Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[mvp 78]

Memo to mvp: Nothing that is posted on here has any effect on anything.

 

Are you saying that Game Thread mojo is a lie?!?!?!?!?

[moonslav59]

Are you saying that Game Thread mojo is a lie?!?!?!?!?

 

God, I hope so.

[Randy Red Sox]

not a good argument given that there are 8 other positions on the field but if you are ok with Bloom bringing in the next -Kluber, Hill, Richards, Wacha, Paxton, and any others i have forgotten then so be it.

6 out of 30! 80% of 1st round picks were hitters! But Bloom is doing something wrong?

[moonslav59]

not a good argument given that there are 8 other positions on the field but if you are ok with Bloom bringing in the next -Kluber, Hill, Richards, Wacha, Paxton, and any others i have forgotten then so be it.

 

Why are you acting like there is just 2 choices?

[Randy Red Sox]

sorry not sure what you mean? Poster basically said that 24 other teams drafted positional players which is 4x the number who drafted SP. I merely say that there are 8x the number of positions other than P so his argument is not really sound

Why are you acting like there is just 2 choices?

[Randy Red Sox]

BTW--good thing we didn't trade for Marcus Stroman eh?

Why are you acting like there is just 2 choices?

[moonslav59]

sorry not sure what you mean? Poster basically said that 24 other teams drafted positional players which is 4x the number who drafted SP. I merely say that there are 8x the number of positions other than P so his argument is not really sound

 

Drafting pitchers, highly, which has been a losing strategy or signing big name FA pitchers, which has been a losing strategy, are not the only two ways to build up a rotation and pitching staff.

 

IFA is one road, and the Sox seem to do better there than via drafting or signings.

 

Trading for a solid ace or #2 has also proven to be an area the Sox have nailed, since trading for Pedro over 20 years ago:

Pedro

Schilling

Beckett

Sale

Porcello

 

I like those winning percentages more. You should, too.

 

Even teams that are much better than we are at developing fine young pitchers, often do not draft them highly.

 

We've swung and missed on most of our mid-level pitching additions. There is no sugar coating that. That strategy is not a winning one, either, but switching from one losing strategy to a more expensive losing strategy (signing guys like deGrom or Rodon) does not make sense to me. Drafting pitchers higher in the draft, just to say you did, despite the odds being greatly against a hit, is not something I want to switch to either. And, I'd at least wait until I know I have a better pitcher development system in place.

 

I like the direction our development system seems to be heading (key word: "seems,") but I'd want to be fully convinced, first.

[notin]

Henry showing up now does not help the team in anyway. How the fans feel about the team doesn't change how the team plays.

 

Also, “team chemistry” doesn’t make pitchers more effective…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Drafting pitchers, highly, which has been a losing strategy or signing big name FA pitchers, which has been a losing strategy, are not the only two ways to build up a rotation and pitching staff.

 

IFA is one road, and the Sox seem to do better there than via drafting or signings.

 

Trading for a solid ace or #2 has also proven to be an area the Sox have nailed, since trading for Pedro over 20 years ago:

Pedro

Schilling

Beckett

Sale

Porcello

 

I like those winning percentages more. You should, too.

 

Even teams that are much better than we are at developing fine young pitchers, often do not draft them highly.

 

We've swung and missed on most of our mid-level pitching additions. There is no sugar coating that. That strategy is not a winning one, either, but switching from one losing strategy to a more expensive losing strategy (signing guys like deGrom or Rodon) does not make sense to me. Drafting pitchers higher in the draft, just to say you did, despite the odds being greatly against a hit, is not something I want to switch to either. And, I'd at least wait until I know I have a better pitcher development system in place.

 

I like the direction our development system seems to be heading (key word: "seems,") but I'd want to be fully convinced, first.

 

Yeah, we just need someone in charge who's not afraid to trade prospects for a legitimate big league pitcher.

 

I know we've been through this plenty of times before -- and will discuss until our current or future front office makes these moves we fans crave.

 

Personally, I was never a fan of the approach: We shouldn't invest in any really good pitchers until our team is really good!

 

Bloom, BOH and Sam always say "it has to make sense"... but does that? If they were typing instead of blabbing, maybe it would be spelled "cents."

[moonslav59]

Yeah, we just need someone in charge who's not afraid to trade prospects for a legitimate big league pitcher.

 

I know we've been through this plenty of times before -- and will discuss until our current or future front office makes these moves we fans crave.

 

Personally, I was never a fan of the approach: We shouldn't invest in any really good pitchers until our team is really good!

 

Bloom, BOH and Sam always say "it has to make sense"... but does that? If they were typing instead of blabbing, maybe it would be spelled "cents."

 

I was sure that Ben was going to make 1-2 prospect deals, but they hired DD before we could find out.

 

I feel Bloom will, too, but I think I can see the wisdom or "waiting" a little more than you do.

 

Trading prospects before you think you can compete for a ring, starts the aging clock on the pitcher you get a year or two or three too early. By the time your farm is at the point you can expect constant infusions, your pitcheer is in decline.

 

Where I differ from JH & Co, is I think we could have been close enough in 2022, and certainly in 2023. They better think '24 is it.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I was sure that Ben was going to make 1-2 prospect deals, but they hired DD before we could find out.

 

I feel Bloom will, too, but I think I can see the wisdom or "waiting" a little more than you do.

 

Trading prospects before you think you can compete for a ring, starts the aging clock on the pitcher you get a year or two or three too early. By the time your farm is at the point you can expect constant infusions, your pitcheer is in decline.

 

Where I differ from JH & Co, is I think we could have been close enough in 2022, and certainly in 2023. They better think '24 is it.

 

Short essay question: Compare & Contrast Ben and Chaim. Youngish GMs who made their bones assisting more successful bosses. Each engineered one big "necessary" trade, signed or acquired veteran players on short deals that led clubs at least as far as the ALCS, blew money on expensive free agents, and tried to contrive new full-time positions out of big leaguers suitable for blaming.

 

Contrast: Ben won it all, in a year he actually dealt for a legitimate starting pitcher at the trade deadline. The pitcher wasn't lights-out -- but his 4.04 ERA in 64.2 IP and 10 starts was considered a big key in a title drive, giving both the rotation and bullpen important breathers and time to regroup before the playoff run. And Ben didn't just swap any Paulino with potential, but an actual MLB rookie regular... he wasn't afraid to sacrifice surplus.

[Larry Cook]

Short essay question: Compare & Contrast Ben and Chaim. Youngish GMs who made their bones assisting more successful bosses. Each engineered one big "necessary" trade, signed or acquired veteran players on short deals that led clubs at least as far as the ALCS, blew money on expensive free agents, and tried to contrive new full-time positions out of big leaguers suitable for blaming.

 

Contrast: Ben won it all, in a year he actually dealt for a legitimate starting pitcher at the trade deadline. The pitcher wasn't lights-out -- but his 4.04 ERA in 64.2 IP and 10 starts was considered a big key in a title drive, giving both the rotation and bullpen important breathers and time to regroup before the playoff run. And Ben didn't just swap any Paulino with potential, but an actual MLB rookie regular... he wasn't afraid to sacrifice surplus.

 

I think letting Ben go was a huge mistake! Hang’em Chaim will get more time to prove himself than Ben got and Ben won a World Series

[a700hitter]

Ben is killing it in Pittsburgh. He has finished last or tied for last place for 3 years in a row. Together with the last place finishes in his last 2 seasons with the Red Sox, he has finished last 5 years in a row. He is as reliable as a Swiss Watch. This year his team is one game out of last place — that is called an outlier year.

[moonslav59]

Short essay question: Compare & Contrast Ben and Chaim. Youngish GMs who made their bones assisting more successful bosses. Each engineered one big "necessary" trade, signed or acquired veteran players on short deals that led clubs at least as far as the ALCS, blew money on expensive free agents, and tried to contrive new full-time positions out of big leaguers suitable for blaming.

 

Contrast: Ben won it all, in a year he actually dealt for a legitimate starting pitcher at the trade deadline. The pitcher wasn't lights-out -- but his 4.04 ERA in 64.2 IP and 10 starts was considered a big key in a title drive, giving both the rotation and bullpen important breathers and time to regroup before the playoff run. And Ben didn't just swap any Paulino with potential, but an actual MLB rookie regular... he wasn't afraid to sacrifice surplus.

 

I'm not sure I'd say that trade was what won a ring.

Ben's signing of Dempster was very similar to the Kluber and Richards signings.

The big differences between Ben and Bloom was that Ben was able to spend the money saved on his big trade, immediately, and the players he inherited did not all decline or get hurt right off the bat.

 

I do think both are capable of trading prospects for top pitching.

 

[oldtimer]

Dombrowski extended Chris Sale for 5 years beginning in 2020 for a contract value of $145 Mil. He was 31 yo at the time and had been a great ML pitcher and been in the league for 10 years at that time. Chris is a very competitive guy and of course is long and very thin. Dave signed Chris to be an ace based on the money laid out, which runs through 2024. One can ask if that contract was sensible at the time. It is hard to anticipate the future, but what has happened clearly shows the investment has not paid off in value.

 

2020 was a Covid shortened year and Chris didn't appear.

 

2021 saw Chris appear in only 9 games for 42.2 innings with a 3.10 ERA

 

2022 saw Chris appear in 2 games for 5.2 innings with a 3.18 ERA

,

2023 ytd has seen Chris appear in 15 games for 77.2 innings and a 4.75 ERA

 

The results have certainly not lived up to the expectations brought about by the ace level effect on payroll. The remainder of the contract does not appear to be rosy as Chris is in decline. While it is easy to criticize Dombrowski's decision in retrospect, it may not be all that fair. One thing for sure though is that the contract has been an albatross hung around the Sox neck which has limited what Bloom has been able to do.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski extended Chris Sale for 5 years beginning in 2020 for a contract value of $145 Mil. He was 31 yo at the time and had been a great ML pitcher and been in the league for 10 years at that time. Chris is a very competitive guy and of course is long and very thin. Dave signed Chris to be an ace based on the money laid out, which runs through 2024. One can ask if that contract was sensible at the time. It is hard to anticipate the future, but what has happened clearly shows the investment has not paid off in value.

 

2020 was a Covid shortened year and Chris didn't appear.

 

2021 saw Chris appear in only 9 games for 42.2 innings with a 3.10 ERA

 

2022 saw Chris appear in 2 games for 5.2 innings with a 3.18 ERA

,

2023 ytd has seen Chris appear in 15 games for 77.2 innings and a 4.75 ERA

 

The results have certainly not lived up to the expectations brought about by the ace level effect on payroll. The remainder of the contract does not appear to be rosy as Chris is in decline. While it is easy to criticize Dombrowski's decision in retrospect, it may not be all that fair. One thing for sure though is that the contract has been an albatross hung around the Sox neck which has limited what Bloom has been able to do.

 

No doubt. He is Freakin' Chris Sale and no longer Chris Freakin' Sale.

 

He teased us with a 12 game stretch of 3.75 pitching (3.23 FIP,) but that's all it was- a big tease.

 

His last 3 starts: 14 IP

5.79 ERA

4.06 FIP

 

He'll have to go 4-1 to end the season to bring back some respect . I don't see that happening.

 

[Duran Is The Man]

Dombrowski extended Chris Sale for 5 years beginning in 2020 for a contract value of $145 Mil. He was 31 yo at the time and had been a great ML pitcher and been in the league for 10 years at that time. Chris is a very competitive guy and of course is long and very thin. Dave signed Chris to be an ace based on the money laid out, which runs through 2024. One can ask if that contract was sensible at the time. It is hard to anticipate the future, but what has happened clearly shows the investment has not paid off in value.

 

2020 was a Covid shortened year and Chris didn't appear.

 

2021 saw Chris appear in only 9 games for 42.2 innings with a 3.10 ERA

 

2022 saw Chris appear in 2 games for 5.2 innings with a 3.18 ERA

,

2023 ytd has seen Chris appear in 15 games for 77.2 innings and a 4.75 ERA

 

The results have certainly not lived up to the expectations brought about by the ace level effect on payroll. The remainder of the contract does not appear to be rosy as Chris is in decline. While it is easy to criticize Dombrowski's decision in retrospect, it may not be all that fair. One thing for sure though is that the contract has been an albatross hung around the Sox neck which has limited what Bloom has been able to do.

 

the dodgers are and have been paying Trevor Bauer $23 million for less than we got from Sale and they seem to be doing fine. yes, the contract sucks, but that's no excuse for the s***** job that Bloom has done.

[mvp 78]

the dodgers are and have been paying Trevor Bauer $23 million for less than we got from Sale and they seem to be doing fine. yes, the contract sucks, but that's no excuse for the s***** job that Bloom has done.

 

They're spending almost 60M more than JH is willing to fork out, but are still only 6th in MLB in spending behind PHI, TEX, SDP, NYY, NYM.

[mvp 78]

Maybe Vlad Dracul needs to stand outside Fenway with a Wally boot collecting donations so that he can afford a higher payroll?

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe Vlad Dracul needs to stand outside Fenway with a Wally boot collecting donations so that he can afford a higher payroll?

 

Or you could put him in a dunking booth.

[mvp 78]

Or you could put him in a dunking booth.

 

How hot is the water? Or are we adding in some FL bacteria (flesh and or brain eating)?

[oldtimer]

the dodgers are and have been paying Trevor Bauer $23 million for less than we got from Sale and they seem to be doing fine. yes, the contract sucks, but that's no excuse for the s***** job that Bloom has done.

I agree, there are lots of examples of high paid starting pitchers not being worth the money they are paid. We had Price (which at least partially cost us Betts} and now we have Sale. We also have Kluber, but at least he is only getting paid 4th or 5th starter money. Other teams have their own nightmares. It comes down to wise decision making by the GM and front office in general. I agree with Moon, we need a couple of front line pitchers for 2024 if we are to be seriously competitive. Bloom has to stop dumpster diving and find legitimate healthy talent.

 

On the offensive side Bloom did well with Turner, Duval and Abreu, now get with the pitching and also lets get a look at some of our top prospects as our chances of reaching the playoffs this year are minimal.

[Maxbialystock]

I agree, there are lots of examples of high paid starting pitchers not being worth the money they are paid. We had Price (which at least partially cost us Betts} and now we have Sale. We also have Kluber, but at least he is only getting paid 4th or 5th starter money. Other teams have their own nightmares. It comes down to wise decision making by the GM and front office in general. I agree with Moon, we need a couple of front line pitchers for 2024 if we are to be seriously competitive. Bloom has to stop dumpster diving and find legitimate healthy talent.

 

On the offensive side Bloom did well with Turner, Duval and Abreu, now get with the pitching and also lets get a look at some of our top prospects as our chances of reaching the playoffs this year are minimal.

 

I believe JH has put a damper on multiyear contracts for starters and that DD was the one who poisoned that well. To be fair, DD made several good moves--JDM, Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Kimbrel, et al--to improve an already good Sox team into the best Sox team ever in 2018. But what no doubt infuriated JH was the very next season, 2019, that great 2018 team was still very much intact and could not make it to the postseason, primarily because the big money guys, Sale and Price, turned sour.

 

So DD was fired and CB hired with the guidance to avoid big contracts for starters.

[Randy Red Sox]

So how do we get “good” without good pitching?

[Bellhorn04]

I believe JH has put a damper on multiyear contracts for starters and that DD was the one who poisoned that well. To be fair, DD made several good moves--JDM, Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Kimbrel, et al--to improve an already good Sox team into the best Sox team ever in 2018. But what no doubt infuriated JH was the very next season, 2019, that great 2018 team was still very much intact and could not make it to the postseason, primarily because the big money guys, Sale and Price, turned sour.

 

So DD was fired and CB hired with the guidance to avoid big contracts for starters.

 

And if CB doesn't do something to seriously upgrade the rotation before 2024, he's an abject failure.

[notin]

How hot is the water? Or are we adding in some FL bacteria (flesh and or brain eating)?

 

Wow!! Both Florida flavors!

[notin]

And if CB doesn't do something to seriously upgrade the rotation before 2024, he's an abject failure.

 

To many fans, yes.

 

But again - what was he really hired to do?

[mvp 78]

Wow!! Both Florida flavors!

 

Oh, it's closer to 31 flavors like Baskin Robbins if anything.

[Old Red]

To many fans, yes.

 

But again - what was he really hired to do?

 

If he wasn’t hired to make the team to be competitive, and in the postseason every year than what’s the use. You should be able to make the farm better too. Sam Kennedy said all of baseball ops failed last year by not making the postseason. What will he say this year if the same results occur?

[moonslav59]

I believe JH has put a damper on multiyear contracts for starters and that DD was the one who poisoned that well. To be fair, DD made several good moves--JDM, Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Kimbrel, et al--to improve an already good Sox team into the best Sox team ever in 2018. But what no doubt infuriated JH was the very next season, 2019, that great 2018 team was still very much intact and could not make it to the postseason, primarily because the big money guys, Sale and Price, turned sour.

 

So DD was fired and CB hired with the guidance to avoid big contracts for starters.

 

Yes, but zero big contracts from Spring 2019 to spring 2022 (Story.) That's 3 years. Then, 3 big signings in 2 years (Story, Yoshida and Devers (spring 2022-spring 2024)

 

We didn't even have more than a couple 2 year deals over those 3 years (Kike '21-'22 and ???)

 

I do see a shift happening.

 

I also see more fram help coming up, now and expected next year and beyond.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by moonslav59