Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[Randy Red Sox]

No try drafting and developing some instead of drafting 5 shortstops.

I really like Casas, but I also like Mayer, Anthony and other top prospects.

 

How do you propose we trade for an excellent, cost-controlled pitcher with 3+ years of team control without giving up something of value.

 

A common misconception is that suggesting a trade of a good player means we devalue them or want to "dump them," because we don't like them.

 

We need a middle IF'er badly, so I want to keep Mayer.

 

We will need OF'ers, soon, so I want to keep Anthony and Bleis, and their trade value should only increase, anyway. It's also why we should keep Rafaela and Abreu.

 

Who else should we trade for pitching?

 

Verdugo won't get us a good one.

 

Trade Duran?

 

 

 

[Hugh2]

No try drafting and developing some instead of drafting 5 shortstops.

 

*sigh*

 

THey didn't draft 5 short stops.

[moonslav59]

Yamamoto is available, for one. Other teams get good value from the IFA market, as well as the secondary FA market? Why can't the Red Sox do it? They also have minor league depth in many positions, but not a hitter like Casas or Devers in the MiLB system. It's a matter of common sense.

 

I mentioned Urias and YY, but even them are big dice rolls. To me, trading for a 25-26 year old pitcher who looks like a certain solid TOR SP'er is less of a dice roll, and that's why it costs top prospects to do it.

 

Pedro

Schilling

Beckett

 

vs

 

Price

Lackey

Richard/Kluber and back to back to back $10M guys

(Dempster, Clement are the next highest FA SP'ers the Sox have signed)

 

Like I said in a subsequent post, guarantee Bloom signs Urias or YY, and I withdraw my suggestions of trading Casas or Duran for top pitching.

[moonslav59]

Trading Casas is just bananas, and should be a conversational ENDER.

 

Feel free to stop responding to a valid suggestion.

[Randy Red Sox]

how old is this P from Japan and what type stuff does he have? Is he simply a FA or does he have to be posted?

[redsoxrules]

Trade Casas for a good starting pitcher if you believe you can't develop pitching AND you need to move Devers to 1b.

 

Casas could be a better hitter than Devers and you want to get rid of him?

[mvp 78]

*sigh*

 

THey didn't draft 5 short stops.

 

Yorke? Announced as a 2B

Mayer

Romero

Coffey

Meidroth

Anderson

Nazzan

Campbell

Riemer

 

All top 5 round guys announced as SS.

[mvp 78]

Casas could be a better hitter than Devers and you want to get rid of him?

 

I'm saying that's "a plan" not "my plan." Someone suggested that Devers has to move to 1B and that's one way to do it.

[moonslav59]

*sigh*

 

THey didn't draft 5 short stops.

 

They drafted 4, this year. (Yes, some will be moved.)

Zanetello

Anderson

Campbell

Riemer

 

3 in top 4 rounds in '22 (some have already been moved to other positions)

Romero

Coffey

Meidroth

 

2021

Mayer (sticking at SS)

 

The point was about drafting SSs that can or should be moved to 3B.

 

[Hugh2]

Feel free to stop responding to a valid suggestion.

 

We are a mediocre team, and you want to add an ACE by taking away a future and current slugger? so at best we become marginally better with less future assets.

 

It's like pulling the chicken out of the oven when it's still pink in the inside. It's NOT the time to sell your assets for pitching. You don't have enough assets to be a championship-caliber team, you trade from surpluss.

 

The Sox had a top farm and a first-place team I'd agree......that was the EXACT position they were in when they traded for Sale and it got them a world series. If you add a healthy Sale onto this team......it doesn't get a you a world series, and even worse under your scenario you're subtracting Casas and Mayer.

 

 

Your suggestion is valid, I'm arguing that your timing is off.

[mvp 78]

how old is this P from Japan and what type stuff does he have? Is he simply a FA or does he have to be posted?

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=yamamo004yos

 

The MLB club that eventually signs Yamamoto would need to pay the Buffaloes a fee that is equal to 20% of the contract's first $25MM, plus 17.5% of the next $25MM and 15% of any dollars committed thereafter.

 

He turned 25 yesterday.

[Randy Red Sox]

I am referring to a quote from another poster. In any event no-one is trading us a #1 or #2 SP. We either draft and develop them ourselves or Bloom simply goes out and signs us the next Kluber. Why is it that teams like Seattle, Cleveland and Tampa just to name a few can have so many top young SP but not the Sox?

Yorke? Announced as a 2B

Mayer

Romero

Coffey

Meidroth

Anderson

Nazzan

Campbell

Riemer

 

All top 5 round guys announced as SS.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Randy Red Sox

[Hugh2]

Yorke? Announced as a 2B

Mayer

Romero

Coffey

Meidroth

Anderson

Nazzan

Campbell

Riemer

 

All top 5 round guys announced as SS.

 

That's also three years worth of picks, many of those guys either already have moved off position or will.

 

It's been said many times, and it's a point that eludes many around here and I know you're NOT one of them but most highschool position players drafted are going to be short stops.

[mvp 78]

We are a mediocre team, and you want to add an ACE by taking away a future and current slugger? so at best we become marginally better with less future assets.

 

It's like pulling the chicken out of the oven when it's still pink in the inside. It's NOT the time to sell your assets for pitching. You don't have enough assets to be a championship-caliber team, you trade from surpluss.

 

The Sox had a top farm and a first-place team I'd agree......that was the EXACT position they were in when they traded for Sale and it got them a world series. If you add a healthy Sale onto this team......it doesn't get a you a world series, and even worse under your scenario you're subtracting Casas and Mayer.

 

 

Your suggestion is valid, I'm arguing that your timing is off.

 

How do they get to the cusp of a WS without adding pitching? It can't all be done via FA.

[Randy Red Sox]

I agree with that.

How do they get to the cusp of a WS without adding pitching? It can't all be done via FA.

[moonslav59]

We are a mediocre team, and you want to add an ACE by taking away a future and current slugger? so at best we become marginally better with less future assets.

 

Short answer: YES!

 

Longer answer: it's better than killing the budget on a 25% hope a big FA pitcher signing works well.

[moonslav59]

 

Your suggestion is valid, I'm arguing that your timing is off.

 

Maybe waiting for 2025 would be better, despite losing ujansen, martin and a few other key pieces after 2024, but I do think we can compete with the addition of two solid and dependable SP'ers.

 

IN 2024!

 

Yes, I do.

 

I think we could have, this year, had we gone over the tax line and got lucky with our FA pitcher signings.

 

Key words "get lucky," because that's what relying on top FA pitchers is.

 

Look at the history.

 

Look at the history of trading for younger SP'ers.

[moonslav59]

I am referring to a quote from another poster. In any event no-one is trading us a #1 or #2 SP. We either draft and develop them ourselves or Bloom simply goes out and signs us the next Kluber. Why is it that teams like Seattle, Cleveland and Tampa just to name a few can have so many top young SP but not the Sox?

 

SEA also traded top prospects for Castillo.

[mvp 78]

That's also three years worth of picks, many of those guys either already have moved off position or will.

 

It's been said many times, and it's a point that eludes many around here and I know you're NOT one of them but most highschool position players drafted are going to be short stops.

 

I thought moon's point was that they drafted so many that they could move them off position? You draft an athletic SS and that guy (for example Antonio Anderson) becomes a 3B early on in MiLB. The people that rant about "they drafted so many SS's" will never get the point anyway. They drafted Blaze Jordan as a 3B and if he gets to MLB it most likely won't be at that position.

[mvp 78]

SEA also traded top prospects for Castillo.

 

Foolish! They are wasting his prime years!!!!

[Hugh2]

How do they get to the cusp of a WS without adding pitching? It can't all be done via FA.

 

So, the only way a team can get there is by trading 3 of their best assets for an ACE? No other team in the history of baseball has ever built a team that can, they have always traded for aces because no aces exist until you ever trade for the ACE?

 

 

Thought experiment, has there ever been a fringe .500 team, that traded away their farm for an ACE and won the world series the next year?

 

follow up question to that, how did that franchise fare in the years to come? did they falter or have sustained success?

 

I'll repeat what I said to Moon. It's a sound strategy, but the timing is wrong. And as is with life......timing is everything.

[Randy Red Sox]

Wow that is a lot coin. Not sure Henry would open his wallet that much but I'd be in on this guy. Is this the same guy we saw in the WBC that was throwing 100?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=yamamo004yos

 

The MLB club that eventually signs Yamamoto would need to pay the Buffaloes a fee that is equal to 20% of the contract's first $25MM, plus 17.5% of the next $25MM and 15% of any dollars committed thereafter.

 

He turned 25 yesterday.

[moonslav59]

I thought moon's point was that they drafted so many that they could move them off position? You draft an athletic SS and that guy (for example Antonio Anderson) becomes a 3B early on in MiLB. The people that rant about "they drafted so many SS's" will never get the point anyway. They drafted Blaze Jordan as a 3B and if he gets to MLB it most likely won't be at that position.

 

Yes, that was my point.

 

The problem is, none of those "SSs" are ready to play 3B at the MLB level, next year. That's why I asked about Story playing 3B.

[Hugh2]

I thought moon's point was that they drafted so many that they could move them off position? You draft an athletic SS and that guy (for example Antonio Anderson) becomes a 3B early on in MiLB. The people that rant about "they drafted so many SS's" will never get the point anyway. They drafted Blaze Jordan as a 3B and if he gets to MLB it most likely won't be at that position.

 

Exactly. That's my point. Complaining about drafting too many shorts stops is inehrently the wrong argument, when one should say "they draft too many position players"

 

But f*** it, stick to what you're good at. If the Sox drafted more pitchers the last 5 years they likely would have the same exact record right now and the farm system could be 1/2 as good as it is now.

 

Then Moon would have no prospects left to trade for a pitcher anyways.

 

Also, the Sox go very pitcher heavy in the IFA market and its' starting to show with Bello and many of their top pitching prospects being IFA guys. I'd like to see more of that.

[Randy Red Sox]

Nonetheless Logan Gilbers and George Kirby were BOTH 1st rd picks in back to back years.

SEA also traded top prospects for Castillo.

[moonslav59]

Exactly. That's my point. Complaining about drafting too many shorts stops is inehrently the wrong argument, when one should say "they draft too many position players"

 

But f*** it, stick to what you're good at. If the Sox drafted more pitchers the last 5 years they likely would have the same exact record right now and the farm system could be 1/2 as good as it is now.

 

Then Moon would have no prospects left to trade for a pitcher anyways.

 

Also, the Sox go very pitcher heavy in the IFA market and its' starting to show with Bello and many of their top pitching prospects being IFA guys. I'd like to see more of that.

 

Well said.

 

I do think one argument many have been making is that drafting almost only everyday players, which we are good at, would allow us to trade some for top pitching. It's just that when you name specific ones, everybody gets their panties in a bunch.

 

You have to choose the right ones to trade, and that means when their trade value is high.

 

You look at where logjams are, and where the team needs are, when you make the choice on who to trade.

 

I am all about farm building, and I'm not for mega prospect trades for SP'er, every year, but I do think once every 4-5 years is not only okay, but should be part of the plans, until we figure out how to develop great pitching, ourselves.

 

(It seems we might be moving in the right direction in that area: Bello, Houck, Whitlock, Crawford, Wink, Murphy and some promising pitchers on the farm, right now.)

[moonslav59]

Nonetheless Logan Gilbers and George Kirby were BOTH 1st rd picks in back to back years.

 

I'm all for getting top pitchers through the farm, but that's not happening overnight.

 

We are stacked with position players and need pitching.

 

My suggestions are valid. They are not the only options, but it has been one area we have had continued success at doing. arguing we eed to do something we suck at instead, like signing big FA pitchers or drafting SP'ers in the first round, seems like a worse idea, to me.

[mvp 78]

Yes, that was my point.

 

The problem is, none of those "SSs" are ready to play 3B at the MLB level, next year. That's why I asked about Story playing 3B.

 

Story could probably play 3B? His arm seems ok. That's A LOT of moving parts though. Devers to 1B. Story to 3B. New SS. New 2B. Not that they don't need a new IF.

[mvp 78]

Exactly. That's my point. Complaining about drafting too many shorts stops is inehrently the wrong argument, when one should say "they draft too many position players"

 

But f*** it, stick to what you're good at. If the Sox drafted more pitchers the last 5 years they likely would have the same exact record right now and the farm system could be 1/2 as good as it is now.

 

Then Moon would have no prospects left to trade for a pitcher anyways.

 

Also, the Sox go very pitcher heavy in the IFA market and its' starting to show with Bello and many of their top pitching prospects being IFA guys. I'd like to see more of that.

 

IFA guys take a LOOOOOONG time to develop though. Bello was signed in 2017!

[moonslav59]

Story could probably play 3B? His arm seems ok. That's A LOT of moving parts though. Devers to 1B. Story to 3B. New SS. New 2B. Not that they don't need a new IF.

 

I think the plan is Urias and Reyes at 2B in 2024 with Yorke on the horizon.