The Red Sox starting rotation -- long term

[Hugh2]

I still like the idea of putting Houck, Whitlock, Winckowski, Crawford and Schreiber in the bullpen (with Martin and Jansen). But it’s not remarkably practical…

 

I actually don't hate putting one of Whitlock or Houck back out there, but gambling on their youth and the possibility of taking a step forward in the starting role is very enticing. This dilemma is negated if Pivetta/Kluber actually looks good out of the pen. I'd settle for one of them looking good.

[Bellhorn04]

What did they do with Kluber BTW?

[notin]

I actually don't hate putting one of Whitlock or Houck back out there, but gambling on their youth and the possibility of taking a step forward in the starting role is very enticing. This dilemma is negated if Pivetta/Kluber actually looks good out of the pen. I'd settle for one of them looking good.

 

In my little mind, the Sox rotation could be Sale, Luzardo, Paxton, Whitlock, Bello. Push Houck back to the pen with Jansen, Martin, Schreiber, Crawford, Winckowski, Rodriguez and Bernardino.

 

Of course that depends on everyone getting healthy and Miami accepting Ceddane Rafaela (plus?) for Jesus Luzardo (which Miami should)…

[moonslav59]

I made a bold and stupid comment on the gameday thread about 5 innings pitched being a "quality start" which by definition it is not. My line of thought yesterday was how the game of baseball has really changed over even just the past 10 years. Relievers are going longer and Starters are more and more throwing fewer innings. It's actually amazing to think how much more starters make than relievers in free agency given this closing gap (market inefficiency???).

 

My point was, in today's game, I don't think the Sox starters only going 5 innings or so is what is hurting this team. As a matter of fact, the best team in all of baseball with one of the better pitching staffs the Tampa Bay Rays does not do any better. Their starting pitchers only average 4.65 innings per game, and the Boston staff is averaging just over 5.05 innings pitched. For some perspective, I decided to look at a few other teams with great pitching staff as well.

 

Houston 5.5 IP per game

Minn. 5.6 IP per game

Texas 5.75 IP per game

ATL 5.25 IP per game

TB 4.65 IP Per game

Boston 5.05 IP Per game

 

I figured it fair to look up some of the other awful pitching staffs as well.

 

Oak 4.70 IP per game

COL 4.65 IP per game

Cinn 4.84 IP per game

 

Sox seem to be middle of the pack, but there is some relationship (which is obviously predictable here) that teams with better-starting rotations will have starters that throw more innings. What I want to know is, how much of that benefits the team in today's game, or how much of that is just a function of how well the rotation performs? probably a bit of both. But despite that relationship, you see teams like Tampa Bay that have starters who do not go many innings but they still have great pitching year in and year out. So how strong is it?. The Sox seem to average between 1/3 and 2/3 of an inning less per game than the best pitching staffs in all of baseball. Is needing those extra 1 - 2 outs a game the difference between one of the best pitching staffs and one of the worse? I think it might just all come down to the fact that the starting pitching overall has not been good. They've shown glimmers of hope, but they have yet to hit the ground with all cylinders firing at once.

 

It will be interesting to see how guys like Kluber and Pivetta do in the bullpen because the Sox need guys in there that can give you multiple-inning relief outings. That guy has so much more value in today's game. Earlier in the year I would have figured those guys to have been some combination of Houck/Whitlock/Paxton/Crawford but now you have to take Houck/Whitlock out of the left side of the equation and add in Pivetta/Kluber/Wink to the right side.

 

Sox are obviously hoarding depth at the MLB level because they don't have a lot of pitching depth in the minors, not at the AAA level at least. The point is, they can't wait too long on guys like Kluber and Pivetta out of the pen, especially if you're going to need your pen 3 1/3 to 4 innings most nights. The Tampas model works because they have that depth at the MLB level year after year and they perform.

 

Good stuff.

 

To me, with the 13 man staff, I think taxing the pen is not such a big deal, anymore.

[notin]

Good stuff.

 

To me, with the 13 man staff, I think taxing the pen is not such a big deal, anymore.

 

That depends on how many mop up arms you carry…

[Hugh2]

That depends on how many mop up arms you carry…

 

That's a role that needs to go away now that bullpens are being used more. The mop-up guy isn't the 13th guy in your pen you throw out to save the bullpen anymore. You need guys who can go 2-3 innings a game more often now and having a guy who can come in and take you from the 4th to the 7th or 8th is huge. If we had that we would have preserved the lead last night. If we had that we would have HELD Cincinnati and fought back for a win the night prior.

 

To me, Mop-up guy was the multi-inning arm of the past who was an afterthought in a bullpen, now they have a lot more value to teams in an age where starters are increasingly going lesser into games.

[moonslav59]

That depends on how many mop up arms you carry…

 

Having even 1 more short guy, that's 50-55 IP a year. That 1/3 IP per game.

 

Plus, we now have 4 long men (Wink, Craw, Klub & Piv.)

[notin]

Having even 1 more short guy, that's 50-55 IP a year. That 1/3 IP per game.

 

Plus, we now have 4 long men (Wink, Craw, Klub & Piv.)

 

Winckowski and Crawford shouldn’t be counted for 2-3 IP too often..,

[notin]

That's a role that needs to go away now that bullpens are being used more. The mop-up guy isn't the 13th guy in your pen you throw out to save the bullpen anymore. You need guys who can go 2-3 innings a game more often now and having a guy who can come in and take you from the 4th to the 7th or 8th is huge. If we had that we would have preserved the lead last night. If we had that we would have HELD Cincinnati and fought back for a win the night prior.

 

To me, Mop-up guy was the multi-inning arm of the past who was an afterthought in a bullpen, now they have a lot more value to teams in an age where starters are increasingly going lesser into games.

 

 

But hey, when you’re down (or up) 10-1, who else do you use?

[notin]

That's a role that needs to go away now that bullpens are being used more. The mop-up guy isn't the 13th guy in your pen you throw out to save the bullpen anymore. You need guys who can go 2-3 innings a game more often now and having a guy who can come in and take you from the 4th to the 7th or 8th is huge. If we had that we would have preserved the lead last night. If we had that we would have HELD Cincinnati and fought back for a win the night prior.

 

To me, Mop-up guy was the multi-inning arm of the past who was an afterthought in a bullpen, now they have a lot more value to teams in an age where starters are increasingly going lesser into games.

 

 

The Sox lost the last two games that were heavily influenced by poor defense. And yet the Minor League Defensive Player of the Year sits down in Portland, seemingly wasting his 40 man roster spot.

 

Let everyone else do the hitting…

[moonslav59]

Winckowski and Crawford shouldn’t be counted for 2-3 IP too often..,

 

Maybe, depending on how many days off between.

 

Kluber and Pivetta can do "mop up" or maybe even some semi-meaningful innings here and there.

[Old Red]

That depends on how many mop up arms you carry…

 

True, and you have a 8 man BP, but the workload doesn’t get all spread over 8 equally. Martin, and Jansen are basically 8th, and 9th innings guys. Of course so far this season the Red Sox have had a lot of comings, and goings already, but the more you pitch some of these guys the more they can become exposed. Kut Man, and Wink have been pretty good for the most part, so far this season, but can they hold up for a full season?

[moonslav59]

Current IP x 3

 

165 Sale

155 Houck

150 Pivetta (not a SP'er anymore)

125 Kluber (not a SP'er anymore)

120 Bello

100 Wink

90 Craw

60 Whit (should get more)

60 Bleier

60 Paxton (more?)

50 Schreiber

45 Jansen

45 Martin

 

What RP'er is over-taxed.

 

[Old Red]

Current IP x 3

 

165 Sale

155 Houck

150 Pivetta (not a SP'er anymore)

125 Kluber (not a SP'er anymore)

120 Bello

100 Wink

90 Craw

60 Whit (should get more)

60 Bleier

60 Paxton (more?)

50 Schreiber

45 Jansen

45 Martin

 

What RP'er is over-taxed.

 

You are only 1/3 through the season. At the rate the starting rotation are going with the innings pitched by the AS break might be a different story. I repeat only 1/3 through the season.

[mvp 78]

What did they do with Kluber BTW?

 

Paternity list.

[mvp 78]

The Sox lost the last two games that were heavily influenced by poor defense. And yet the Minor League Defensive Player of the Year sits down in Portland, seemingly wasting his 40 man roster spot.

 

Let everyone else do the hitting…

 

Putting Rafaela in CF fixes the IF defense how?

[notin]

Current IP x 3

 

165 Sale

155 Houck

150 Pivetta (not a SP'er anymore)

125 Kluber (not a SP'er anymore)

120 Bello

100 Wink

90 Craw

60 Whit (should get more)

60 Bleier

60 Paxton (more?)

50 Schreiber

45 Jansen

45 Martin

 

What RP'er is over-taxed.

 

 

Winckowski and Crawford. Neither handled smaller workloads all that well last year. And that was s as starting pitchers…

[notin]

Putting Rafaela in CF fixes the IF defense how?

 

[sigh]

 

Put him at shortstop. His glove plays there, too…

[Hugh2]

The Sox lost the last two games that were heavily influenced by poor defense. And yet the Minor League Defensive Player of the Year sits down in Portland, seemingly wasting his 40 man roster spot.

 

Let everyone else do the hitting…

 

Absolutely, the defense is a problem. As a matter of fact, it might be their #1 problem, at the very least it's competing with the pitching. Solving the defense makes the pitching better too, but that's hard to do mid season.

[Old Red]

Paternity list.

 

Looks like Kluber is Starting in one of the Tampa games on Sat.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Absolutely, the defense is a problem. As a matter of fact, it might be their #1 problem, at the very least it's competing with the pitching. Solving the defense makes the pitching better too, but that's hard to do mid season.

 

That's why skeptics and realists posing as posters warned about it before the season began, during the offseason when GMs are supposed to be assembling.

 

It was obvious to most that the deep but mediocre pitch-to-contact staff was going to need support from authentic fielders at key positions -- and not just versatile athletes that board game and fantasy players can move all over make-believe diamonds.

 

Two quotes from Alex Cora in today's Boston Globe...

"We're not a good defensive team."

"We have a pitching staff that doesn't have swing and miss stuff."

 

... tell you all you need to know about making the playoffs.

[moonslav59]

That's why skeptics and realists posing as posters warned about it before the season began, during the offseason when GMs are supposed to be assembling.

 

It was obvious to most that the deep but mediocre pitch-to-contact staff was going to need support from authentic fielders at key positions -- and not just versatile athletes that board game and fantasy players can move all over make-believe diamonds.

 

Two quotes from Alex Cora in today's Boston Globe...

"We're not a good defensive team."

"We have a pitching staff that doesn't have swing and miss stuff."

 

... tell you all you need to know about making the playoffs.

 

There is hope the D will improve, when Story returns, but will it be enough or too late?

[Dipre]

That's why skeptics and realists posing as posters warned about it before the season began, during the offseason when GMs are supposed to be assembling.

 

It was obvious to most that the deep but mediocre pitch-to-contact staff was going to need support from authentic fielders at key positions -- and not just versatile athletes that board game and fantasy players can move all over make-believe diamonds.

 

Two quotes from Alex Cora in today's Boston Globe...

"We're not a good defensive team."

"We have a pitching staff that doesn't have swing and miss stuff."

 

... tell you all you need to know about making the playoffs.

 

I nominate you to spearhead this FO instead of Chaim Bloom.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I nominate you to spearhead this FO instead of Chaim Bloom.

 

I'm not smart enough to put my billionaire owner's money into a shortstop with an artificial brace implanted in his throwing elbow. Imagine the foresight recruiting a cyborg to play the most important non-battery position on the field!

 

And it's too late for the rest of the majors; Cora said it again last night: Story is his shortstop... when he's uninjured.

[Dipre]

I'm not smart enough to put my billionaire owner's money into a shortstop with an artificial brace implanted in his throwing elbow. Imagine the foresight recruiting a cyborg to play the most important non-battery position on the field!

 

And it's too late for the rest of the majors; Cora said it again last night: Story is his shortstop... when he's uninjured.

 

Very self aware, and not self aware at the same time. Kudos.

[Bellhorn04]

Two quotes from Alex Cora in today's Boston Globe...

"We're not a good defensive team."

"We have a pitching staff that doesn't have swing and miss stuff."

 

... tell you all you need to know about making the playoffs.

 

Nice job by the front office, huh?

[Dipre]

Wasn't the point of the offseason to build a pitching staff that didn't put on a ton of baserunners for free? I mean, they're 9th in BB/9 and 17th in K/9. They succeeded in what they set out to do, but if you exchange K% for a better BB%, your team better be able to catch the baseball.

[Hugh2]

The closest thing this defense has to a silver bullet is Story coming back healthy this year and playing plus defense. Is this possible? absolutely, he's been a plus hitter and a plus defender most of his career. How likely is this? I have no idea.

 

But he makes your defense better, he puts Kike back to the super utility role where he is much better on defense in CF/2nd and you add a RH bat to your lineup. Shoring up the defense also helps the pitching and your lineup is more balanced.

[Bellhorn04]

Wasn't the point of the offseason to build a pitching staff that didn't put on a ton of baserunners for free? I mean, they're 9th in BB/9 and 17th in K/9. They succeeded in what they set out to do, but if you exchange K% for a better BB%, your team better be able to catch the baseball.

 

Good luck to anyone who can figure out exactly what Bloom's strategy for run prevention was.

[Dipre]

That's a basket I'd rather not put all of my eggs in, however.