The Red Sox starting rotation -- long term

[Dipre]

Hold on a second, this needs critique.

 

Grooms was no longer a prospect, he was a bust. He’s 24, in AAA rocking a 8.29 ERA.

 

Song. Unprecedented situation, and a total dick move by DD possibly messing up the kids career. Also, he ain’t the same guy. He touched 99 with the Sox, he’s sitting at 90 now. He’s not the same guy.

 

Ward - I’ll give you this one. He should have been protected. But he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire either with his 7.12 ERA, walking over 7 batters per 9.

 

None of those guys are burning us.

 

You're trying to respond logically to a non-logical post.

[notin]

Hold on a second, this needs critique.

 

Grooms was no longer a prospect, he was a bust. He’s 24, in AAA rocking a 8.29 ERA.

 

Song. Unprecedented situation, and a total dick move by DD possibly messing up the kids career. Also, he ain’t the same guy. He touched 99 with the Sox, he’s sitting at 90 now. He’s not the same guy.

 

Ward - I’ll give you this one. He should have been protected. But he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire either with his 7.12 ERA, walking over 7 batters per 9.

 

None of those guys are burning us.

 

I repeatedly- and yes I mean repeatedly- ripped Bloom for keeping Ort over Ward

 

But then there’s this

 

Ort - 6.26ERA 5.90FIP 2.67 K/BB

Ward - 7.12ERA 6.95FIP 1.08K/BB

 

Granted, Ort is 5 years older. But Ward is already 26. Not like he’s some 22yo kid whose still growing…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I repeatedly- and yes I mean repeatedly- ripped Bloom for keeping Ort over Ward

 

But then there’s this

 

Ort - 6.26ERA 5.90FIP 2.67 K/BB

Ward - 7.12ERA 6.95FIP 1.08K/BB

 

Granted, Ort is 5 years older. But Ward is already 26. Not like he’s some 22yo kid whose still growing…

 

I was all-in absolutely with you ripping Bloom for losing Ward while protecting other flotsam and jetsam. The halfway stats show it's no big deal now -- but if Bloom had instead protected Ward, are there any non-relative Red Sox fans on the planet who could have envisioned the Washington Nationals using that precious first pick in the Rule V to jump on Ort?

[notin]

I was all-in absolutely with you ripping Bloom for losing Ward while protecting other flotsam and jetsam. The halfway stats show it's no big deal now -- but if Bloom had instead protected Ward, are there any non-relative Red Sox fans on the planet who could have envisioned the Washington Nationals using that precious first pick in the Rule V to jump on Ort?

 

 

You do realize that’s essentially how we got him, right?

 

They didn’t have to use the first overall pick. Washington could have grabbed, say, Ryan Noda. And then taken Ort at #2

[mvp 78]

I was all-in absolutely with you ripping Bloom for losing Ward while protecting other flotsam and jetsam. The halfway stats show it's no big deal now -- but if Bloom had instead protected Ward, are there any non-relative Red Sox fans on the planet who could have envisioned the Washington Nationals using that precious first pick in the Rule V to jump on Ort?

 

They also could have dealt Ward in the offseason since he clearly had a lot of value. Enough to be taken 1st overall in the draft. It was just a waste to do what they did with him.

[moonslav59]

Where would Ward be ranked in our system, right now?

 

He's had a good season with just over 50 IP and has done better in AA than A+, this year.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Red Sox reportedly one of eight MLB teams with scouts in attendance watching recent start in Japan by ace pitcher Yamamoto, age 24.

 

Yoshida's ex-teammate has pretty good stats this year -- even if the two-time MVP is doing it in a league some equate to Triple A: 1.66 ERA, 101 strikeouts and just 12 walks through 92.1 innings...

[Bellhorn04]

Red Sox reportedly one of eight MLB teams with scouts in attendance watching recent start in Japan by ace pitcher Yamamoto, age 24.

 

Yoshida's ex-teammate has pretty good stats this year -- even if the two-time MVP is doing it in a league some equate to Triple A: 1.66 ERA, 101 strikeouts and just 12 walks through 92.1 innings...

 

Red Sox have had the following Japanese pitchers I can think of:

 

Nomo

Saito

Dice-K

Okajima

Uehara

Sawamura

[illinoisredsox]

Red Sox have had the following Japanese pitchers I can think of:

 

Nomo

Saito

Dice-K

Okajima

Uehara

Sawamura

 

You forgot Junichi Tazawa, who was pretty good against everyone except the Blue Jays. I used to think the Sox would have been better off leaving him south of the border when they went to Toronto. That team owned him.

[Bellhorn04]

You forgot Junichi Tazawa, who was pretty good against everyone except the Blue Jays. I used to think the Sox would have been better off leaving him south of the border when they went to Toronto. That team owned him.

 

Right. I had a feeling I was missing one.

[moonslav59]

Right. I had a feeling I was missing one.

 

We forgot Tomo Ohka, too.

 

Leaders in fWAR only with the Sox:

7.8 Dice-K

6.1 Uehara

4.0 Tazawa

3.0 Nomo

2.9 Okajima

1.4 Ohko

0.3 Saito

-0.2 Sawamura

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by moonslav59

[notin]

Red Sox have had the following Japanese pitchers I can think of:

 

Nomo

Saito

Dice-K

Okajima

Uehara

Sawamura

 

Tomo Ohka!

[mvp 78]

According to the Denver Post, the Colorado Rockies are moving the former Boston Red Sox starting pitcher to a relief role after a rough run this season. Seabold has gone 1-7 with a 7.18 ERA this season in 20 games, including 13 starts. Seabold’s ERA in games he started was 7.63.

[Hugh2]

Sox have two young pitchers flying up their rankings. This is pure conjecture, but the way both Wilkeman Gonzalez and Luis Perales are throwing they might start squeezing into peoples top 100 lists.

 

Wilkeman went 6 innings today striking out 10 and giving up 0 hits.

 

Recently promoted to Portland Gonzalez is sporting a 4.44 era on the year but with 124 is in only 75 innings.

 

Could Bello just be the beginning of an improved Sox system of developing pitchers? We shall see.

[moonslav59]

Sox have two young pitchers flying up their rankings. This is pure conjecture, but the way both Wilkeman Gonzalez and Luis Perales are throwing they might start squeezing into peoples top 100 lists.

 

Wilkeman went 6 innings today striking out 10 and giving up 0 hits.

 

Recently promoted to Portland Gonzalez is sporting a 4.44 era on the year but with 124 is in only 75 innings.

 

Could Bello just be the beginning of an improved Sox system of developing pitchers? We shall see.

 

I hope you are right.

 

I'm watching E R-C, G Gambrell and Paez, too.

 

Maybe Mata comes around.

[Hugh2]

I hope you are right.

 

I'm watching E R-C, G Gambrell and Paez, too.

 

Maybe Mata comes around.

 

I’m not sure those guys have high ceilings but that’s ok. Less talented players can still reach their ceiling or close to it and be serviceable major leaguers, and sometimes even carve out a spot trusted in the bullpen. We have a few of those on the big club this year.

 

ERC is still very young so, perhaps he has some upside as well

[moonslav59]

I’m not sure those guys have high ceilings but that’s ok. Less talented players can still reach their ceiling or close to it and be serviceable major leaguers, and sometimes even carve out a spot trusted in the bullpen. We have a few of those on the big club this year.

 

ERC is still very young so, perhaps he has some upside as well

 

Pitchers can also jump ahead by developing another pitch or gaining velo or increased spin rates.

 

Drohan might not be a good example, but almost overnight he improved his stuff and skyrocketed in the rankings.

[Dojji]

Yes, I remember back in 06 a complete nobody was dragged onto the scene by all the injuries, named Kason Gabbard. Literally I remember posting saying who TF is this guy in the forum I was on at the time. As it turns out he was a 23 year old Lefty with average control but a good change and a sinker that got ground ball outs. Debuted on my birthday against the Mariners, and pitched well, but he couldn't beat Ichiro, which in fairness, nobody could. IIIRC he went 5 2/3 with 3ER in a loss, so for a debut performance, from a "scrub" rookie, he got my attention.

 

Nobody had him on the radar but he quickly established himself in the rotation that year and the next, as a reliable guy who could get you 5+ innings at a time when that was desperately needed. Spun some gems for the Sox down the stretch in 07 and raised his stock to the point that he was the main asset in the Gagne trade. Which is another story since Eric Gagne was an abject disaster, but definitely suggests that the kid raised his value in the league's eyes since he was considered a AAAA nobody before that happened and managed to make himself a desired commodity.

 

Unfortunately it ended just as quickly as it began. the Rangers managed to wreck the guy's arm the next year and that was that. But you're right, every now and again these guys show up, like Gabbard, or like Bernardino, and I'm always there for the underrated guy

Edited July 24, 2023 by Dojji

[mvp 78]

Sox have two young pitchers flying up their rankings. This is pure conjecture, but the way both Wilkeman Gonzalez and Luis Perales are throwing they might start squeezing into peoples top 100 lists.

 

Wilkeman went 6 innings today striking out 10 and giving up 0 hits.

 

Recently promoted to Portland Gonzalez is sporting a 4.44 era on the year but with 124 is in only 75 innings.

 

Could Bello just be the beginning of an improved Sox system of developing pitchers? We shall see.

 

Wikelman had a 1.44 WHIP in High A. He really wasn't pitching all that great this season. One game isn't getting him into the top 100.

 

Perales is close to the top 100. Hard to say how close as some evaluators have said he may be a reliever. He also threw less than 40 professional innings prior to this year and will already have to be protected from the Rule 5 draft this offseason.

[mvp 78]

How did TEX wreck Gabbard's arm exactly? He only pitched 12 games? Threw over 100 pitches in a game only once.

[Hugh2]

Wikelman had a 1.44 WHIP in High A. He really wasn't pitching all that great this season. One game isn't getting him into the top 100.

 

Perales is close to the top 100. Hard to say how close as some evaluators have said he may be a reliever. He also threw less than 40 professional innings prior to this year and will already have to be protected from the Rule 5 draft this offseason.

 

I don't think scouts are looking at those stats as much nowadays, it's all about the underlying metrics, exit velo, swing and miss% spin rate etc etc. His high whip is more of a function of walks, not giving up hard hits.

 

Perales is closer, but these guys are ranked #7 #9 in the Sox system, a system where 6 of those top 9 are on someones prospect list. Wilkeman may not be that far away, saying a guy is top 100 or close to top 100 are two different things. Perales likely gets there first, and has more of a chance of doing that. But aside from walks, GOnzalez has been great. A young arm struggling with control isn't exactly the most uncommon thing either.

 

Perales I think has a chance to break onto some lists this offseason if he finishes the year on trajectory, Wilkeman may need to continue this into next year and maybe get on some mid seasons.

 

It could go the other way too, they could fall off a cliff.

[sk7326]

The thing is that some of the pitchers which had potential but serious questions have made some actual strides.

 

Heck, Murphy couldn't throw strikes at all at the minor league level and he has somehow flashed some solid control in The Show.

Edited July 24, 2023 by sk7326

[Hugh2]

Just learned this, Wilkeman is 2nd in all of minor league baseball in K's.

 

He has an impressive 14.88/9IP K rate this season and 11.7/9IP for his career. Here are some other Sox pitchers of recent and old career minors K rate and their double A rate

Wilkeman 11.7/9 - 14.88/9

Lester 8.3/9 - 9.7/9

Bello 10.8/9 - 12/9 (Bello was also a year older than Wikelman here

Pedro 9.5/9 - 9.3/9

 

 

The dud misses bats, if his control improves, he's a weapon.

[Dojji]

How did TEX wreck Gabbard's arm exactly? He only pitched 12 games? Threw over 100 pitches in a game only once.

 

He was actually in Fenway when he got hurt. I remember because I was interested in the guy because he debuted on my birthday. Fell off the mound on a pitch in the middle of a start against us and blew out his shoulder or elbow, don't remember which. Never managed a decent outing after that. His command went to hell after that.

[mvp 78]

He was actually in Fenway when he got hurt. I remember because I was interested in the guy because he debuted on my birthday. Fell off the mound on a pitch in the middle of a start against us and blew out his shoulder or elbow, don't remember which. Never managed a decent outing after that. His command went to hell after that.

 

How is that TEX’s fault tho?

[notin]

How is that TEX’s fault tho?

 

Gabbard had a tattoo on his left arm that read “Best If Used By Apr 16 2008.”

 

The Rangers ignored this…

[Dojji]

How is that TEX’s fault tho?

 

A pitcher like Gabbard is dependent on his infield defense. if his defense isn't good he's gonna have to throw a lot more pitches to get out of the situations. This is true of a lot of sinkerball pitchers. The Texas infield defense was IIRC horrific that year.

[notin]

A pitcher like Gabbard is dependent on his infield defense. if his defense isn't good he's gonna have to throw a lot more pitches to get out of the situations. This is true of a lot of sinkerball pitchers. The Texas infield defense was IIRC horrific that year.

 

 

But that was the year Ian Kinsler won his only Gold Glove…

[notin]

A pitcher like Gabbard is dependent on his infield defense. if his defense isn't good he's gonna have to throw a lot more pitches to get out of the situations. This is true of a lot of sinkerball pitchers. The Texas infield defense was IIRC horrific that year.

 

It’s silly to blame a team for ruining a guy’s career by putting an inadequate defense behind him. Even if it only had one Gold Glover.

 

Texas also never had Gabbard throw more than 107 pitches in any start. Gabbard simply got hurt through no fault of his defense (like most pitchers do) and was never able to recover fully. Add this to the fact that he was a borderline talent to begin with, and it spells can and often does end a career.

 

It happens. That doesn’t make out Texas’ fault…