Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[Nick]

That seems to be the likely 13. Rodriguez will relace Bleier. A lefty for another lefty.

 

I think they like Bernardino and will keep him in AAA.

 

At least one starter will go to the pen and knock out Brasier.

[moonslav59]

That seems to be the likely 13. Rodriguez will relace Bleier. A lefty for another lefty.

 

I think they like Bernardino and will keep him in AAA.

 

At least one starter will go to the pen and knock out Brasier.

 

It makes sense to us, but I am pretty certain we keep one from Brasier or Bleier- somehow- someway. It would make sense to keep the elfty, Bleier, but we have seen how Braiser has 999 lives.

 

Maybe someone goes on the IL, even if phantom.

 

Trades are usually not made in May, unless minor ones, like Brasier for a far away prospect or "cash considerations," not sure which side gets the cash.

 

A DFA makes the most sense, and maybe someone grabs him and saves us some on the budget.

 

I mean, the White Sox not only took Diekman and his 1.3 years of salary remaining, but they gave us McGuire, too!

 

Stranger things have happened.

[Larry Cook]

So… Brasier closing?

 

Can we put houck back in as the closer. Trade Jensen for a lefty reliever

[Hugh2]

Can we put houck back in as the closer. Trade Jensen for a lefty reliever

 

I have zero problem moving Houck to the bullpen, but why so quick to give up on Jensen. He’s been money up until this weekend?

[Old Red]

Can we put houck back in as the closer. Trade Jensen for a lefty reliever

 

No!, and No!

[moonslav59]

I have zero problem moving Houck to the bullpen, but why so quick to give up on Jensen. He’s been money up until this weekend?

 

If we demoted or dumped evry player after two bad games, we'd have nobody left.

[moonslav59]

ERA/FIP

 

Sale

3.16/2.33 last 5 starts

2.21/2.16 last 3 starts

 

Paxton

3.60/2.89 last start

 

Bello

2.81/4.48 last 3 games

 

Kluber

3.86/5.25 last 3 starts

 

Houck

4.76 ERA last start

 

It looks like our rotation is trending upwards, but some of these sample sizes are small or tiny.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by moonslav59

[Maxbialystock]

ERA/FIP

 

Sale

3.16/2.33 last 5 starts

2.21/2.16 last 3 starts

 

Paxton

3.60/2.89 last start

 

Kluber

3.86/5.25 last 3 starts

 

Houck

4.76 ERA last start

 

It looks like our rotation is trending upwards, but some of these sample sizes are small or tiny.

 

 

Agree the sample is small, but the eye test says Sale is his old self, Paxton has pretty good stuff for a guy who's been out forever, Bello shows real promise, Houck, if anything, is getting better, and Kluber seems to have figured out how to be effective with a really slow fastball. Best news? If Cora has any sense, Pivetta is his 6th starter with all that implies.

 

On the other hand, yesterday Cora made it known to the world he doesn't believe in or trust his bullpen any more--not when he sends Jansen back out to save Sale's absolutely brilliant start (1 run, 8 innings). So, either Cora is just stupid, or he simply thought nobody else besides Jansen--who was obliterated the night before without getting anyone out--could pitch the 9th with a 2 run lead.

[moonslav59]

Agree the sample is small, but the eye test says Sale is his old self, Paxton has pretty good stuff for a guy who's been out forever, Bello shows real promise, Houck, if anything, is getting better, and Kluber seems to have figured out how to be effective with a really slow fastball. Best news? If Cora has any sense, Pivetta is his 6th starter with all that implies.

 

I went back and added Bello.

[moonslav59]

On the other hand, yesterday Cora made it known to the world he doesn't believe in or trust his bullpen any more--not when he sends Jansen back out to save Sale's absolutely brilliant start (1 run, 8 innings). So, either Cora is just stupid, or he simply thought nobody else besides Jansen--who was obliterated the night before without getting anyone out--could pitch the 9th with a 2 run lead.

 

Or, he trusted Martin and Schreiber, but just trusted Jansen a little more - you know, the most consistently good closer over the last 11 years.

 

A manager is stupid for not going with the one game sample size over 11 years?

 

Look, I'm not defending or criticizing a move like this, especially in hindsight.

 

There are a lot of moving parts that go into these decisions that I know I am not privy to.

[notin]

Or, he trusted Martin and Schreiber, but just trusted Jansen a little more - you know, the most consistently good closer over the last 11 years.

 

A manager is stupid for not going with the one game sample size over 11 years?

 

Look, I'm not defending or criticizing a move like this, especially in hindsight.

 

There are a lot of moving parts that go into these decisions that I know I am not privy to.

 

I doubt it was a matter of trust.

 

I’m 100% positive the reason Jansen was back out there was Cora wanted him to put Friday behind him and move on.

 

Problem is - it clearly backfired…

[Bellhorn04]

I doubt it was a matter of trust.

 

I’m 100% positive the reason Jansen was back out there was Cora wanted him to put Friday behind him and move on.

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

[notin]

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

Fair, although if it’s more about putting Jansen back on the proverbial horse, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about the rest of the bullpen…

[notin]

We just need to get Whitlock back healthy. The same goes for Crawford (we miss him). Rodriguez is to be activated on Monday.

 

This is what our staff may look like soon. I don't see how Brasier stays on......but on paper this can be a decent staff, if we can fix the starting rotation. There's depth in the pen if for example we move Houck and Whitlock (definitely NOT advocating this).

 

1 Sale

2 Paxton

3 Kluber

4 Pivetta

5 Whitlock

6 Houck

7 Bello

8 Kutter

9 Winckowski

10 Schreiber

11 Martin

12 Jansen

13 Rodrigues

14 Bernardino

15 Bleier

16 Brasier

 

 

Bello, Houck, Crawford, Whitlock, Winckowski, Schreiber and Bernardino all have an option remaining.

 

I suspect we’ll see demotions from that list before we see a DFA of either Brasier or Bleier…

[Maxbialystock]

Fair, although if it’s more about putting Jansen back on the proverbial horse, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about the rest of the bullpen…

 

I agree. I even think that's 2 reasons to go with Jansen yesterday: 1) 11 years of consistent relieving/closing; 2) get him back on the horse so he can demonstrate he's still got it. I'll even add a 3d reason. Why pay a guy $16 freaking million to close and then not let him close?

 

And I still think Cora is wrong--for three reasons.

 

The first is that Jansen absolutely stunk Friday night: 3 runs and no outs plus a complete disregard of the runners on first base. Brasier, of all people, replaced him and immediately got three outs.

 

The second is that Friday night was a far more relevant statistic than the previous 11 years or even the previous six weeks of this season. If you doubt that, just look at how Jansen pitched Saturday. Same exact issues.

 

And the third is that the point of playing and managing a game is to win it. Getting Jansen "back up on the horse" had to be secondary to winning the game.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree. I even think that's 2 reasons to go with Jansen yesterday: 1) 11 years of consistent relieving/closing; 2) get him back on the horse so he can demonstrate he's still got it. I'll even add a 3d reason. Why pay a guy $16 freaking million to close and then not let him close?

 

And I still think Cora is wrong--for three reasons.

 

The first is that Jansen absolutely stunk Friday night: 3 runs and no outs plus a complete disregard of the runners on first base. Brasier, of all people, replaced him and immediately got three outs.

 

The second is that Friday night was a far more relevant statistic than the previous 11 years or even the previous six weeks of this season. If you doubt that, just look at how Jansen pitched Saturday. Same exact issues.

 

And the third is that the point of playing and managing a game is to win it. Getting Jansen "back up on the horse" had to be secondary to winning the game.

 

So when would you use Jansen again?

[moonslav59]

I doubt it was a matter of trust.

 

I’m 100% positive the reason Jansen was back out there was Cora wanted him to put Friday behind him and move on.

 

Problem is - it clearly backfired…

 

That very well might have been a major reason, but he might have also liked the match-ups better, too.

[moonslav59]

Bello, Houck, Crawford, Whitlock, Winckowski, Schreiber and Bernardino all have an option remaining.

 

I suspect we’ll see demotions from that list before we see a DFA of either Brasier or Bleier…

 

Bernardino, yes- anyone else will grossly hurt the skill level of the staff.

[moonslav59]

So when would you use Jansen again?

 

If he's healthy, a ay off and then...

[Nick]

Kluber is nothing more than a knuckle ball pitcher. You watch him throw then keep your fingers crossed.

[moonslav59]

Kluber is nothing more than a knuckle ball pitcher. You watch him throw then keep your fingers crossed.

 

He's trying to reinvent himself right before our eyes.

 

Rolling the dice.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Kluber is nothing more than a knuckle ball pitcher. You watch him throw then keep your fingers crossed.

 

Kluber is cooked. All the quotes about getting ripped by the last-place Cardinals were because he was mislocating his "fastball". He doesn't have the stuff anymore to blow it past big league hitters, so he has to be perfect on the perimeters just to survive every game. It's not happening.

 

The Red Sox and Bloom need to admit mistake signings -- like they did with Richards and Diekman -- and move on. Put the best five starters in the rotation -- not the five who have the least amount of "options" remaining. Here's an option: stop pretending to contend, and expedite the future by giving younger starters regular turns in the rotation, where they can develop their legitimate stuff.

 

It's easier for fans to watch the youthful promise of hope than fading figures of mope.

[Old Red]

Kluber is cooked. All the quotes about getting ripped by the last-place Cardinals were because he was mislocating his "fastball". He doesn't have the stuff anymore to blow it past big league hitters, so he has to be perfect on the perimeters just to survive every game. It's not happening.

 

The Red Sox and Bloom need to admit mistake signings -- like they did with Richards and Diekman -- and move on. Put the best five starters in the rotation -- not the five who have the least amount of "options" remaining. Here's an option: stop pretending to contend, and expedite the future by giving younger starters regular turns in the rotation, where they can develop their legitimate stuff.

 

It's easier for fans to watch the youthful promise of hope than fading figures of mope.

Like I said at the time that Kluber was the cheaper option to Evol, or Wacha. You got what you paid for, and what they deserved.

[Bellhorn04]

Like I said at the time that Kluber was the cheaper option to Evol, or Wacha. You got what you paid for, and what they deserved.

 

Yeah, the cheapness on upgrading the rotation is looking bad.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yeah, the cheapness on upgrading the rotation is looking bad.

 

It's looking more likely the term "upside" was just Bloom-speak for "hey, maybe we'll get lucky" ...

 

I just can't stand the warped team-building approach of not investing in actual good pitching until the club is actually good.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm going to get crushed about this again, but Kluber has an ERA of 7.08 and an OPSa of .916 in 7 games with his "binky" McGuire. The other guy who McGuire looked to be binky for was Pivetta, with remarkably similar results of 7.11 and .922.

[Hugh2]

I'm going to get crushed about this again, but Kluber has an ERA of 7.08 and an OPSa of .916 in 7 games with his "binky" McGuire. The other guy who McGuire looked to be binky for was Pivetta, with remarkably similar results of 7.11 and .922.

 

Yup.

 

 

Right, because those guys are obviously good pitchers throwing to the wrong guy.

 

Lets for one second assume I'm wrong, you're right, now I have to sing a song.....even advocates of CERA present data that the increase ERA is what? a run or less per game? These 7.08 and 7.11 ERAs are insanely high. It's obviously NOT the catching....these guys suck right now. Kluber and Pivetta Suck.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, the cheapness on upgrading the rotation is looking bad.

 

During the budget crunch phase of Bloom's time here, I can understand signing placeholders or bridge-type guys at $5-10M/1 year, but he was handed a decent wallet size, last winter and chose to spend less than 15% on the rotation. There is no longer "an excuse" for neglecting an area that has been a sore spot since 2020.

 

We can figure he felt maybe one guy from Mata, Walter and Murphy could help by midseason- that looks wrong.

 

We can figure he hoped 2 out of 3 from the old fogies (Kluber, Sale & Paxton) could be plusses- maybe Paxton and Sale work out.

 

We can figure he hoped he might only need one from Houck and Whitlock to be in the rotation and he'd shine- wrong and wrong.

 

We can figure he felt Pivetta could fill the 5 slot as well or better than most team's 5th starter- so far... wrong.

 

We can figure he felt maybe one from Bello or Crawinck might fill a rotation slot as a plus- he might get this one right.

 

Too many ifs, ands and buts.

 

When you look at the Yoshida, Duvall and Turner signings in a bubble, they all look like good ideas, and it was hard to expect Duran would come through, but focusing so much on hitting and not the rotation and defense looks to be a major blunder. I've still not given up on the rotation settling into a good 5, but it's taking too long, and too much trial and error leading to more errors than not is going to put us in too deep a hole. I'm encouraged by Sale, Bello and Paxton, as well as the return of Crawford and hopefully an improved Whitlock, but Bloom missed the boat. He can't blame the budget on this one.

[notin]

That very well might have been a major reason, but he might have also liked the match-ups better, too.

 

I doubt he Cora thought the top of the lineup Saturday was a better matchup for Jansen than the bottom of the lineup he faced on Friday…

[notin]

It's looking more likely the term "upside" was just Bloom-speak for "hey, maybe we'll get lucky" ...

 

I just can't stand the warped team-building approach of not investing in actual good pitching until the club is actually good.

 

That might not be the approach. The approach might simply be not spending nine figures and 6-7 years on pitchers who are likely only to be effective for two…