JBJ DFAed

[FredLynn]

Theo - 2 WS

Ben - 1 WS

DD - 1 WS

Bloom - 0 WS

 

Ben and DD got the Sox over the hump. Bloom has yet to do it and chances are good that he won't. DD got them to back to back to back AL East titles. It was a great run. I wish he had re-signed Mookie instead of Sale/Eovaldi, but here we are.

 

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

[illinoisredsox]

fair enough.

 

I’m sticking with 100:1.

 

Oh, that's probably not too far off, because the odds with any minor leaguer are pretty high.

 

The fact that he is struggling a bit at AA might be a good thing. It will reveal a lot about his makeup.

[mvp 78]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

 

That's one way to put it.

[a700hitter]

,

Keep in mind that Hosmer and Pham are just older plug-ins for gaping holes in the lineup, not part of a sustainable competitive team for 2023-2025. These holes were identifiable during the winter '21-'22 but the CBA BS prevented more timely moves. If accurate, Bloom then let his lack of urgency defer any action. He thought Kike could play a season and that Dalbec had turned a corner, and Barnes might get his head straight. Oh and Chris Sale might have actually pitched at some point.

 

Not an apologist for Bloom, but the actual players did about all they could to mess up 2022.

The “actual players”? Would those include the reliable relief arms that Bloom did not acquire, the starting pitchers who were identified as TBA in our rotation, and the first baseman and RFer that he never acquired? If so, I agree. These were all known needs in the offseason and for the first 104 games of 2022.

[JDavis76]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

 

I see this posted on here quite often.

 

Are there any links I can read that show where henry stated this?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Elktonnick]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

No one wanted him. Couldn’t even get Gym equipment for him.

 

Pretty much puts JBJ in the company of JD.

[illinoisredsox]

JBJ has a better ERA than Connor Seabold and Darwinizon Hernandez

[a700hitter]

Pretty much puts JBJ in the company of JD.

Probably right. I don’t think too many of our players had much trade value.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

JBJ has a better ERA than Connor Seabold and Darwinizon Hernandez

 

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

Edited August 4, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

 

Of course, that could describe 99% of all the MLB pitchers.

[vegasbob]

,The “actual players”? Would those include the reliable relief arms that Bloom did not acquire, the starting pitchers who were identified as TBA in our rotation, and the first baseman and RFer that he never acquired? If so, I agree. These were all known needs in the offseason and for the first 104 games of 2022.

 

No, the "actual players" were those who broke camp in April, crapped all over themselves, with a few exceptions, in April-May, then made an amazing run in June only to fall back into the wishing well in July, maybe to surface again in August, who knows.

 

Inconsistency from the FO to the field in 2022. You are right--- the needs were well known all winter while waiting on the CBA and they displayed themselves like bright shiny objects through many of those 104 games, half of which were won/half lost. Probably an achievement in itself given the lack of performance in the lower half of the lineup and the amazing list of significant IL time for key guys.

[Maxbialystock]

Another Bloom gem. Bloom thinks getting prospects back as some do on here was a success. Not all minor leaguers are prospects. Lots of minor leaguers are just that minor leaguers, and that’s the bottom line.

 

Interesting. I always thought that all major leaguers, even the best ones, came from the minor leagues. I also thought that the pursuit and accumulation of prospects was driven not only by a search for talent, but inexpensive talent at that.

 

We all remember DD's trades/purchases for prime pitching that made the 2018 wonder-season possible. The Sox team payroll was the highest in MLB that season. But we should also remember that Betts, Beni, Bogey, JBJ, Holt--5 of the 6 highest lineup WAR's for the 2018 Sox--had not yet reached free agency. I left out Devers, who played in 121 games, hit 21 dingers (3d most on the Sox), drove in 66 runs (4th most), etc because his combined WAR, including his weak defense, was just 0.0. That Sox team lead MLB in runs scored with 876 (2d best was 818), and OPS with .792 (2d best was .766)--a juggernaut that relied very heavily on players who were not simply bought from other teams once they'd reached free agency.

 

The stars of the Sox 2018 pitching staff, on the other hand, was basically bought by DD: Sale (WAR 6.9), Price (WAR 4.4), Porcello (WAR 3.1), and Kimbrel (WAR 2.3). Here we are in 2022 and we're still paying for Sale ($30M) and Price ($16M) who this year have contributed a combined WAR of +0.1 to the Sox campaign.

[illinoisredsox]

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

 

Nah, just attempting a little (probably very little) levity.

 

Plus, you have to admit, he's a pretty good hitting pitcher.

[Bellhorn04]

He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

 

And that does seem credible.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Nah, just attempting a little (probably very little) levity.

 

Plus, you have to admit, he's a pretty good hitting pitcher.

 

In regards to that JBJ was almost as good a hitter as Porcello was.

Btw, your levity was much better than just little.

Edited August 4, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[Maxbialystock]

He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

 

Meh. John Henry is far and away the best owner the Sox have ever had, so he had to be doing something right on hiring and firing.

 

About the managers. Grady Little should have been fired. No one disputes that today. Francona wasn't fired. His contract was not renewed after the 2011 season because the Sox completely disintegrated in September at the same time it was discovered that some of the starters were drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. While I understand why that happened, it's now obvious that replacing Francona with Bobby Valentine was ill-advised. Then came Farrell, who won the WS in his first season, 2013, but thereafter the Sox didn't look so hot, especially in the 2016 and 2017 postseasons. I give DD lots of credit for firing Farrell and hiring Alex Cora, who looks pretty good so far.

 

As for GM's, Epstein left for a sweetheart offer from the Cubs. Cherington may have been OK overall--many here have said so--but signing Sandoval and HanRam rankled--as did not keeping Lester. DD did what he was hired to do--spent like a drunken sailor to fix the pitching, which resulted in the best season the Sox ever had.

 

But I think JH decided that he preferred a different approach, and it is absolutely unarguable that the best system in MLB for finding and developing good (but not expensive) talent that can compete in the toughest division in MLB belongs to the Rays. No other team comes close in terms of salary cost per wins. Chaim Bloom was either the architect of that system or one of them.

 

It remains to be seen whether Chaim can adapt what he knows best to the very different situation of the Sox.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

He gave him a shot and it didn’t work out. I am among the few that didn’t mind this deal, as it was done for defensive purposes as well as prospects.

 

As there was clearly no plan to hold him for next season, I’d rather see the GM admit this as opposed to clinging to a mistake. But the biggest downside is it leaves Duran with a stranglehold on CF until Kike returns…

 

Thanks for saying that.

[moonslav59]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

 

True, but the JBJ deal was a chosen extra "hobble."

[oldtimer]

Moves should have been made last offseason.

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

[Elktonnick]

Meh. John Henry is far and away the best owner the Sox have ever had, so he had to be doing something right on hiring and firing.

 

About the managers. Grady Little should have been fired. No one disputes that today. Francona wasn't fired. His contract was not renewed after the 2011 season because the Sox completely disintegrated in September at the same time it was discovered that some of the starters were drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. While I understand why that happened, it's now obvious that replacing Francona with Bobby Valentine was ill-advised. Then came Farrell, who won the WS in his first season, 2013, but thereafter the Sox didn't look so hot, especially in the 2016 and 2017 postseasons. I give DD lots of credit for firing Farrell and hiring Alex Cora, who looks pretty good so far.

 

As for GM's, Epstein left for a sweetheart offer from the Cubs. Cherington may have been OK overall--many here have said so--but signing Sandoval and HanRam rankled--as did not keeping Lester. DD did what he was hired to do--spent like a drunken sailor to fix the pitching, which resulted in the best season the Sox ever had.

 

But I think JH decided that he preferred a different approach, and it is absolutely unarguable that the best system in MLB for finding and developing good (but not expensive) talent that can compete in the toughest division in MLB belongs to the Rays. No other team comes close in terms of salary cost per wins. Chaim Bloom was either the architect of that system or one of them.

 

It remains to be seen whether Chaim can adapt what he knows best to the very different situation of the Sox.

 

I can not generally disagree with anything you wrote except to as it relates to Henry's non existent interpersonal skills.

 

Otherwise what you wrote is not in any way at variance with what I wrote.

While it may be technically true that Henry did not fire Franconia the way the Red Sox handled his leaving left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Franconia still resents the way it went down.

The fact is after DDs departure Gammons , Tom Verducci, John Heyman et al were all over the MLB network and elsewhere talking about the fact that the way Henry let DD go and the fact that Boston has gone through so many successful GMs and managers in such a short time meant that there was a great deal of reluctance in the industry to work for Henry. Even Henry's employee Dan Shaughnessey was critical of the way DDs departure was handled calling it an embarrassment for the club.

[FredLynn]

True, but the JBJ deal was a chosen extra "hobble."

 

That was dumb for sure. But it wasn’t by itself the last nail in the coffin. There were a lot of mistakes starting with getting Bradley. Not addressing the problems at 1B and OF promptly. Henry’s edict to get costs down, Cora losing control of the team as evidenced by the brain dead baseball they are playing for months….etc

Edited August 4, 2022 by FredLynn

[Old Red]

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

 

Bingo.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Just watched Gallo strike out for the Dodgers. Surprising the Yankems could trade that POS and the SOX couldn't trade JD or JBJ.

[Elktonnick]

Just watched Gallo strike out for the Dodgers. Surprising the Yankems could trade that POS and the SOX couldn't trade JD or JBJ.

 

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

 

Maybe Bloom should have just asked for two prospects, regardless of tier.

[moonslav59]

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

 

I thought 1B was addressed in the winter. Dalbec and Shaw looked decent and Casas was expected to be ready early, if needed.

 

Now, once the middle of May and June rolled around, how easy was it to acquire a decent 1Bman?

 

How long a leash should Dalbec have been given, after seein g what happened in 2021?

[FredLynn]

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

 

I heard they were asking for two little league prospects and got no takers.

[a700hitter]

No, the "actual players" were those who broke camp in April, crapped all over themselves, with a few exceptions, in April-May, then made an amazing run in June only to fall back into the wishing well in July, maybe to surface again in August, who knows.

 

Inconsistency from the FO to the field in 2022. You are right--- the needs were well known all winter while waiting on the CBA and they displayed themselves like bright shiny objects through many of those 104 games, half of which were won/half lost. Probably an achievement in itself given the lack of performance in the lower half of the lineup and the amazing list of significant IL time for key guys.

Those would be the inadequate players that he brought north from camp like Dalbec and Franchy and numerous pitchers in the pen and the rotation who don’t belong on any major league roster, and whose fault was it for bringing north such inadequate players.

[Elktonnick]

I heard they were asking for two little league prospects and got no takers.

No little leaguers wanted to play for Bloom is the way I heard it.