Fire Bloom .

[JDavis76]

Well obviously, no other team is as great as the Yankees are.

 

Remind me again how many titles the great Yankees have won in the past 10 seasons?

 

I never said they were great and bringing up titles is nothing more than moving the goalposts.

 

You stated "any team would have a difficult time overcoming the number of injuries that we've had, no matter how well the team is constructed.", I was merely pointing out that it's not entirely true.

[Kimmi]

You keep on going to the fantasy that the Red Sox looked good until the injuries hit. The only time the Red Sox have looked good was going against the NL West when Seattle was playing bad, and the Angels were going through a 15 game losing streak. They started 10-19, and the bottom line is they have beat the bad playing teams, and have lost to the good teams.

 

I'm not denying that we started off poorly. I'm also not denying that we beat up on weaker teams. I'm also not denying that we aren't a .769 winning team that we saw in July.

 

Do you disagree that that the injuries have hurt this team? Do you think we'd be at least 4 games better in July if we were playing at mostly full strength?

[Kimmi]

I don’t think getting an actual 1B who could play 1B, or an RHH OF not named Arroyo who could catch the ball, and hit a little that both have been sorely needed needed a blockbuster move.

 

I agree on the RHH outfielder. I don't blame Bloom for not getting a 1B. Dalbec showed great promise at the end of last season and Casas was waiting in the wings if he didn't.

[Old Red]

I'm not denying that we started off poorly. I'm also not denying that we beat up on weaker teams. I'm also not denying that we aren't a .769 winning team that we saw in July.

 

Do you disagree that that the injuries have hurt this team? Do you think we'd be at least 4 games better in July if we were playing at mostly full strength?

A 769 winning team in July? Wow!

[Kimmi]

To each his own, but, to me, not being into fantasy sports at all, I get absolutely 0 enjoyment from the machinations of a front office. I only care about what happens on the field and the human beings I follow there. I am thus totally deaf to arguments justifying getting rid of Betts, or now Bogey and Devers, Vaz, even JD--players who have been productive and likely will continue to be. So while from a business standpoint, I admire what Bloom did in Tampa Bay, from a sports aspect, I have no interest in it whatsoever, where my view is simply: "Find the best players you can and keep them."

 

That's fine jad. Many posters feel the same way, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that. If I thought that the Sox would do that year in and year out with no regard to payroll or to the luxury tax, I'd say go for it. But knowing that huge moves like that today are going to handcuff us in future years, I feel differently.

[Kimmi]

There was. That’s why the team is what it is now…

 

100%

 

Going all in to win does not come without consequences.

[Old Red]

I agree on the RHH outfielder. I don't blame Bloom for not getting a 1B. Dalbec showed great promise at the end of last season and Casas was waiting in the wings if he didn't.

 

And neither has happened, and something should have done by now. Mismanagement to me by Bloom.

[Kimmi]

The biggest bullpen piece he acquired this offseason was Diekman and that really didn't work out. I think another big mistake was bringing in Hill/Paxton/Wacha rather than finding guys that can actually take the ball every 5th day. This caused them to mess around with Houck and Whitlock which caused further bullpen issues.

 

I really had no problems with the way the rotation or bullpen was constructed. I did think they would add one more starter, but I was okay with what we had. Losing Sale at the beginning of the season hurt depth wise.

[Old Red]

That's fine jad. Many posters feel the same way, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that. If I thought that the Sox would do that year in and year out with no regard to payroll or to the luxury tax, I'd say go for it. But knowing that huge moves like that today are going to handcuff us in future years, I feel differently.

 

The only thing that will handcuff the Red Sox going forward will be JH himself. How many of the 4 titles do think the Red Sox would have won with this JH compared to the JH when he first got to Boston? Why does many on here worry so much how much money he spends, and if he pays a tax, or not. You think JH cares about you with the high ticket prices, or any other prices in, and around Fenway?

Edited August 1, 2022 by Old Red

[dgalehouse]

The Orioles' BP consists of guys that are still all under team control, if I'm not mistaken. (Hence, the need for rebuilding the farm.) The Orioles didn't spend big on a closer. They didn't sign a "proven" closer. In fact, their primary closer is Jorge Lopez, who posted a 6.07 ERA (5.44 xERA) last season, and prior to this year, had one save.

 

My point is that as much as people want to sign the big name closers to big contracts, that's not a good use of a team's resources, IMO. The best relievers in a season typically come out of nowhere and can be found for relatively little money. I don't think Bloom underestimates the importance of a good bullpen. He just has a different philosophy behind building one than most people do. Acquire as many arms as possible and see what sticks. Sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesn't. But the same can be said about spending big bucks on the bullpen too.

 

I don't think that applies only to the bullpen . You could say the same about the starting rotation or any position on the field . The bottom line is that you need quality. You could go after established guys with a track record or you can be a good judge of talent and find the lower priced diamonds in the rough. But this Sox bullpen is just not good. It has taken them out of way too many games. There is no getting away from that.

[Kimmi]

I never said they were great and bringing up titles is nothing more than moving the goalposts.

 

You stated "any team would have a difficult time overcoming the number of injuries that we've had, no matter how well the team is constructed.", I was merely pointing out that it's not entirely true.

 

Of course it's true. Maybe not to the extent that the Sox fell off in July, but it's true.

 

OK, I'll grant you that the Rays are one team that can seemingly sustain injury after injury and not miss a beat.

[Old Red]

I don't think that applies only to the bullpen . You could say the same about the starting rotation or any position on the field . The bottom line is that you need quality. You could go after established guys with a track record or you can be a good judge of talent and find the lower priced diamonds in the rough. But this Sox bullpen is just not good. It has taken them out of way too many games. There is no getting away from that.

 

And it pretty much started from day1.

[Kimmi]

The only thing that will handcuff the Red Sox going forward will be JH himself. How many of the 4 titles do think the Red Sox would have won with this JH compared to the JH when he first got to Boston?

 

I don't think Henry's philosophy right now is really all that different than from when he first hired Theo. He really has been more of a 'long term sustainability' type of guy than a 'win now' guy. I don't believe that Henry is not willing to spend.

 

Possibly, the difference is that the contracts are so huge these days that Henry is not willing to go to that extreme, and rightly so, IMO, but that doesn't mean that he won't continually hover around the luxury tax line, going over in some years and staying under in others.

[Kimmi]

I don't think that applies only to the bullpen . You could say the same about the starting rotation or any position on the field . The bottom line is that you need quality. You could go after established guys with a track record or you can be a good judge of talent and find the lower priced diamonds in the rough. But this Sox bullpen is just not good. It has taken them out of way too many games. There is no getting away from that.

 

It hasn't been good. I don't think it's as bad as as most people do, but I can agree that it hasn't been good. I still contend that the lack of offense has been the bigger issue this season than the bullpen, especially during our terrible start.

[Old Red]

I don't think Henry's philosophy right now is really all that different than from when he first hired Theo. He really has been more of a 'long term sustainability' type of guy than a 'win now' guy. I don't believe that Henry is not willing to spend.

 

Possibly, the difference is that the contracts are so huge these days that Henry is not willing to go to that extreme, and rightly so, IMO, but that doesn't mean that he won't continually hover around the luxury tax line, going over in some years and staying under in others.

If his philosophy hasn’t changed I don’t think Bloom would be in town. I do agree with you about the contracts though.

[Old Red]

It hasn't been good. I don't think it's as bad as as most people do, but I can agree that it hasn't been good. I still contend that the lack of offense has been the bigger issue this season than the bullpen, especially during our terrible start.

 

It’s true the offense was weak early, but it’s also true the bullpen blew saves from the 8th inning on when they did have the lead early in the season, which was a big part in the 10-19 start.

[Kimmi]

If his philosophy hasn’t changed I don’t think Bloom would be in town. I do agree with you about the contracts though.

 

I think Bloom's philosophy is very similar to Theo's and Ben's, which mirror Henry's philosophy. I think Henry got off track when he hired Dombrowski.

[mvp 78]

I really had no problems with the way the rotation or bullpen was constructed. I did think they would add one more starter, but I was okay with what we had. Losing Sale at the beginning of the season hurt depth wise.

 

To me, it seemed like relying on too many older/injury risk pitchers (Hill, Wacha, Paxton, Sale, Eovaldi) was a bad idea.

 

I'm also interested to see what the post mortem will be on Matt Barnes someday.

[Kimmi]

It’s true the offense was weak early, but it’s also true the bullpen blew saves from the 8th inning on when they did have the lead early in the season, which was a big part in the 10-19 start.

 

The team was built around the strength of the offense, not the strength of the pitching. It's difficult to continually pitch in high stress situations where your offense doesn't give you any kind of a cushion. The pen is at fault too, but I'm more prone to blaming the offense for scoring only 3.3 runs/game during that 10-19 start.

[Kimmi]

To me, it seemed like relying on too many older/injury risk pitchers (Hill, Wacha, Paxton, Sale, Eovaldi) was a bad idea.

 

I'm also interested to see what the post mortem will be on Matt Barnes someday.

 

Fair enough. I think the plan was always to have one of Houck or Whitlock be in the rotation rather than the pen.

 

Barnes flaming out was a huge blow.

[Old Red]

The team was built around the strength of the offense, not the strength of the pitching. It's difficult to continually pitch in high stress situations where your offense doesn't give you any kind of a cushion. The pen is at fault too, but I'm more prone to blaming the offense for scoring only 3.3 runs/game during that 10-19 start.

 

The facts are the facts that the Red Sox were either ahead , or tied in the 8th inning, and blew a number of games. Now I’ve already agreed with you that the offense should have scored more runs, but it still doesn’t change the fact that they blew the leads they had. High stress? I think it had more to do with the personnel, and the way Cora handled them.

[moonslav59]

To me, it seemed like relying on too many older/injury risk pitchers (Hill, Wacha, Paxton, Sale, Eovaldi) was a bad idea.

 

I'm also interested to see what the post mortem will be on Matt Barnes someday.

 

No doubt, and the Paxton deal, done more for ‘23 than ‘22 stands out as the one that limited what he could spend on starters.

 

The real killer of not being able to have 4 of these 5 healthy at all times, with Pivetta, was it took Houck and Whitlock out of the pen.

 

The pen plan has been bashed to no end, but it was really starter depth that did in the pen. IMO, this is not a bad pen:

 

Houck

Whitlock

Schreiber

Strahm

Taylor

Davis

Crawford/Sawamura/Wink or Danish

[Old Red]

Fair enough. I think the plan was always to have one of Houck or Whitlock be in the rotation rather than the pen.

 

Barnes flaming out was a huge blow.

To me the only reason that Houck started in the rotation was, because Frail was out, and then the only reason Whitlock was inserted was, because Houck wasn’t vaxed.

[mvp 78]

To me the only reason that Houck started in the rotation was, because Frail was out, and then the only reason Whitlock was inserted was, because Houck wasn’t vaxed.

 

I thought it was because Houck was piggybacking with Hill?

[Old Red]

I thought it was because Houck was piggybacking with Hill?

 

Houck started in the rotation, but Whitlock took his place in the Tampa series just before the Team went to Toronto where Houck had to stay back.

[mvp 78]

It just seems like the plan the past 3 years has been kinda "we'll figure it out as we go."

 

2020:

Starting rotation includes Weber and a bullpen day.

That bullpen.

 

2021:

Original plan was Kiké at 2b.

Cordero getting a lot of run early in the season for some reason.

Uncertainty at 1b.

 

 

2022:

Continued uncertainty at 1b with a backup of Travis Shaw.

OF was very LHB heavy and the only idea was to platoon Arroyo out there.

Starting rotation of the walking wounded.

Another bullpen hodgepodge (Barnes was a known concern at this point, Diekman "replaced" Ottavino, no defined role for Houck/Whitlock, Taylor injury).

 

I will say that a lot of us wanted Jose Iglesias as a bench bat and that would have been the right call over Arroyo in retrospect.

[mvp 78]

Houck started in the rotation, but Whitlock took his place in the Tampa series just before the Team went to Toronto where Houck had to stay back.

 

You're right, I just looked at the game log.

 

He only started one more game after that. It can't be due to punishment because they've let Kutter become a starter.

[Old Red]

You're right, I just looked at the game log.

 

He only started one more game after that. It can't be due to punishment because they've let Kutter become a starter.

 

I think Bloom wanted Whitlock in the rotation more than Cora.

[moonslav59]

Too bad we didn’t resign Perez instead of Paxton.

 

He would have allowed Houck to start the year in the pen and mane the piggyback idea never happens.

 

He might have also kept Whitlock in the pen, all year, too.

 

Had the team still sucked, we could have traded him.

[Old Red]

It just seems like the plan the past 3 years has been kinda "we'll figure it out as we go."

 

2020:

Starting rotation includes Weber and a bullpen day.

That bullpen.

 

2021:

Original plan was Kiké at 2b.

Cordero getting a lot of run early in the season for some reason.

Uncertainty at 1b.

 

 

2022:

Continued uncertainty at 1b with a backup of Travis Shaw.

OF was very LHB heavy and the only idea was to platoon Arroyo out there.

Starting rotation of the walking wounded.

Another bullpen hodgepodge (Barnes was a known concern at this point, Diekman "replaced" Ottavino, no defined role for Houck/Whitlock, Taylor injury).

 

I will say that a lot of us wanted Jose Iglesias as a bench bat and that would have been the right call over Arroyo in retrospect.

Bloom does business like he’s cooking spaghetti, and throws stuff against the wall to see what sticks.