yo corner infielder (Justin Turner) whose best days are in the rear view mirror.  Also no outfielders.

And yet the Cubs are one half game behind the best record in the NL and 1.5 games behind the best record in MLB.  Why doesn’t their bench drag them down, as you say it should?  And their weird thing is - their pitching really isn’t that good, either. But their bench is atrocious.

Wong is having a bad year.  But if you’re blaming him for any part of the Sox record, you’re putting far too much on him…

Very very true.  

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

3 hours ago, notin said:

Not even remotely true.  And seriously melodramatic.

I live in Chicago and see lots of Cubs games.  The Cubs have the worst (non-catcher) bench Ive ever seen.  Two light-hitting pinch runners (Brujan and Berti) who primarily play infield and a 40yo corner infielder (Justin Turner) whose best days are in the rear view mirror.  Also no outfielders.

And yet the Cubs are one half game behind the best record in the NL and 1.5 games behind the best record in MLB.  Why doesn’t their bench drag them down, as you say it should?  And their weird thing is - their pitching really isn’t that good, either. But their bench is atrocious.

Wong is having a bad year.  But if you’re blaming him for any part of the Sox record, you’re putting far too much on him…

The Sox were losing a lot of 1 run games earlier in the season. When 1 player goes 0-28 with runners in scoring positon it's not unrealistic to think we could have won a few of those games.  And then there is the defense which is impossible to quantify but in close games it made a difference.  

[notin]

3 hours ago, Nick said:

Ever think maybe the Cubs would be 5 games up on best teams if they did something about their deficiency?

 

That’s not what you said.  Every team should get better if they improve their worst position.  How much better varies, but I doubt the awful Cubs’ bench has cost their team 6-7 games.  

But you said “you’re only as good as your 26th man.”  Like the last player is a link in a chain.  The Cubs last 3 players combine for -0.1 bWAR, and it’s only that high because Beet started for a month while Matt Shaw was demoted.

Wong has not cost their team Red Sox 5 or 6 games.  He is having an awful season, but guess what? Most backup catchers are one-dimensional glove types with minimal hitting skills.  If the Sox had Martin Maldonado, do you think they’d have 5 more wins? Hint: they wouldn’t.  Maybe 1-2 more max.  Maybe…

[Maxbialystock]

45 minutes ago, notin said:

That’s not what you said.  Every team should get better if they improve their worst position.  How much better varies, but I doubt the awful Cubs’ bench has cost their team 6-7 games.  

But you said “you’re only as good as your 26th man.”  Like the last player is a link in a chain.  The Cubs last 3 players combine for -0.1 bWAR, and it’s only that high because Beet started for a month while Matt Shaw was demoted.

Wong has not cost their team Red Sox 5 or 6 games.  He is having an awful season, but guess what? Most backup catchers are one-dimensional glove types with minimal hitting skills.  If the Sox had Martin Maldonado, do you think they’d have 5 more wins? Hint: they wouldn’t.  Maybe 1-2 more max.  Maybe…

 

4 hours ago, Nick said:

Ever think maybe the Cubs would be 5 games up on best teams if they did something about their deficiency?

I would do something about a player who is 0-28 with runners in scoring position. 

And if you think that has nothing do with our record is simply asinine. Good luck when we finish 1 game out of the playoffs.

Aren't we the team of superior analytics?

Hell I'm just a little high school coach. I break down every minute of game films. Looking for that 2% edge.

I have a staff of 5 and the Sox won't even bother to look for alternatives?

"Oh Well".... I bet the Rays don't take that casual attitude. $5M means everything to them. We piss that away like its nothing. 

Why are you assuming the Sox have not analyzed the backup catcher situation?  Of course they have.  And so far their view seems to be that Wong's pluses outweigh his minuses.  

[Nick]

6 hours ago, cp176 said:

If you think that I’m the guy dismissing him as “just a backup catcher”, you are wrong.  I like Connor Wong and do not think that dreaming about what another backup catcher might have done, makes any sense at all.  A problem there does not exist regardless of what everybody’s metrics analytics and statistics might suggest.   He is a hard worker and fits in just fine with this team., 

So a hard worker makes him entitle to be on the roster?

Do you hear yourself?

We tell our kids working hard is mandatory. That doesn't mean they get to play.

There you have it. Wong is a hard worker. A really really hard worker. No one, I mean no one works harder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Larry Cook]

19 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Houck is set to be activated, soon. Who gets demoted? Fitts (as we trade for a solid #2?) Alcala, Murphy, Bernardino? (Trade Hicks?)

I'm pulling for Sandoval's return, but who knows?

You know you are starting to build depth when these decisions are murky!!!  

[dgalehouse]

Not even one mention of the All Star Game. Things sure have changed. 

[Kimmi]

On 7/10/2025 at 12:41 PM, cp176 said:

Lots of talk here about who to trade, positions of weakness and how to fill them.  I’m not sure that I would trade anybody for anybody right now.  Personally I don’t any problem at all with the way first base is being covered and I certainly don’t see a backup catcher as a need at all.  Wong is fine.  Pitching I guess so.  Everybody could use pitching.  I like both Duran and Abreu in Red Sox uniforms as well next year.  I also am anxious to see Dobbins again hopefully soon.  I’m beginning to like this team and hope we don’t get fleeced in any deals that might be made.  Some times the best trade is no trade at all.  Cora is making good money to figure out how to get these players playing time.

I really like this post, cp.

[Maxbialystock]

12 hours ago, Yaz Fan Since 67 said:

I had argued for Wong all offseason.  I figured a catcher who hit .280 with good speed for a catcher worked for me.  But then I was presented with the facts. Wong is not a good defensive catcher, he is actually terrible.  I could live with that at .280, now he can't hit and remains a poor defensive catcher.  He really may be the worst catcher in MLB and whenever he is in the lineup the Red Sox are at a disadvantage before the first pitch is thrown.  

He has a plus DWAR this year because he worked very hard on his posture, framing, and defensive skills in the past offseason.   I pretty sure the Sox could have traded for a backup catcher at almost any point this season and chose not to.  

 

[moonslav59]

12 hours ago, notin said:

Not even remotely true.  And seriously melodramatic.

I live in Chicago and see lots of Cubs games.  The Cubs have the worst (non-catcher) bench Ive ever seen.  Two light-hitting pinch runners (Brujan and Berti) who primarily play infield and a 40yo corner infielder (Justin Turner) whose best days are in the rear view mirror.  Also no outfielders.

And yet the Cubs are one half game behind the best record in the NL and 1.5 games behind the best record in MLB.  Why doesn’t their bench drag them down, as you say it should?  And their weird thing is - their pitching really isn’t that good, either. But their bench is atrocious.

Wong is having a bad year.  But if you’re blaming him for any part of the Sox record, you’re putting far too much on him…

What's Wong with Nick?

[moonslav59]

6 hours ago, Nick said:

So a hard worker makes him entitle to be on the roster?

Do you hear yourself?

We tell our kids working hard is mandatory. That doesn't mean they get to play.

There you have it. Wong is a hard worker. A really really hard worker. No one, I mean no one works harder.

Wong's D seemed to get better over 2024.

He's one of the least played back-up catchers in MLB, so it's hard to find any sort of groove. Even Casas has more PAs than Connor.  I'm not making excuses. His O has been worse than horrific.

Some say he was lucky, last year. Out of 46 MLB catchers with 280+ PAs, Wong ranks 18th at .723. (Narvaez is 6th at .789)

He's having a bad year on O. Even Sandy Leon was never this bad, but Wong has just 98 PAs spread out over 3.5 months.

[moonslav59]

6 hours ago, Larry Cook said:

You know you are starting to build depth when these decisions are murky!!!  

Indeed. Our roster depth is looking very nice, and when you count all the guys on the IL and the farm, WOW!

7 players on the 60 Day IL: Sandoval, Crawford, Slaten, Casas, Winckowski, Hendriks & Burdi

4 players on shorter ILs or rehabs: Dobbins (to 60) Houck, Guerrero & Kelly

Maybe one or two of these guys might not bounce someone from the 26, when they get healthy, 7 or 8 probably would.

I gotta think, if healthy, Sandoval, Crawford, Dobbins, Slaten, Houck & Casas would, for sure.

Casas for Toro

Sandoval for Fitts

Crawford for Buehler (trade/DFA?)

Dobbins for Murphy

Slaten for Alcala

Houck for Bernardino

That would really make our 26 look tough, while improving our AAA depth, a lot, too.

[cp176]

11 hours ago, Kimmi said:

I really like this post, cp.

Thanks Kimmi.  

[Bellhorn04]

10 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

He has a plus DWAR this year because he worked very hard on his posture, framing, and defensive skills in the past offseason.   I pretty sure the Sox could have traded for a backup catcher at almost any point this season and chose not to.  

 

Yeah, like I said I'm going to trust Breslow on this one.  If he thought it was an urgent problem he'd address it.  I have to think Wong is doing stuff in the defensive area that they're satisfied with. 

[mvp 78]

15 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

 

Why are you assuming the Sox have not analyzed the backup catcher situation?  Of course they have.  And so far their view seems to be that Wong's pluses outweigh his minuses.  

Why do we have to assume that their analysis is correct? 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Why do we have to assume that their analysis is correct? 

We don't have to do anything, we all have free will.  Personally I'm very comfortable assuming that Breslow and Cora know more than I do about the catching situation.

 

[jad]

38 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We don't have to do anything, we all have free will.  Personally I'm very comfortable assuming that Breslow and Cora know more than I do about the catching situation.

 

As is the case with most Yale folks, the concern is not what they know, but rather what they do.

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, jad said:

As is the case with most Yale folks, the concern is not what they know, but rather what they do.

You know Yale is a problem when the people of New Haven can't even spell pizza correctly! 

[notin]

13 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

You know Yale is a problem when the people of New Haven can't even spell pizza correctly! 

Dont talk to a Connecticutian (is that what they are called?) about pizza!! They swear they have the best pizza in the country, but they have toppings like mashed potatoes and corn!

[notin]

21 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

I guess you just aren't a Ricky Gutierrez guy? 

Of course I am.  You must be confusing me with Cesar Crespo…

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We don't have to do anything, we all have free will.  Personally I'm very comfortable assuming that Breslow and Cora know more than I do about the catching situation.

 

Exactly.

I have my doubts any backup catcher replacement would be a significant upgrade.  Do we want another Blake Sabol type? 
 

Someone stat pointed out Wong knows the staff (and just as important, the staff knows him).  That has to count for something…

[Bellhorn04]

Plus a few hits might start falling in for Wong.  Guys have been known to break out of slumps.

Most of us were ready to launch Story into Jupiter not that long ago.

[mvp 78]

17 minutes ago, notin said:

Dont talk to a Connecticutian (is that what they are called?) about pizza!! They swear they have the best pizza in the country, but they have toppings like mashed potatoes and corn!

A New Haven style pizza place opened up down here a few years ago. The pizza was pretty good. It was always relatively busy, but nothing crazy. The front of house staff was just unable to deal with take out orders because they never ran a restaurant so they became a dine in only spot. I don't think they did so well with that model, because they've revamped again and tried to become an upscale date night place for boomers with a different menu. Leave the tri-state BS up North please. 

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Plus a few hits might start falling in for Wong.  Guys have been known to break out of slumps.

Most of us were ready to launch Story into Jupiter not that long ago.

Story has a longer history of production. Wong's '24 production was largely based on luck per TS reporting earlier this season. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

Story has a longer history of production. Wong's '24 production was largely based on luck per TS reporting earlier this season. 

Maybe his luck will improve again.

Maybe Breslow and Cora didn't find the Danny Jansen pickup last year all that beneficial. 
 

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Why do we have to assume that their analysis is correct? 

We don't.  But we can be pretty sure they've given it a lot of thought.  Input might have been provided by the pitching coach, the pitchers, the manager, et al. 

Talksoxers love to complain about the Sox defense, and the first line of any team's defense is--guess what?--half the freaking team in the pitching staff.  And job one for any catcher should be making those pitchers effective.   

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

We don't.  But we can be pretty sure they've given it a lot of thought.  Input might have been provided by the pitching coach, the pitchers, the manager, et al. 

Talksoxers love to complain about the Sox defense, and the first line of any team's defense is--guess what?--half the freaking team in the pitching staff.  And job one for any catcher should be making those pitchers effective.   

And yet this is a team that had BLAKE SABOL as the third string catcher. We saw him play for the Boston Red Sox this season. He was the worst defensive catcher I have seen in a very long time. Worse than Alfaro. It made me feel bad for ever being upset at Josh Bard. That's how bad Sabol was at catcher. If Sabol had to catch Wakefield, it would have been the first MLB game to ever end by mercy rule.