Fire Bloom .

[sk7326]

Mookie was an ownership decision.

 

It's right to blame Bloom for what Beni and Renfroe turned into.

 

Last year, the grab bag worked out. It failed this year.

 

If the team plays poorly next year, it is a near replication of Cherington's tenure.

 

Yeah, Mookie is a separate thing - it is disturbing, but that is disturbing relative to ownership priorities. Once ownership decided to fire sale David Price along with dealing Mookie, Bloom made a pretty good baseball deal all things considered. It's NOT sufficient value for a player like Mookie - but that horse left the barn and was at least two counties away by then

 

Benintendi's value had soured, and ex ante Cordero was enough of a high ceiling lottery ticket to try, but it has worked out like most lottery tickets.

 

The thing with Bradley is that the first time he was here, he combined terrific defense with wildly inconsistent offense, but at least enough peaks to pay for the valleys. But the guy who came back was a guy who struck out less, but also worked counts less and made less good contact. So, woof. That said, both Binelas and Hamilton have shown flashes of interesting somethings. But clearly the Brewers have gotten the best of it.

 

I know we have talked about the Tampa Bay best practices and such. But one of those is fielding the ball, and one thing that has been true in Bloom's time is that the Sox have been very bad at that. It's even starker noting that of course they traded their best defensive outfielder to the Dodgers. Indeed the last two years have been bad enough that it raises questions whether it is purely a lack of talent or whether the defensive positioning algorithms the team has are effective.

[JDavis76]

Well those were absolutely the only offers that anyone published.

 

I’m sure several other teams checked in, but taking on one year of an OF making $25mill plus a portion of Price’s deal also eliminated over 2/3 of MLB before names even changed hands.

 

And everyone who panned the trade in the media failed to mention even another single interested party. So it’s possible/likely other offers existed, the extent of how serious they were cannot be ascertained.

 

That leaves two known serious offers. If you know of a third, I’d love to add it to my list of options. I welcome all corrections…

 

My point was that we have no idea what other offers were out there, some may have not been leaked to the media, we don't know.

[notin]

My point was that we have no idea what other offers were out there, some may have not been leaked to the media, we don't know.

 

Ok, but which of the known options graded better than a D?

 

And if you can unearth any hidden ones, please add to the list.

 

But as Old Red’s complaint is Bloom should have done better, what is he referring to? Is there some unknown offer I’m missing? Or did he just see bad grades from pundits who failed to address the entirety of the deal and surrounding financial implications and simply looked solely at talent without taking money and years of control into account?

Edited August 1, 2022 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Well those were absolutely the only offers that anyone published.

 

I’m sure several other teams checked in, but taking on one year of an OF making $25mill plus a portion of Price’s deal also eliminated over 2/3 of MLB before names even changed hands.

 

And everyone who panned the trade in the media failed to mention even another single interested party. So it’s possible/likely other offers existed, the extent of how serious they were cannot be ascertained.

 

That leaves two known serious offers. If you know of a third, I’d love to add it to my list of options. I welcome all corrections…

 

I think Mookie's $27 mill salary made him by far the most expensive one-year rental in history.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, Mookie is a separate thing - it is disturbing, but that is disturbing relative to ownership priorities. Once ownership decided to fire sale David Price along with dealing Mookie, Bloom made a pretty good baseball deal all things considered. It's NOT sufficient value for a player like Mookie - but that horse left the barn and was at least two counties away by then

 

Benintendi's value had soured, and ex ante Cordero was enough of a high ceiling lottery ticket to try, but it has worked out like most lottery tickets.

 

The thing with Bradley is that the first time he was here, he combined terrific defense with wildly inconsistent offense, but at least enough peaks to pay for the valleys. But the guy who came back was a guy who struck out less, but also worked counts less and made less good contact. So, woof. That said, both Binelas and Hamilton have shown flashes of interesting somethings. But clearly the Brewers have gotten the best of it.

 

I know we have talked about the Tampa Bay best practices and such. But one of those is fielding the ball, and one thing that has been true in Bloom's time is that the Sox have been very bad at that. It's even starker noting that of course they traded their best defensive outfielder to the Dodgers. Indeed the last two years have been bad enough that it raises questions whether it is purely a lack of talent or whether the defensive positioning algorithms the team has are effective.

 

Kiké is a great OFer. JBJ is a great OFer. If they were paired with Verdugo for 120+ games, it would have looked really good out there if the hitting wasn't atrocious.

 

Verdugo is on par with what Beni was, so slightly above average for LF.

 

Duran is bad. Arroyo is bad. Cordero is bad. The problem is that the MLB roster had to be supplemented with a lot of AAA guys and the org depth isn't good enough at that level right now. In another year or two, bringing up the AAA guys won't be such an issue, but it was ugly for this year. The Sox basically needed to replace 4 positions this year due to injury/ineffectiveness: 1b/2b/CF/RF. That's a lot to do from within.

[sk7326]

Kiké is a great OFer. JBJ is a great OFer. If they were paired with Verdugo for 120+ games, it would have looked really good out there if the hitting wasn't atrocious.

 

Verdugo is on par with what Beni was, so slightly above average for LF.

 

Duran is bad. Arroyo is bad. Cordero is bad. The problem is that the MLB roster had to be supplemented with a lot of AAA guys and the org depth isn't good enough at that level right now. In another year or two, bringing up the AAA guys won't be such an issue, but it was ugly for this year. The Sox basically needed to replace 4 positions this year due to injury/ineffectiveness: 1b/2b/CF/RF. That's a lot to do from within.

 

It is. Really 1B has been the maddening one for me, only because the offensive threshhold was so high. Of course, now that I said that watch Dalbec go on a 2 month heater again.

[JDavis76]

Kiké is a great OFer. JBJ is a great OFer. If they were paired with Verdugo for 120+ games, it would have looked really good out there if the hitting wasn't atrocious.

 

Verdugo is on par with what Beni was, so slightly above average for LF.

 

Duran is bad. Arroyo is bad. Cordero is bad. The problem is that the MLB roster had to be supplemented with a lot of AAA guys and the org depth isn't good enough at that level right now. In another year or two, bringing up the AAA guys won't be such an issue, but it was ugly for this year. The Sox basically needed to replace 4 positions this year due to injury/ineffectiveness: 1b/2b/CF/RF. That's a lot to do from within.

 

And JFK would have enjoyed a nice day in the sun riding around in a convertible IF it wasn't for the bullet......

[mvp 78]

It is. Really 1B has been the maddening one for me, only because the offensive threshhold was so high. Of course, now that I said that watch Dalbec go on a 2 month heater again.

 

July has been his most productive month with 5 HR's. His k rate was also at 42.3% tho...

[notin]

Replacing Mookie was never going to happen. If you think he did poorly because all the pundits gave the trade a D, what better option did he pass on? (Disclosure - I preferred the original Verdugo/Graterol deal at the time. And despite Graterol’s health struggles, I still do.)

 

But it’s not like 29 teams were throwing their best names at Boston and Bloom just chose poorly. His options were limited. He could:

 

1) have held Betts and Price (whom the Sox would still be paying $31mill to) for one more season. He really couldn’t re-sign Betts because Mookie wanted a ton of money and Henry wanted to reset the limit, which becomes impossible while paying full price Mookie and Price

2) traded him to LA as we saw

3) traded him and Price to San Diego for Wil Myers, one of Cal Quantrill or Joey Lucchesi, and one of Manny Margot or Josh Naylor.

 

That’s it. Those are the options. So if 2 is a D, which of 1 or 3 was better?

 

I suspect you’ll ignore the question and continue to complain while pretending there were dozens of better offers that were refused for no reason whatsoever…

 

Nothing from Old Red yet?

[Old Red]

The MLB squad is worse off. Is the organization as a whole worse off? It depends on how much you value lottery tickets.

 

As I’ve been saying all along now for months now my main concern is who’s playing on the field at Fenway Park in a Red Sox uniform, and nothing else. I don’t care about who’s on the 40 man roster, or the ranking of the farm system. Casas, and Mayer may turn into good ML players, but until they do I don’t care what they do at Worcester, or any other farm league city. Red Sox record here, and now is what I look at, and care about, and will worry about next year after this season is over. Some like to project the Red Sox 40 man in 2025, and good for you, and some were talking about fire sales before this past season even started, where I could care less. Now it’s get rid of all expiring contracts, and see how many prospects/suspects we can get back. Bottom line the Red Sox are a last place team, and there is plenty of blame to go around, and that starts at the top.

[notin]

As I’ve been saying all along now for months now my main concern is who’s playing on the field at Fenway Park in a Red Sox uniform, and nothing else. I don’t care about who’s on the 40 man roster, or the ranking of the farm system. Casas, and Mayer may turn into good ML players, but until they do I don’t care what they do at Worcester, or any other farm league city. Red Sox record here, and now is what I look at, and care about, and will worry about next year after this season is over. Some like to project the Red Sox 40 man in 2025, and good for you, and some were talking about fire sales before this past season even started, where I could care less. Now it’s get rid of all expiring contracts, and see how many prospects/suspects we can get back. Bottom line the Red Sox are a last place team, and there is plenty of blame to go around, and that starts at the top.

 

The problem is a lot of these issues were inevitable, as the Sox spent heavily on free agents and drained the upper farm. Some of us have been saying so for a while.

 

The decree to get under the tax threshold just complicated matters further.

 

This wasn’t caused by incompetency in running the team the past off-season. This has been smoldering for years…

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Why do some of you posters continue to respond to the hateful droppings of a troll whose moniker is Jefferson Davis? Edited August 1, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[Old Red]

The problem is a lot of these issues were inevitable, as the Sox spent heavily on free agents and drained the upper farm. Some of us have been saying so for a while.

 

The decree to get under the tax threshold just complicated matters further.

 

This wasn’t caused by incompetency in running the team the past off-season. This has been smoldering for years…

Who was drained off the upper farm who would be playing a big roll in Boston today?

[notin]

Who was drained off the upper farm who would be playing a big roll in Boston today?

 

Doesn’t matter if they’d play a big role.

 

They just had to make minimum wage.

 

But as you asked, who would you prefer in RF? JBJ or te still cheaper Manny Margot? How about 2b? Jeter Downs, Yolmer Sanchez, or 2022 All Star Sergio Espinal? How about choosing between Kopech or Brayan Bello? Heck, what about Kopech vs Rich Hill?

 

These deals all helped win a ring, but they also helped create the situation the team had today…

[Bellhorn04]

Doesn’t matter if they’d play a big role.

 

They just had to make minimum wage.

 

But as you asked, who would you prefer in RF? JBJ or te still cheaper Manny Margot? How about 2b? Jeter Downs, Yolmer Sanchez, or 2022 All Star Sergio Espinal? How about choosing between Kopech or Brayan Bello? Heck, what about Kopech vs Rich Hill?

 

These deals all helped win a ring, but they also helped create the situation the team had today…

 

All in all, though, I think it's fair to say our farm hasn't yet produced any elite MLB players since the 2011 draft.

[Old Red]

Doesn’t matter if they’d play a big role.

 

They just had to make minimum wage.

 

But as you asked, who would you prefer in RF? JBJ or te still cheaper Manny Margot? How about 2b? Jeter Downs, Yolmer Sanchez, or 2022 All Star Sergio Espinal? How about choosing between Kopech or Brayan Bello? Heck, what about Kopech vs Rich Hill?

 

These deals all helped win a ring, but they also helped create the situation the team had today…

Minimum wage?

[notin]

All in all, though, I think it's fair to say our farm hasn't yet produced any elite MLB players since the 2011 draft.

 

Unless you count Devers and Bogaerts…

[Bellhorn04]

Kopech has been scuffling lately and his fWAR is 0.9 this year.

[Bellhorn04]

Unless you count Devers and Bogaerts…

 

Bogaerts was signed in 2009.

 

I should have said since Devers in 2013.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bellhorn04

[notin]

Minimum wage?

 

Yes. If you have players performing at a serviceable lever but making league minimum (or thereabouts), it makes it easier to retain elite and extremely expensive players. Have you ever heard of the Los Angeles Dodgers?

[notin]

Correct. I should have said since those two, both international signings.

 

If you had said “drafted”, my answer would have been different. Possibly non-existant…

[Bellhorn04]

If you had said “drafted”, my answer would have been different. Possibly non-existant…

 

And see my edit. Devers came after 2011 but not Bogey.

[JDavis76]

Why do some thin-skinned henny youngman wannabe posters care who responds to me?

[mvp 78]

Doesn’t matter if they’d play a big role.

 

They just had to make minimum wage.

 

But as you asked, who would you prefer in RF? JBJ or te still cheaper Manny Margot? How about 2b? Jeter Downs, Yolmer Sanchez, or 2022 All Star Sergio Espinal? How about choosing between Kopech or Brayan Bello? Heck, what about Kopech vs Rich Hill?

 

These deals all helped win a ring, but they also helped create the situation the team had today…

 

Mauricio Dubon in CF instead of Duran.

[mvp 78]

Why do some thin-skinned henny youngman wannabe posters care who responds to me?

 

I thought you were on the West Coast of FL?

[JDavis76]

I thought you were on the West Coast of FL?

 

Nah, that side of the state is way too boring for me.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think Mookie's $27 mill salary made him by far the most expensive one-year rental in history.

 

I never thought for a second that the Dodgers considered Betts a rental when they decided to trade for him.

[Old Red]

Yes. If you have players performing at a serviceable lever but making league minimum (or thereabouts), it makes it easier to retain elite and extremely expensive players. Have you ever heard of the Los Angeles Dodgers?

 

You mean Walter Alston, Maury Wills, Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax, Wes Parker, Junior Gilliam Jim Lefebre, and co?

[mvp 78]

Nah, that side of the state is way too boring for me.

 

I guess I just assumed it was all the toxic algae in the Gulf that was making your posts so bad. Now I realize it's just the iguana infestation and nonstop traffic in FTL that's driving you crazy. You're not having iguana's coming out of your toilet are you?

[JDavis76]

You mean Walter Alston, Maury Wills, Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax, Wes Parker, Junior Gilliam Jim Lefebre, and co?

 

Don't forget recent HOF inductee Gil Hodges!