A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[Bellhorn04]

Oh no, don't say "hate," because he never used those exact words. He shows so much love towards Henry, Kennedy, Bloom, Cora, Dalbec, Story, Kike, Cordero, Duran & Downs, Stinkin' Winkin, Sale, Pivetta, Barnes, Houck and on and on... Only Swihart's Ghost showed more disdain towards Sox players and management.

 

Well, you're right, but he's certainly not alone in pointing out which players are sucking...

[mvp 78]

Old Red's schtick is that he loves the Red Sox but hates Bloom.

 

It's not an unreasonable take.

[mvp 78]

I'm not deflecting blame to anyone. I'd prefer not to even be obsessed with the whole notion of blame.

 

There's always a portion of the Blame Pie that has to be handed out. That's how we have been conditioned by talk radio in this market.

[mvp 78]

Bloom vs Dombrowski debates are futile. Even if their situations were reversed -- and their hirings were switched in time -- there's no reason to believe they wouldn't act and operate like themselves.

 

Alternative universe, offseason 2018: Red Sox GM Chaim Bloom passes on paying $20 million per year for DH JD Martinez and another $7.5M for 1B Keith Moreland, and instead signs the following on one-year deals: Lucas Duda, 37, $3.5M, Curtis Granderson, 41, $5M, and Mark Reynolds, 39, $750,000. Bloom was also able to use the savings to land starting pitcher Trevor Cahill, 34, for $1.26M, and reliever Jesse Chavez, 39, for $1.6M. After the season, when Boston finished two wins from the World Series, Bloom was ordered by his bosses to lock-up Mookie Betts for life with a $366 million pact. He then traded shortstop Xander Bogaerts to LA for Verdugo, Wong, and pitchers Mitch White and Yadier Alvarez.

 

Alt. U, offseason 2023: GM Dombrowski celebrated another Red Sox title by signing World Series hero Mike Wacha to a three-year, $60 million dollar contract. Dombro also extended Raffy Devers for 12 years at $376M, and landed free agent Zach Eflin for $50M, after the latter threatened to sign with Tampa. Dave hopes the addition of new shortstop Trea Turner will offset any ankle worries about Red Sox infielder Carlos Correa, who may take it easy this year by platooning at second base with either Turner or Javey Baez.

 

1. Having Mookie for his full career seems cool.

 

2. The Dombo alt history is hilarious. They have max deals for Javy Baez, Correa, Turner AND Devers! How? IDK! Henry wouldn't let Dombo even sign Betts without the other guys. How would he get all the others? Maybe in this fiction Dombo had Henry whacked? Is Betts around or no? MIKE Wacha as a World Series hero? Wow. Who are the other pitchers?

[mvp 78]

Oh no, don't say "hate," because he never used those exact words. He shows so much love towards Henry, Kennedy, Bloom, Cora, Dalbec, Story, Kike, Cordero, Duran & Downs, Stinkin' Winkin, Sale, Pivetta, Barnes, Houck and on and on... Only Swihart's Ghost showed more disdain towards Sox players and management.

 

Well, maybe some Yankee & Mariner fans, too.

 

So he doesn't like when players struggle or are hurt a lot? I'm shocked!

[mvp 78]

Well, you're right, but he's certainly not alone in pointing out which players are sucking...

 

I just have a funny feeling that if we had more mod activity around these parts that this beef would have been squashed a long time ago.

[moonslav59]

Well, you're right, but he's certainly not alone in pointing out which players are sucking...

 

We all do that to varying degrees.

Most of us don't assign disdainful nicknames.

Most of us don't attack more members of the Sox than they praise.

 

And, apparently, the majority matters most.

 

[moonslav59]

There's always a portion of the Blame Pie that has to be handed out. That's how we have been conditioned by talk radio in this market.

 

Bloom has certainly done enough head-scratchingly bad moves and enough just plain bad moves to warrant criticism. It's the blaming of anything and everything on him that brings out the defending posts.

 

It's the lack of any context usage, so often, that creates a situation where it looks like those that are responding are viewed as never seeing any fault in Bloom (and JH for that matter.)

 

Bloom has made a lot of mistakes, as most GMs do, especially those in situations where they have to make so many, each year. JH has made some financial decisions that upset the high ticket-paying fanbase and fans that expect a championship caliber team, every year. It's all understandable. It's the degree of disdain and criticism, that to me, goes over the top and then some, but hey, that's just me. Apparently, I'm in a small minority of Sox Nation.

[Bellhorn04]

We all do that to varying degrees.

Most of us don't assign disdainful nicknames.

Most of us don't attack more members of the Sox than they praise.

 

Old Red uses colorful names like Stinkin Winkin. You're more like a polite assassin - this guy shouldn't be playing so much, this guy should be DFA'd, that guy should be traded...

[moonslav59]

Old Red uses colorful names like Stinkin Winkin. You're more like a polite assassin - this guy shouldn't be playing so much, this guy should be DFA'd, that guy should be traded...

 

I wouldn't say I'm "polite," but to me, it comes down to the sheer number of players and Sox personnel some posters attack, mercilessly. A colorful name, here and there is funny, and Winckowski did not do much to deserve any praise. I get that. We've almost all screamed for Brasier & Ort to be DFA's. We've all pretty muched used the word "sucked" on a player here and there, but to me, if you bash about half of your team and management, non-stop, I question the claim that you are "saying with the team to the end."

 

I don't expect fans to blindly praise players doing nothing praiseworthy, but to me, assigning disdainful nicknames to players who are just getting their feet wet, as well as vets like Kike & Story, I think it goes too far,

 

I clearly have a different view than most here, so maybe I'm missing something important. It's hard to gauge motives and feelings in print form, so maybe I'm reading too much into some things posters say out of frustration and anger, but it's one thing to hurl an insult in a game thread than to say a player is Stinkin' Winkin" to a player with just 70 IP under his belt, in the month of February.

Edited February 6, 2023 by moonslav59

[Nick]

Moon, I need a favor. Can you tell me our opening day roster? Just your opinion. Don't worry. I won't pull a Red on you.

[mvp 78]

Bloom has certainly done enough head-scratchingly bad moves and enough just plain bad moves to warrant criticism. It's the blaming of anything and everything on him that brings out the defending posts.

 

So? You're not going to change his mind. Why get upset about the nicknames? Why constantly defend Bloom when you admit he's made bad moves? Just move on and find another post to talk about.

[harmony]

Oh no, don't say "hate," because he never used those exact words. He shows so much love towards Henry, Kennedy, Bloom, Cora, Dalbec, Story, Kike, Cordero, Duran & Downs, Stinkin' Winkin, Sale, Pivetta, Barnes, Houck and on and on... Only Swihart's Ghost showed more disdain towards Sox players and management.

 

Well, maybe some Yankee & Mariner fans, too.

The Red Sox offseason has been puzzling.

 

No one has been blamed but this “realistic” thread invites responses to the posted optimism.

[moonslav59]

Moon, I need a favor. Can you tell me our opening day roster? Just your opinion. Don't worry. I won't pull a Red on you.

 

It depends on Mondesi, Sale and Paxton's health, but assuming all are ready...

 

1. Yoshida LF

2. Kike SS/2B

3. Devers 3B

4. Turner DH

5. Casas 1B

6. Verdugo RF

7. Duvall CF

8. Arroyo 2B/Mondesi SS

9. McGuire C

Bench: Wong C, Refsnyder OF, EValdez 2B/1B/DH or Duran OF (I'd take EValdez)

 

SP1. Sale

SP2. Kluber

SP3. Whitlock

SP4. Bello

SP5. Pivetta

SP6. Paxton

 

RP1. Jansen

RP2. Martin

RP3. Houck

RP4. Schreiber

RP5. Rodriguez

RP6. Brasier

RP7. Bleier

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I wouldn't say I'm "polite," but to me, it comes down to the sheer number of players and Sox personnel some posters attack, mercilessly. A colorful name, here and there is funny, and Winckowski did not do much to deserve any praise. I get that. We've almost all screamed for Brasier & Ort to be DFA's. We've all pretty muched used the word "sucked" on a player here and there, but to me, if you bash about half of your team and management, non-stop, I question the claim that you are "saying with the team to the end."

 

I don't expect fans to blindly praise players doing nothing praiseworthy, but to me, assigning disdainful nicknames to players who are just getting their feet wet, as well as vets like Kike & Story, I think it goes too far,

 

I clearly have a different view than most here, so maybe I'm missing something important. It's hard to gauge motives and feelings in print form, so maybe I'm reading too much into some things posters say out of frustration and anger, but it's one thing to hurl an insult in a game thread than to say a player is Stinkin' Winkin" to a player with just 70 IP under his belt, in the month of February.

 

Maybe fans are more protective of their homegrown heroes than replacements brought in from the outside.

 

However, Verdugo -- a decent player, but not a star -- maybe gets a pass from the saner fans who realize nobody can replace a Hall of Famer.

 

Story, though he may be better than Verdugo, gets more grief because 1. most suspect he was recruited specifically to "force" Bogaerts out; 2. Story's first year at the plate for the most part looked like a righty Carl Crawford (that's all the name-calling I got today).

[moonslav59]

So? You're not going to change his mind. Why get upset about the nicknames? Why constantly defend Bloom when you admit he's made bad moves? Just move on and find another post to talk about.

 

I'm not upset about the nicknames.

 

I counter points I disagree with, like everyone else. If someone said Bloom never makes any mistakes 24/7, I'd counter them, too. I don't see much of that, though.

 

Many of the criticisms of Bloom are well founded, and I've been highly critical of many of his moves, yet I'm viewed as being a Bloom apologist and a DD basher, when I don't see myself as being close to either of those two things.

 

I have no issues with what DD did, and have no problems with the consequences of some of his actions. I don't even blame him for extending Sale, but that doesn't mean I don't factor in Sale's budget hit and near zero production under Bloom's watch. I know DD made some mistakes, but he did a great job, so I'm glad he was our GM. That does not change the facts about the low-end loaded farm he left Bloom. It was worth it, to me, but I don't ignore it happened, so DD can be viewed as the perfect saint.

 

Any GM who stepped into the situation the Sox were in after 2019 would have had their hands full, regardless of some nice stars headlining the roster. 5 stars, some of them always hurt or sputtering as they moved out of prime was not enough to expect winning records out of the gate. Cutting $60M (basically Betts, half-Price and Porcello) is not something any GM can build on. Having just Houck join the roster from the farm, after Devers in the summer of 2017 is a crippling fact. Okay, I've repeated it ad nauseam, but when you add that to the rest, the task was daunting. I hardly hear a peep about that from the Bloom bashers. They look only at records, ticket prices and the fact that we still had a high budget, despite much of it being Sale, ERod, Pedey and other inherited players who had up and down years from 2020-2022.

 

The other context I think is neglected if not totally ignored is what should be expected from FA signings in the $1M to $10M range. To think a GM could hit more than they miss, when having to spend on mostly players between $1M and 7M is laughable.

 

No, I won't change their mind, but I will speak up, when I think their points lack context or logic.

 

 

 

I'm far from perfect and have my obsessions, too. I try to apologize when I go too far and admit when I have been wrong.

[moonslav59]

Maybe fans are more protective of their homegrown heroes than replacements brought in from the outside.

 

However, Verdugo -- a decent player, but not a star -- maybe gets a pass from the saner fans who realize nobody can replace a Hall of Famer.

 

Story, though he may be better than Verdugo, gets more grief because 1. most suspect he was recruited specifically to "force" Bogaerts out; 2. Story's first year at the plate for the most part looked like a righty Carl Crawford (that's all the name-calling I got today).

 

I totally understand being more attached to homegrown players. It was a wonderful time, when we were watching Lester, Betts, Bogey, JBJ and later Devers, as well as many good role players, all on the same team.

 

This year's team is barely recognizable, and most of our returning good players are at different positions, now (Kike at SS, Dugo in RF, Whitlock in the rotation and Houck still TBD'd.) It's hard to feel close attachments to the players, which is really the best part of being a fan.

 

I will say, many of the winning teams of the past were near total rehauls. Even the 2007 team was very different from 2004's. 2013 was a massive overhaul from even 2012. 2018 had little left over from 2013, but all had their fair share of homegrown players.

 

I find it hard to blame Bloom for the lack of homnegrowners. The Betts trade was forced, and the Bogey price tag may have been too high for JH to accept. The fact that Houck is the only homegrown player worth mentioning since Devers is not something I pin on Bloom, either.

 

In 3-4 years, we can talk about Bloom's bounty or lack of homegrowners. Just like we are just now, seeing or are about to see the fruits of DD's homegrowners.

 

[moonslav59]

It depends on Mondesi, Sale and Paxton's health, but assuming all are ready...

 

1. Yoshida LF

2. Kike SS/2B

3. Devers 3B

4. Turner DH

5. Casas 1B

6. Verdugo RF

7. Duvall CF

8. Arroyo 2B/Mondesi SS

9. McGuire C

Bench: Wong C, Refsnyder OF, EValdez 2B/1B/DH or Duran OF (I'd take EValdez)

 

SP1. Sale

SP2. Kluber

SP3. Whitlock

SP4. Bello

SP5. Pivetta

SP6. Paxton

 

RP1. Jansen

RP2. Martin

RP3. Houck

RP4. Schreiber

RP5. Rodriguez

RP6. Brasier

RP7. Bleier

 

If Mondesi is out, as expected, I think EValdez will be on the bench and Dalbec or Duran fight for the 26th slot. Maybe they give Hamilton the IF depth slot.

[notin]

If Mondesi is out, as expected, I think EValdez will be on the bench and Dalbec or Duran fight for the 26th slot. Maybe they give Hamilton the IF depth slot.

 

Also possible that Tapia gets placed on the 40 man roster once Story is eligible for the 60 day IL

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not upset about the nicknames.

 

I counter points I disagree with, like everyone else. If someone said Bloom never makes any mistakes 24/7, I'd counter them, too. I don't see much of that, though.

 

Many of the criticisms of Bloom are well founded, and I've been highly critical of many of his moves, yet I'm viewed as being a Bloom apologist and a DD basher, when I don't see myself as being close to either of those two things.

 

I have no issues with what DD did, and have no problems with the consequences of some of his actions. I don't even blame him for extending Sale, but that doesn't mean I don't factor in Sale's budget hit and near zero production under Bloom's watch. I know DD made some mistakes, but he did a great job, so I'm glad he was our GM. That does not change the facts about the low-end loaded farm he left Bloom. It was worth it, to me, but I don't ignore it happened, so DD can be viewed as the perfect saint.

 

Any GM who stepped into the situation the Sox were in after 2019 would have had their hands full, regardless of some nice stars headlining the roster. 5 stars, some of them always hurt or sputtering as they moved out of prime was not enough to expect winning records out of the gate. Cutting $60M (basically Betts, half-Price and Porcello) is not something any GM can build on. Having just Houck join the roster from the farm, after Devers in the summer of 2017 is a crippling fact. Okay, I've repeated it ad nauseam, but when you add that to the rest, the task was daunting. I hardly hear a peep about that from the Bloom bashers. They look only at records, ticket prices and the fact that we still had a high budget, despite much of it being Sale, ERod, Pedey and other inherited players who had up and down years from 2020-2022.

 

The other context I think is neglected if not totally ignored is what should be expected from FA signings in the $1M to $10M range. To think a GM could hit more than they miss, when having to spend on mostly players between $1M and 7M is laughable.

 

No, I won't change their mind, but I will speak up, when I think their points lack context or logic.

 

 

 

I'm far from perfect and have my obsessions, too. I try to apologize when I go too far and admit when I have been wrong.

 

But you and Old Red keep trading personal insults. You tell him to go be a Jays fan and things like that. All it does is keep the cycle of insults going.

[moonslav59]

Also possible that Tapia gets placed on the 40 man roster once Story is eligible for the 60 day IL

 

We may need an IF'er more- Niko Goodrum? (soxprospects projects him on the 26.)

[moonslav59]

But you and Old Red keep trading personal insults. You tell him to go be a Jays fan and things like that. All it does is keep the cycle of insults going.

 

No doubt, I keep the ball rolling.

 

I just can't see someone who shows such disdain for over half of the people who are the Red Sox as someone "staying with the team to the end."

 

I'm not saying giving up on the team in July is much better, but I still watched every game afterwards and cheered for every player, even Brasier and Duran. I might say a few suck or should be DFA'd, but not half. I wouldn't nickname a rookie "Stinkin'" either. It's more about the sheer number than a bad name here and there.

 

People show their love in different ways, I guess. I just don't see being so overly critical as being a good fan, but I know that is just my twisted idea of what being a fan means. To each his own. I love all my sisters and parents but often say bad things to them.

[mvp 78]

But you and Old Red keep trading personal insults. You tell him to go be a Jays fan and things like that. All it does is keep the cycle of insults going.

 

Yup.

[Nick]

If Mondesi is out, as expected, I think EValdez will be on the bench and Dalbec or Duran fight for the 26th slot. Maybe they give Hamilton the IF depth slot.

 

I made slight adjustment to Moon's opening roster and went with 25 man roster.

 

I just wanted to do a little mental exercise on constructing a team.

To be absolutely cheap, I need following break out of contracts.

 

4 players in Arb 3 year (say $10M/yr)

4 players in Arb 2 year (say $5M/yr)

4 players in Arb 1 year (say $3M/yr)

4 players in 3rd year

4 players in 2nd year

4 players in 1st year

1 player named Devers....life-time

contract

 

At the conclusion of each year I would simply trade or let go of Arb 3 players and replenish them with 4 rookies.

 

We will have 4 players with 6 years of team control and I think it's a pretty good 'class'.....Casas, Whitlock, Bello and Wong.

 

We only have 2 players with 5 years of team control, Yoshida and Houck

 

We then have 2 players with 4 years of team control, Schreiber and Story (24-27)

 

We have 9 players with 2 years of team control and 5 with just one.

 

The point being Bloom has tons of work to do over the next couple of years to extend/replace 14 players. The key being quality of replacement has to be better.

 

I'm not sure you can consistently win with as much turnover as we've had recently.

 

At some point, Bloom should have a team put together that has some stability and obviously the one that can get into the playoffs.

 

I'm not sure we're there yet.

[mvp 78]

No doubt, I keep the ball rolling.

 

I just can't see someone who shows such disdain for over half of the people who are the Red Sox as someone "staying with the team to the end."

 

So yeah, you're at fault 100%. Critiquing someone else's fandom is just weird behavior.

[jad]

But you and Old Red keep trading personal insults. You tell him to go be a Jays fan and things like that. All it does is keep the cycle of insults going.

 

Either one of them can stop this instantly by not participating in a back-and-forth that no one reads but themselves. So apparently, each of them increases their personal sense of self-worth (not shared by anyone) by continuing.

[moonslav59]

So yeah, you're at fault 100%. Critiquing someone else's fandom is just weird behavior.

 

Guilty as charged.

 

I still think it's weird than any fans throws shadows on over half an organization.

[moonslav59]

I made slight adjustment to Moon's opening roster and went with 25 man roster.

 

I just wanted to do a little mental exercise on constructing a team.

To be absolutely cheap, I need following break out of contracts.

 

4 players in Arb 3 year (say $10M/yr)

4 players in Arb 2 year (say $5M/yr)

4 players in Arb 1 year (say $3M/yr)

4 players in 3rd year

4 players in 2nd year

4 players in 1st year

1 player named Devers....life-time

contract

 

At the conclusion of each year I would simply trade or let go of Arb 3 players and replenish them with 4 rookies.

 

We will have 4 players with 6 years of team control and I think it's a pretty good 'class'.....Casas, Whitlock, Bello and Wong.

 

We only have 2 players with 5 years of team control, Yoshida and Houck

 

We then have 2 players with 4 years of team control, Schreiber and Story (24-27)

 

We have 9 players with 2 years of team control and 5 with just one.

 

The point being Bloom has tons of work to do over the next couple of years to extend/replace 14 players. The key being quality of replacement has to be better.

 

I'm not sure you can consistently win with as much turnover as we've had recently.

 

At some point, Bloom should have a team put together that has some stability and obviously the one that can get into the playoffs.

 

I'm not sure we're there yet.

 

I had really hoped we'd take the $80-90M for this winter's spending budget and add just 5-6 players. More quality over quantity, but I guess Bloom & Co. felt we needed more depth.

 

I think, going forward, we will start seeing less and less 1 year "bridge deals." We should start seeing some kids (Bello, Casas, Mayer, Rafaela, and maybe Mata, Walter, Kelly and others) with 4-6 years control winning FT jobs, while Yoshida, Story, Devers, Whitlock, Bello, Houck, Schreiber and McGuire hold some slots for 3 or more years to come.

 

There is a lot of comfort in stability. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Sox 40 man roster change over, so quickly. Trevor Story was signed 11 months ago and is 18th on the 40 man roster seniority list! Whitlock has been on the Sox for 2 seasons and is ranked 11th in seniority. Verdugo was added almost 3 years to the day and is 5th! If Bobby Dee and Barsier ever get traded or DFA'd, he'll be 3rd.

 

[moonslav59]

Either one of them can stop this instantly by not participating in a back-and-forth that no one reads but themselves. So apparently, each of them increases their personal sense of self-worth (not shared by anyone) by continuing.

 

Your armchair psychoanalysis is a a bit off, but I will try (again) to keep it less personal.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The point being Bloom has tons of work to do over the next couple of years to extend/replace 14 players. The key being quality of replacement has to be better.

I'm not sure you can consistently win with as much turnover as we've had recently.

 

At some point, Bloom should have a team put together that has some stability and obviously the one that can get into the playoffs.

 

 

This is one of my main criticisms of Bloom; every GM misses on some acquisitions, but Chaim seldom keeps the good ones he finds.

 

The rotating roster makes for a cruddy fan experience, too -- just when you get used to liking a player, you have to start rooting for a new one who might not be as good.

 

I realize there are some x-factors beyond injuries or retirement that fans will never know about that lead to player turnover. But usually teams are always looking to upgrade positions when making changes. The Bloom Era is the first I can remember in Boston where it doesn't always feel that way.