A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[cp176]

Three times in four years gets a solid F from me.

 

You don't think that he deserves at least a B because he has brought in some good potential major leaguers as well as building up the analytics department?

[cp176]

It’s not like we’re know what his marching orders were.

 

Was he hired to win or to rebuild the farm and cut payroll?

 

Do you think JH knew that it was going to take a half a decade plus to really win again?

[Bellhorn04]

It’s not like we’re know what his marching orders were.

 

Was he hired to win or to rebuild the farm and cut payroll?

 

The question is why he was fired.

 

Since he failed at a) and succeeded at , it appears he was hired to do both.

 

Unless you think he was fired even though he did exactly what he was hired to do.

[notin]

The question is why he was fired.

 

Since he failed at a) and succeeded at , it appears he was hired to do both.

 

Unless you think he was fired even though he did exactly what he was hired to do.

 

Or his orders changed over time.

 

Not really fair to give the guy a bad grade off for the first 3 years, if, for example, farm and payroll were his top priority

Edited September 22, 2023 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Or his orders changed over time…

 

Which would mean the Sox owners are the real problem, which is certainly possible.

[Bellhorn04]

My guess is the owners thought Bloom could rebuild the farm, cut payroll and put together an MLB team that wins 85-90 games.

[notin]

Do you think JH knew that it was going to take a half a decade plus to really win again?

 

He bought a team that hasn’t won in 80 years. I’m sure the notion entered his mind…

[notin]

My guess is the owners thought Bloom could rebuild the farm, cut payroll and put together an MLB team that wins 85-90 games.

 

And he never did that, going over the first year and under the last two.

 

Hopefully they didn’t expect 85 wins in 2020…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

What if you went to a job interview, and the owners of the company gave this description of duties:

 

"We want you to reduce payroll, cut overhead, fire overpriced employees, replace them with unemployed journeymen at first-step minimum wage, and develop a training program for entry-level recruits. We understand productivity will initially suffer, but we'll pay you a million dollars for four years, with the outside chance you'll be retained if somehow you can make this look good..."

 

Would any applicant -- who has never held, but always aspired to, a position of such authority -- refuse or hold out for more money or years?

[notin]

What if you went to a job interview, and the owners of the company gave this description of duties:

 

"We want you to reduce payroll, cut overhead, fire overpriced employees, replace them with unemployed journeymen at first-step minimum wage, and develop a training program for entry-level recruits. We understand productivity will initially suffer, but we'll pay you a million dollars for four years, with the outside chance you'll be retained if somehow you can make this look good..."

 

Would any applicant -- who has never held, but always aspired to, a position of such authority -- refuse or hold out for more money or years?

 

I take initial offer and do it right now!! “What? $45,000? Sounds good but I can’t do any GMing between 9 and 5!!”

 

And let me tell you folks, after 4 years of me, you’ll be begging for Bloom back!

[moonslav59]

My guess is the owners thought Bloom could rebuild the farm, cut payroll and put together an MLB team that wins 85-90 games.

 

Or win 82-86 games.

 

As bad as things have looked the last 3 years, the actual team on paper was not your normal "last place team," either.

 

The division and strength of schedule played a factor in us winning 74-78 games vs 80-84, not that Bloom would surely still be here had we won 82 in '22 and '23.

 

I think the idea was that rebuilding the farm and foundation of the team was the major priority. Not trading anyone higher than Aldo Ramirez is pretty solid evidence that was the plan agreed upon by all that make these decisions. Signing only 1 year players for the first two years was another solid sign. However, the last two season's winter spending budgets increased, and I think they expected Bloom to cobble together teams that gave the fans the perception we could win and make the playoffs. That part hasn't come close in the last two years.

 

Fans are pissed. The blame game is a big part of our culture, and no way was JH going to fall on the sword. It had to be Bloom. He failed at a lower prioirty, but it was an important one enough to lose his job over it.

 

I wonder how Bloom will be judged, if his foundation goes on to do very good or great things. At some point, tomorrow will be the new "here and now" that so many care so much about.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I wonder how Bloom will be judged, if his foundation goes on to do very good or great things. At some point, tomorrow will be the new "here and now" that so many care so much about.

 

My guess is he'll be judged much the same as Ben is. Some will give him credit, others will continue to stress the last-place finishes, call him Coffee Boy or something similarly insulting...

 

Some of this stuff is pretty predictable.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

My guess is he'll be judged much the same as Ben is. Some will give him credit, others will continue to stress the last-place finishes, call him Coffee Boy or something similarly insulting...

 

Some of this stuff is pretty predictable.

 

But the insults won't be as pointed, and the metaphors will confuse, as our cognitive abilities fade. We'll call him Obama, caution against starting World War II, and confess to all sorts of crimes in order to defend past posts we've forgotten.

[moonslav59]

My guess is he'll be judged much the same as Ben is. Some will give him credit, others will continue to stress the last-place finishes, call him Coffee Boy or something similarly insulting...

 

Some of this stuff is pretty predictable.

 

To me, there are some major differences:

 

1) The foundation roster left to DD included many of the best players being Theo guys.

2) Many of the best prospects DD was handed by Ben were Theo prospects.

3) Many of the most highly regarded prospects Ben handed over to DD to trade have not amounted to squat. (It was DD that maximized their value by trading them that won us the ring and 3 first place finishes, not the fact that Ben gave DD a great farm.)

 

Yes, a lot of the foundation Bloom is handing over to the next guy are DD guys (Devers & Sale), and graduated prospects like Bello, Casas, Houck, Crawford and Duran, but the roster turnover in Bloom's 4 years is much more far-reaching:

 

Verdugo

Whitlock

Wong & McGuire

Winckowski , Bernardino and Kelly

Story & Yoshi

Schreiber & Refsnyder

Abreu, EValdez and Dham

Urias & Reyes

Jansen & martin

Duvall, Paxton and JT (gone, soon)

 

The 2024 rookies and top prospects is a healthy mix of both DD and Bloom kids:

 

DD: Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales, Mata, Dalbec, Bonaci, Castro, Paulino

Bloom: Abreu, Anthony, Teel, Mayer, Bleis, Cespedes, Zanetello, Yorke, Joh Garcia, Drohan, Meidroth, Romero, Hickey, Gambrell, Jordan, Anderson, Monegro

 

I think it's safe to say the Bloom group is stronger than the DD group, here. I'm not sure how the DD farm was stacked, as in Ben vs Theo top prospects, but I seem to recall the best ones were Theo's.

[Bellhorn04]

The thing is, moon, most fans don't examine things in the kind of detail you do. They keep things a little simpler for themselves, you might say.

[sk7326]

To me, there are some major differences:

 

1) The foundation roster left to DD included many of the best players being Theo guys.

2) Many of the best prospects DD was handed by Ben were Theo prospects.

3) Many of the most highly regarded prospects Ben handed over to DD to trade have not amounted to squat. (It was DD that maximized their value by trading them that won us the ring and 3 first place finishes, not the fact that Ben gave DD a great farm.)

 

Yes, a lot of the foundation Bloom is handing over to the next guy are DD guys (Devers & Sale), and graduated prospects like Bello, Casas, Houck, Crawford and Duran, but the roster turnover in Bloom's 4 years is much more far-reaching:

 

Verdugo

Whitlock

Wong & McGuire

Winckowski , Bernardino and Kelly

Story & Yoshi

Schreiber & Refsnyder

Abreu, EValdez and Dham

Urias & Reyes

Jansen & martin

Duvall, Paxton and JT (gone, soon)

 

The 2024 rookies and top prospects is a healthy mix of both DD and Bloom kids:

 

DD: Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales, Mata, Dalbec, Bonaci, Castro, Paulino

Bloom: Abreu, Anthony, Teel, Mayer, Bleis, Cespedes, Zanetello, Yorke, Joh Garcia, Drohan, Meidroth, Romero, Hickey, Gambrell, Jordan, Anderson, Monegro

 

I think it's safe to say the Bloom group is stronger than the DD group, here. I'm not sure how the DD farm was stacked, as in Ben vs Theo top prospects, but I seem to recall the best ones were Theo's.

 

I think if you wanted to say that - qualitatively - Dombrowski and Bloom did about the same level (I'd say DD did a better job, but not by much), that'd be fair. They both had mandates which they executed. They both were done dirty somewhat by ownership for the (somewhat) inevitable results of executing the respective mandate.

 

Now I think the consequences of what Dombrowski did were somewhat unavoidable - the farm system was emptied to create a big league wagon ... Bloom probably could have kept the big league club more viable by actually investing in pitching and a little bit of defense.

[moonslav59]

The thing is, moon, most fans don't examine things in the kind of detail you do. They keep things a little simpler for themselves, you might say.

 

I get that, but this concept is not complex. It's also been explained in simple terms, over and over, and some choose to just ignore it. It's all reduced to "We lost under you: you suck."

 

I also think there is an underlying "spoiled" aspect to it all. Despite the fact that 1-15 teams are spending and trying hard to win, if we can't win every year, someone has to be the fall guy. We deserve to win. When we don't, heads need to roll.

 

A smaller part of it might be the avoidance of admitting they were wrong about the "impending cliff" debate of 5-6 years ago. (Yes, I said the naughty word.) If they damit Bloom was dealt a rotten hand, it's an admission of being wrong, before.

 

This is not an excuse for Bloom not getting the team to better records in 2022 and 2023. I feel he should have. In some cases, I thought he did, but I turned out to be very wrong. I'm not trying to come off as holier than thou. I've been as wrong as anybody, if not more so.

[Dipre]

Yeah Sox fans have been spoiled by the very ownership they take every opportunity to bury.

[Duran Is The Man]

Strawman.

 

I did not give him a B or B-. I gave him a C to C-, maybe a C+ after we see what happens with his guys.

 

Based on the foundation and farm he left the next guy weighing against the D he gets for 2022 and 2023's MLB teams, it's about a C.

 

How is saying his draft picks are freakin awful anything but stand up comedy?

 

AYFKM?????

 

i didn't say the draft picks were awful, Moon. i said giving him a high grade for FINISHING LAST and getting high draft picks was wrong.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah Sox fans have been spoiled by the very ownership they take every opportunity to bury.

 

I partially disagree. Sox ownership has delivered 4 titles, which is awesome. But Sox fans have a right to complain about the 2022 and 2023 teams. The fans are the ones who ultimately pay for everything and who have made Henry's franchise worth 4.5 billion. Why should they keep paying the highest ticket prices in baseball to watch sub-.500 teams while Henry cuts payroll and puts more money in his pocket? Should they just be pom-pom wavers?

[Duran Is The Man]

It’s not like we’re know what his marching orders were.

 

Was he hired to win or to rebuild the farm and cut payroll?

 

 

you're right. if he was hired to tank the franchise to improve their draft picks then sure, he should be graded higher.

[Dipre]

I partially disagree. Sox ownership has delivered 4 titles, which is awesome. But Sox fans have a right to complain about the 2022 and 2023 teams. The fans are the ones who ultimately pay for everything and who have made Henry's franchise worth 4.5 billion. Why should they keep paying the highest ticket prices in baseball to watch sub-.500 teams while Henry cuts payroll and puts more money in his pocket? Should they just be pom-pom wavers?

 

Not my point at all. Complaining about the bottom line results is Ok, and mostly on Bloom, as this team could have achieved significantly better results with the same investment in payroll. But there's a large portion of this fanbase that has taken the Yankee fan "Championship or bust mentality", and another portion of the fanbase who complains about every little thing even during winning seasons. Am I wrong?

[moonslav59]

i didn't say the draft picks were awful, Moon.

 

You said this on post #9354:

 

... i don't think he should get a higher grade due to better draft picks because they were so freakin' awful.

 

Maybe you meant the "they" to refer to the team, but the correct literal meaning would be that the "they" was referring to the last noun, which was "draft picks."

 

If you meant the team, then it's not comedy.

[moonslav59]

Yeah Sox fans have been spoiled by the very ownership they take every opportunity to bury.

 

Let's go back to the glory days before JH!

 

LMAO!

 

[Bellhorn04]

Not my point at all. Complaining about the bottom line results is Ok, and mostly on Bloom, as this team could have achieved significantly better results with the same investment in payroll. But there's a large portion of this fanbase that has taken the Yankee fan "Championship or bust mentality", and another portion of the fanbase who complains about every little thing even during winning seasons. Am I wrong?

 

No, you're not wrong. But my expectations of people in general, and sports fans in particular, are fairly low. You're going to have a modest percentage of reasonable ones and that's about it.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's go back to the glory days before JH!

 

LMAO!

 

 

It's a long term relationship. If your spouse was nice to you for 15 years, but is mean to you now, the Recency Effect is pretty strong...

[sk7326]

Not my point at all. Complaining about the bottom line results is Ok, and mostly on Bloom, as this team could have achieved significantly better results with the same investment in payroll. But there's a large portion of this fanbase that has taken the Yankee fan "Championship or bust mentality", and another portion of the fanbase who complains about every little thing even during winning seasons. Am I wrong?

 

This has been the best ownership in Red Sox history. But it does seem like the last decade has been more in spite of ownership than because of.

 

There will always be whiners in the fan base - and Championship or Bust is a foolhardy mentality particularly in baseball fandom. But the Red Sox are one of the big kids on the block, and they charge big boy prices to the fans - and fans are totally justified in expecting the franchise to act like one of the big kids.

[Duran Is The Man]

You said this on post #9354:

 

... i don't think he should get a higher grade due to better draft picks because they were so freakin' awful.

 

Maybe you meant the "they" to refer to the team, but the correct literal meaning would be that the "they" was referring to the last noun, which was "draft picks."

 

If you meant the team, then it's not comedy.

 

ok, i worded it poorly, but yes, i meant the team was awful, not the draft picks. my bad. we did get some nice draft picks. i'm really excited about Teel.

[moonslav59]

ok, i worded it poorly, but yes, i meant the team was awful, not the draft picks. my bad. we did get some nice draft picks. i'm really excited about Teel.

 

Ok. it's all good.

 

I still think building up the farm and foundation has to count for enough to move him off an "F." I think even a D or D- is a bit harsh, given the circumstances, but I'm fine with other having different opinions and priorities.

 

C+ to D+ seems to be the range I find acceptable, but that's just me. I'd be more inclined to accept a B- than a D or D-.

[moonslav59]

It's a long term relationship. If your spouse was nice to you for 15 years, but is mean to you now, the Recency Effect is pretty strong...

 

No doubt, but I'd rather stay with my current "mean wife" than go back to my ex.

 

LOL