Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[Duran Is The Man]

I am going to make the assumption that you do not know Verdugo is only 4 months older than Duran. (It’s ok to not know that; I didn’t until I looked it up.)

 

But keeping that in mind, why would the Sox trade the far more-talented player who will have much less trade appeal (due to salary and only having one year of control left) and hang on to the cheaper, fringey player who has never been able to hang on in MLB until this year?

 

I think Duran has potential to be a very exciting offensive player. I have doubts about his limited defensive development and think he is a bottom tier CF (which someone has to be) and probably best left out of right field altogether.

 

It makes no sense to me to say “the Sox need to act like a large market team”, and then dump Verdugo for the lesser, cheaper player. That’s a small market move.

 

Extend Verdugo. Trade Duran. A small market will give up an arbitration-eligible (re: getting pricey) starting pitcher for a package built around him.

 

Or is all this because Verdugo missed two games for coach suspension and is therefore a “clubhouse cancer”? Don’t overreact to that…

 

i had no idea they were so close in age. i like Dugo and have absolutely nothing against him, including whatever real or perceived "clubhouse cancer" rumor that is going around. but the fact is, he just doesn't do anything for me. his numbers are steady yet, to me, IDK...unimpressive. as you know, he's eligible after next year, Duran two years after that. Duran's fWAR is slightly higher than Dugo's (2.3 to 2.2)in less games and his OPS+ is higher (120-103). i just see more potential with Duran. maybe i'm wrong. i'm just saying, i'd keep Jarren over Alex. with that said, i wouldn't get pissed if they traded Duran for quality SP.

 

i never said "the Sox need to act like a large market team".

[moonslav59]

A big bat is needed to protect Devers

 

2 top of the rotation innings eating Starting pitchers are needed.

 

Also, something that would cost nothing would be some fielding practice and emphasis on base running. The fielding throughout baseball sucks. It wouldn’t take much to get to the middle of the pack from the bottom of the steaming pile of dogs hit. Base running doesn’t require much other than drilling in some knowledge to prevent the season long stupidity that we witnessed.

 

If we get that big bat, we won't need Turner and Duvall, plus all 3 would cost too much and take away from spending on pitching.

[moonslav59]

i had no idea they were so close in age. i like Dugo and have absolutely nothing against him, including whatever real or perceived "clubhouse cancer" rumor that is going around. but the fact is, he just doesn't do anything for me. his numbers are steady yet, to me, IDK...unimpressive. as you know, he's eligible after next year, Duran two years after that. Duran's fWAR is slightly higher than Dugo's (2.3 to 2.2)in less games and his OPS+ is higher (120-103). i just see more potential with Duran. maybe i'm wrong. i'm just saying, i'd keep Jarren over Alex. with that said, i wouldn't get pissed if they traded Duran for quality SP.

 

Duran is pre-arb, next year. He has 4 years of control to 1 for Dugo.

[notin]

i had no idea they were so close in age. i like Dugo and have absolutely nothing against him, including whatever real or perceived "clubhouse cancer" rumor that is going around. but the fact is, he just doesn't do anything for me. his numbers are steady yet, to me, IDK...unimpressive. as you know, he's eligible after next year, Duran two years after that. Duran's fWAR is slightly higher than Dugo's (2.3 to 2.2)in less games and his OPS+ is higher (120-103). i just see more potential with Duran. maybe i'm wrong. i'm just saying, i'd keep Jarren over Alex. with that said, i wouldn't get pissed if they traded Duran for quality SP.

 

i never said "the Sox need to act like a large market team".

 

It’s a summary of a bunch of people.

 

Frankly I was surprised to notice they were only 4 months apart. Verdugo has less control but is simply a much more talented ballplayer.

 

I have seen far too much commentary calling him a cancer, likely related to his two one game suspensions. I think that’sa fast label that could (and likely is) very wrong.

 

To me the bottom line is Duran is best limited to LF, which is the easiest OF position to fill. Extending Verdugo makes the most sense.

[Duran Is The Man]

It’s a summary of a bunch of people.

 

Frankly I was surprised to notice they were only 4 months apart. Verdugo has less control but is simply a much more talented ballplayer.

 

I have seen far too much commentary calling him a cancer, likely related to his two one game suspensions. I think that’sa fast label that could (and likely is) very wrong.

 

To me the bottom line is Duran is best limited to LF, which is the easiest OF position to fill. Extending Verdugo makes the most sense.

 

i don't believe the "cancer" rumors at all. Dugo is an emotional guy. i like that.

 

and i don't have a problem extending Dugo, if the price was right.

 

yes, LF is the best place for Duran.

[Duran Is The Man]

Duran is pre-arb, next year. He has 4 years of control to 1 for Dugo.

 

four years. even better.

[a700hitter]

If we get that big bat, we won't need Turner and Duvall, plus all 3 would cost too much and take away from spending on pitching.

Yes, someone would have to be moved in a trade if they get a big bat.

Edited September 18, 2023 by a700hitter

[Nick]

Duran is pre-arb, next year. He has 4 years of control to 1 for Dugo.

 

Duran has 5 years to Verdugo's 1.

[oldtimer]

i don't believe the "cancer" rumors at all. Dugo is an emotional guy. i like that.

 

and i don't have a problem extending Dugo, if the price was right.

 

yes, LF is the best place for Duran.

 

Duran is younger, faster, less expensive and a better fielder than Yoshida. If we are doing comparisons, perhaps we should trade Yoshida and keep Duran. They both have 4 years of control. We wolld clear more money for pitching if Yoshida's contract would be eaten by another team.

[Bellhorn04]

Duran has 5 years to Verdugo's 1.

 

You are correct, sir.

[Hugh2]

Sox need a couple big moves that could easily propel them into being a WS contender. Yes, this assumes some forward progress and growth by guys already on the roster, but that may be reasonable with the likes of Casas, Duran, Yoshida, Rafeala etc etc.

 

They need two big-time starting pitchers, or at least 1 ace and a good mid-rotation starter.

 

They need a big RHB.

 

They can get 2/3 of these easily in free agency if they are willing to spend. With the firing of Bloom we can be optimistic here but it's certainly uncertain if that's the direction they take.

 

The big RHB is not as clear. There's nothing in FA, and one could argue if Rafeala can hit, Story is finally healthy and they resign Duval that they may be ok there. But they can't bank on that happening. Still, if all they did was resign Duval but then went out and got two legit pitchers to add to the rotation E.G. SNell + Yama I would be happy and very optimistic for the 2024 season.

[Bellhorn04]

The elephant in the room is that the top starting pitchers are going to have plenty of bidders. Big contracts and big risk. Does Henry want to do another 180 on his "philosophy" now?

[moonslav59]

Yes, someone would have to be moved in a trade if they get a big bat.

 

Turner and Duvall are FAs. after this year.

 

No moves needed.

[moonslav59]

The elephant in the room is that the top starting pitchers are going to have plenty of bidders. Big contracts and big risk. Does Henry want to do another 180 on his "philosophy" now?

 

That's why I think a trade is the way we get one.

 

Then, we'll sign sign someone like Gray, who won't get 6 or 7 years.

 

My hopes are we outbid everyone for the youngest guy on the market: Yamamoto and then sign someone like Gray.

 

Trade for a number 4, so we don't need to give up much: maybe Dugo & Drohan.

 

Bring Duvall back and sign a legit LH'd RP...

 

Yamamoto

Gray

Bello

Trade

Crawford or Pivetta

 

Jansen

Martin

Houck

Whitlock

Crawford or Pivetta

Schreiber

Winckowski

LH'd RP FA

 

C Wong & McGuire

1B Casas

2B Urias & Reyes

SS Story

3B Devers

LF Duran & Refsnyder

CF Rafaela & Duvall

RF Duvall & Abreu

DH Yoshida

 

Since Rafaela can back up SS and 2B, Urais SS and 3B and Reyes SS and 3B, I think our IF depth is okay, although who backs up 1B? Duvall? Devers?

[Hugh2]

The elephant in the room is that the top starting pitchers are going to have plenty of bidders. Big contracts and big risk. Does Henry want to do another 180 on his "philosophy" now?

 

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Bloom was fired. He would likely never be able to outbid the other GM's for those pitchers.

[mvp 78]

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Bloom was fired. He would likely never be able to outbid the other GM's for those pitchers.

 

Or the Sox didn't trust him enough to get the moves over the finish line.

[Hugh2]

Or the Sox didn't trust him enough to get the moves over the finish line.

 

Isn't that kind of saying the same thing?

[notin]

The elephant in the room is that the top starting pitchers are going to have plenty of bidders. Big contracts and big risk. Does Henry want to do another 180 on his "philosophy" now?

 

That is why you avoid those pitchers.

 

The Sox aren’t getting Yamamoto, Nola is overrated, Ohtani won’t be pitching and Snell will be super pricey.

 

I think Sonny Gray should be on the radar, but I bet he’s on a lot of radars. One name I will throw out there (and can’t believe I’m doing so) is Alex Cobb, who does turn 36 next year but has been surprisingly good at ages 33, 34 and 35…

[notin]

That's why I think a trade is the way we get one.

 

Then, we'll sign sign someone like Gray, who won't get 6 or 7 years.

 

My hopes are we outbid everyone for the youngest guy on the market: Yamamoto and then sign someone like Gray.

 

Trade for a number 4, so we don't need to give up much: maybe Dugo & Drohan.

 

Bring Duvall back and sign a legit LH'd RP...

 

Yamamoto

Gray

Bello

Trade

Crawford or Pivetta

 

Jansen

Martin

Houck

Whitlock

Crawford or Pivetta

Schreiber

Winckowski

LH'd RP FA

 

C Wong & McGuire

1B Casas

2B Urias & Reyes

SS Story

3B Devers

LF Duran & Refsnyder

CF Rafaela & Duvall

RF Duvall & Abreu

DH Yoshida

 

Since Rafaela can back up SS and 2B, Urais SS and 3B and Reyes SS and 3B, I think our IF depth is okay, although who backs up 1B? Duvall? Devers?

 

I think a lot of people forget Refsnyder came up as an infielder. He wasn’t very good at it and might not have played infield for a while, but he could probably handle 1b for an inning or two.

[Hugh2]

That is why you avoid those pitchers.

 

The Sox aren’t getting Yamamoto, Nola is overrated, Ohtani won’t be pitching and Snell will be super pricey.

 

I think Sonny Gray should be on the radar, but I bet he’s on a lot of radars. One name I will throw out there (and can’t believe I’m doing so) is Alex Cobb, who does turn 36 next year but has been surprisingly good at ages 33, 34 and 35…

 

I disagree, more and more and more teams are spending money. We have slipped in spending not because we are spending less but because everyone else is spending more.

 

When you take into consideration the amount of money flowing into baseball, the Red Sox, and how much it pays to win, Henry can justify spending $260 million if he wanted to. I think that last 4 years is conditioning us to accept less.

 

Look at the Sox WS years, we spent a lot more than everyone or mostly everyone else that year.

 

We need pitching, there's plenty of it available and we need 2-3 guys. We aren't trading away the farm to build a rotation, and there's plenty of risk in middling guys as well.

[mvp 78]

Isn't that kind of saying the same thing?

 

Not really. Bloom maybe could have done well this offseason. The ownership group just didn't want to risk it considering what they saw out of him the past two seasons.

 

There's a difference between "trust" and "ability."

[notin]

I disagree, more and more and more teams are spending money. We have slipped in spending not because we are spending less but because everyone else is spending more.

 

When you take into consideration the amount of money flowing into baseball, the Red Sox, and how much it pays to win, Henry can justify spending $260 million if he wanted to. I think that last 4 years is conditioning us to accept less.

 

Look at the Sox WS years, we spent a lot more than everyone or mostly everyone else that year.

 

We need pitching, there's plenty of it available and we need 2-3 guys. We aren't trading away the farm to build a rotation, and there's plenty of risk in middling guys as well.

 

Long and large contracts cause more problems when they solve. It’s not about any sort of justification for spending. Sure Henry could spend, but that didn’t mean he should spend.

 

The biggest fallacy I keep hearing is “Sox need to act like a large market,” Which usually means wanton spending. So large market teams are stupid and don’t learn from their mistakes??!? That’s the goal?

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe, just maybe, that's why Bloom was fired. He would likely never be able to outbid the other GM's for those pitchers.

 

But then we have to also consider why Dombrowski was fired.

[notin]

But then we have to also consider why Dombrowski was fired.

 

Too much hair gel…

[Bellhorn04]

Too much hair gel…

 

What was the Sale Price on that gel?

[mvp 78]

But then we have to also consider why Dombrowski was fired.

 

He didn't get along with others and signed some bad contracts while emptying the farm.

[Old Red]

He didn't get along with others and signed some bad contracts while emptying the farm.

 

There goes that emptying the farm thing again. Seems like the Sox have some guys playing now that didn’t get emptied.

[sk7326]

He didn't get along with others and signed some bad contracts while emptying the farm.

 

The thing that made the firing icky was that "emptying the farm" sort of came on the label when they hired Dombrowski in the first place. They didn't hire him to "not" do that.

[notin]

What was the Sale Price on that gel?

 

$362million…

[notin]

There goes that emptying the farm thing again. Seems like the Sox have some guys playing now that didn’t get emptied.

 

None of them were there at the time…