Bloom fired

[jad]

You can’t argue Mookie was a generational talent and a Hall of Famer and then also argue leaving him unextended for 5 years was acceptable. You’re doing just that…

 

I am now seriously doubting your ability to read a simple English sentence. Where did I argue for not giving him an extension?

[notin]

I am now seriously doubting your ability to read a simple English sentence. Where did I argue for not giving him an extension?

 

Your argument Henry/Bloom decided not to pay him.

 

That decision was made long before Bloom came on board during his extension talks with Dombrowski (which Mookie now denies ever happened).

 

The whole Betts situation should have been wrapped up long before Bloom was hired. And that even includes the decision to trade him. Even the Nationals knew that in their similar situation with Juan Soto…

[Maxbialystock]

There is no way Mookie was 'unaffordable', nor was Bogaerts, JT, nor anyone else. It's just that JH/Bloom did not want to pay them, thinking, apparently, they could be replaced with, say, .180 hitters for a mere $200 million.

 

The 2018 Sox payroll was the highest in MLB. So was the 2019 payroll. The 2018 team was the best Sox team ever with 108 regular season wins and an 11-3 record in the ALDS, ALCS, and WS postseason.

 

The 2019 team finished 84-78 despite retaining almost all of the talent from the splendid 2018 team.

 

The current horrible, terrible, disgusting Sox team with the 15th biggest payroll in MLB would be just 6 games back of the 2019 team.

 

The Mets have the highest MLB payroll in 2023 and have a losing record. The Yankees have the second highest payroll and are one game ahead of the horrible, terrible, disgusting Sox. The Padres have the 3d highest payroll and a losing record. The Angels have the 7th highest payroll and a losing record.

 

On the other hand, far and away the two best teams in the AL, the Orioles and the Rays, have 28th and 27th highest payrolls in MLB. And 2 weeks ago the Rays lost their best freaking player, shortstop Wander Franco. He was everything we hoped Story would be and more. But without him the Rays are 8-2 in their last 10 games.

 

We do not know what Betts would have cost if JH had told his guys, "I don't care what the Dodgers offer him, we will go higher." We can, however, be absolutely sure Mookie was going wherever the most money was.

 

As for Bogey, he too went for the bigger bucks, and his new team, despite the massive payroll, has a worse record than the Sox.

[moonslav59]

But yet he couldn’t field a WINNING team, and get into the postseason, which is what I’ve been saying, Cora said, and Sam said, and which was, and is most important.

 

No doubt. That is why he is gone.

 

His foundation will go on, and hopefully the next guy does not squander it.

 

(Yes, I know, much is based on speculative values, but I'd rather have a foundation based on high speculative value than lower ones.)

 

He should have been able to win while rebuilding, especially this year. He had a big winter spending budget, and although he had to replace some big producers like Nate, JD, Bogey and Vaz, those big-named players did not have fantastic numbers in 2022.

 

He swung and hit on a few gets, but he missed on too many and focused his efforts on the pen and offense not the rotation and defense, and it bit him and the team in the ass.

 

It was his "make or break" moment, and it broke.

[Old Red]

No doubt. That is why he is gone.

 

His foundation will go on, and hopefully the next guy does not squander it.

 

(Yes, I know, much is based on speculative values, but I'd rather have a foundation based on high speculative value than lower ones.)

 

He should have been able to win while rebuilding, especially this year. He had a big winter spending budget, and although he had to replace some big producers like Nate, JD, Bogey and Vaz, those big-named players did not have fantastic numbers in 2022.

 

He swung and hit on a few gets, but he missed on too many and focused his efforts on the pen and offense not the rotation and defense, and it bit him and the team in the ass.

 

It was his "make or break" moment, and it broke.

 

Depending on how many of the Casas, Raf Man, Abreu, Bello, Mayer, Anthony, and Teel to name some work out, or are traded for someone who does is now what the Red Sox have to work with, but it would be a lot better if these players were added to Mookie, Raffy, and Bogey instead of adding to just Raffy. I blame DD for not doing a better job of not locking up Mookie, and Bogey sooner.

[sk7326]

Depending on how many of the Casas, Raf Man, Abreu, Bello, Mayer, Anthony, and Teel to name some work out, or are traded for someone who does is now what the Red Sox have to work with, but it would be a lot better if these players were added to Mookie, Raffy, and Bogey instead of adding to just Raffy. I blame DD for not doing a better job of not locking up Mookie, and Bogey sooner.

 

There is not a ton of evidence that management was willing to do what it took - and that's not a DD problem.

[Maxbialystock]

No doubt. That is why he is gone.

 

His foundation will go on, and hopefully the next guy does not squander it.

 

(Yes, I know, much is based on speculative values, but I'd rather have a foundation based on high speculative value than lower ones.)

 

He should have been able to win while rebuilding, especially this year. He had a big winter spending budget, and although he had to replace some big producers like Nate, JD, Bogey and Vaz, those big-named players did not have fantastic numbers in 2022.

 

He swung and hit on a few gets, but he missed on too many and focused his efforts on the pen and offense not the rotation and defense, and it bit him and the team in the ass.

 

It was his "make or break" moment, and it broke.

 

I completely agree CBO's are hired to be fired and that JH has never hesitated to do either.

 

That said, there does seem to be a sea change in MLB which you and others are ignoring--

 

Mets, Yankees, and Padres have the three highest payrolls in MLB and absolutely no hope of making it to the postseason.

 

Bottom feeders Rays and Orioles, 27th and 28th highest payrolls in MLB, have the two best records in MLB despite both being in easily the toughest division in MLB.

 

Throughout the John Henry era--at least until he hired Chaim Bloom--John Henry has been willing to pay top dollar (or close to it) for talent. This year's payroll is 15th, probably the lowest payroll ranked for the Sox in 40 years.

[Old Red]

There is not a ton of evidence that management was willing to do what it took - and that's not a DD problem.

 

Not when it got to the point with Mookie, but Bogey might have been different at the time if they would have offered him more money when he signed that 6 year contract with no opt out. I don’t like opt out contracts, and it just holds teams hostage like it did when JD was here.

[Maxbialystock]

There is not a ton of evidence that management was willing to do what it took - and that's not a DD problem.

 

Right. JH was being cheap. We know that because in 2018 and 2019 the Sox had the highest payroll in MLB. JH should have been happy to spring for a $300M or, better still, a $400M payroll.

[Old Red]

I completely agree CBO's are hired to be fired and that JH has never hesitated to do either.

 

That said, there does seem to be a sea change in MLB which you and others are ignoring--

 

Mets, Yankees, and Padres have the three highest payrolls in MLB and absolutely no hope of making it to the postseason.

 

Bottom feeders Rays and Orioles, 27th and 28th highest payrolls in MLB, have the two best records in MLB despite both being in easily the toughest division in MLB.

 

Throughout the John Henry era--at least until he hired Chaim Bloom--John Henry has been willing to pay top dollar (or close to it) for talent. This year's payroll is 15th, probably the lowest payroll ranked for the Sox in 40 years.

 

The O’s were real bad for a very long time though.

[a700hitter]

based is fact.

But it is a misperception that those facts could not exist without finishing last 3 times. That is why it is a rationalization. Edited September 16, 2023 by a700hitter

[notin]

There is not a ton of evidence that management was willing to do what it took - and that's not a DD problem.

 

Management let him spend a quarter of a billion dollars on payroll twice. That he did that without locking up Betts is completely on him…

[Old Red]

They need me.

 

My plan is simple. Extend Verdugo. Trade for Juan Soto. (Yorke plus Yoshida is a massive overpay on BTV).

 

Then tackle pitching. 1SP free agent (Gray?). 1RP free agent ( No names yet). Explore small market teams for arb-eligible pitchers via trade.

 

And Matt Chapman. Almost forgot. Unless negotiations get all Nimmo-y…

 

How much are you going to pay Soto after you trade for him? Chapman?

[notin]

How much are you going to pay Soto after you trade for him? Chapman?

 

 

Well his last year is arb, so figures need to be exchanged. The extension will be for ALOT, but Boston needs a marketable star with a Mookie gone.

 

Chapman will just have to settle for less or I use my Plan B pivot of Gold Glover Isiah Kiner-Falefa. If nothing else then at least Sox pitchers benefit a little by not facing him…

[moonslav59]

But it is a misperception that those facts could not exist without finishing last 3 times. That is why it is a rationalization.

 

Nobody is claiming that. They are saying it is one reason why we lost.

 

Are you saying, we'd still have lost had Bloom had another $30+M to spend every winter?

 

Are you sure about that?

 

No doubt, we may have still lost, but it still is a valid point to make, even if a "rationalization."

[moonslav59]

Management let him spend a quarter of a billion dollars on payroll twice. That he did that without locking up Betts is completely on him…

 

What's the most Bloom spent?

 

I think it was like $20M in 2020.

$30M in 2021.

Maybe $40M AAV in 2022, including his first somewhat large and long deal for Story.

 

This past winter plus the Devers signing was Bloom's biggest splurge. If you go back to March 2022 and count the Devers extension that starts, next year, you can come close to one of DD's splurges, but that's 2+ seasons to come up with a comp. (2022-2024>)

[moonslav59]

Well his last year is arb, so figures need to be exchanged. The extension will be for ALOT, but Boston needs a marketable star with a Mookie gone.

 

Chapman will just have to settle for less or I use my Plan B pivot of Gold Glover Isiah Kiner-Falefa. If nothing else then at least Sox pitchers benefit a little by not facing him…

 

I can't see the fixation on Offense, when our top 4 priorities are pitching.

 

You don't even mention pitching in passing.

[Bellhorn04]

Management let him spend a quarter of a billion dollars on payroll twice. That he did that without locking up Betts is completely on him…

 

How can you blame DD for Betts when we have no idea how much Henry authorized to offer Betts?

 

It's not like Henry hasn't made lowball offers to other players. Meanwhile, DD likes big offers.

 

The only reasonable conclusion is that Henry did not want to offer what Betts was willing to accept, not even after DD was gone. According to Betts, the final offer came when Bloom had taken over, and it was so low that his team just said no thanks, see ya later.

[dgalehouse]

Bloom said himself that he expected to sign Mookie. Blaming Dombrowski for not " locking him up " sooner is a very lame excuse.

[moonslav59]

Bloom said himself that he expected to sign Mookie. Blaming Dombrowski for not " locking him up " sooner is a very lame excuse.

 

So, no blame at all to DD, who had 4 years to do it.

 

Sounds like a lame excuse defending DD.

 

Bloom had a few months and no budget.

 

He spent less in the 2019-2020 winter that just 1 year of Betts on an arb deal.

 

Not an excuse- just the facts.

[moonslav59]

How can you blame DD for Betts when we have no idea how much Henry authorized to offer Betts?

 

It's not like Henry hasn't made lowball offers to other players. Meanwhile, DD likes big offers.

 

The only reasonable conclusion is that Henry did not want to offer what Betts was willing to accept, not even after DD was gone. According to Betts, the final offer came when Bloom had taken over, and it was so low that his team just said no thanks, see ya later.

 

Good point, but look what DD spent on Sale, Bogey and Nate compared to what Bloom spent for 2020.

 

I'm guessing DD could have convinced JH to pay Betts and not Sale + Nate, plus the cost of Betts was probably less had we tried after 2016, 2017 or even 2018.

 

[sk7326]

Right. JH was being cheap. We know that because in 2018 and 2019 the Sox had the highest payroll in MLB. JH should have been happy to spring for a $300M or, better still, a $400M payroll.

 

1. When you have a future Hall of Famer entering his prime, to not keep him is cheap

2. Bogaerts is a little different and the decision to let him go is less terrible than the plan to replace him.

3. The Red Sox should never be having the 12th highest payroll in the league - not with their revenue, not with what they ask out of their fans $$-wise.

4. The team extended a couple of guys after 2018. Great. What they did not do was push to optimize this core - not the way the Dodgers (another Tampa Bay inspired front office) do.

5. Now, when Bloom took over, the minor league system was not at the position the Dodgers is - where there are constant supplies of Verdugo-level players that have value in trades for premium players so they CAN be in on almost any player they want. But in terms of assets, nothing is stopping the Red Sox from being that sort of behemoth.

6. The Red Sox are one of the big kids on the block - and they need to act like that.

[sk7326]

Good point, but look what DD spent on Sale, Bogey and Nate compared to what Bloom spent for 2020.

 

I'm guessing DD could have convinced JH to pay Betts and not Sale + Nate, plus the cost of Betts was probably less had we tried after 2016, 2017 or even 2018.

 

 

For someone like JH that should have been a both/and not an either/or.

[notin]

How can you blame DD for Betts when we have no idea how much Henry authorized to offer Betts?

 

It's not like Henry hasn't made lowball offers to other players. Meanwhile, DD likes big offers.

 

The only reasonable conclusion is that Henry did not want to offer what Betts was willing to accept, not even after DD was gone. According to Betts, the final offer came when Bloom had taken over, and it was so low that his team just said no thanks, see ya later.

 

If DD was not allowed to sign Betts, why did he hold on to him up to the final year of Betts’ deal?

 

You yourself have said the decision to trade Betts was made before Bloom and that Bloom was just the hatchet man (your exact woods). I agree, but that also means if they really wanted to get something for a Mookie, the time to move him was clearly the 2019 trading deadline, when they were clearly out of it and DD didn’t exactly try to turn the team around by only trading for Andrew Cashner. That half-ass indecisive trade deadline was completely Bloom-esque…

[mvp 78]

They need me.

 

My plan is simple. Extend Verdugo. Trade for Juan Soto. (Yorke plus Yoshida is a massive overpay on BTV).

 

Then tackle pitching. 1SP free agent (Gray?). 1RP free agent ( No names yet). Explore small market teams for arb-eligible pitchers via trade.

 

And Matt Chapman. Almost forgot. Unless negotiations get all Nimmo-y…

 

Matt Chapman needs a restraining order on you.

[notin]

Matt Chapman needs a restraining order on you.

 

No surprises. Joey Gallo put one on me last year, too…

[StephenCurry30]

The worst GM in Red Sox history is finally gone but now before he left a turd on the team at the trade deadline

 

he could’ve traded Justin Turner for Edward Cabrera. he declined

 

He could’ve traded James Paxton for multiple prospects, he declined

 

He could’ve traded Duvall for multiple prospects.

 

Did he at least buy us some pitching for a playoff run?

 

No he stuck his thumb up his own ass

[a700hitter]

We will have to see what his legacy will be with the players he drafted into the organization. Cherries best young player signed was Devers, but Ben did win a Championship.

[StephenCurry30]

Going to need some support for that one there, Slugger…

 

 

[notin]

 

 

It doesn’t say who turned those down…