Will there be a 2022 season?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Man Fred said the fans were at the top of the consideration list, and that is as BS as you can get.

 

He meant fans are at the top of the consideration list of those the owners least consider.

[Thunder]

The news out of today sure is disappointing, but at the end of the day, there's nothing any of us can do about it, other than wait patiently for baseball. I fell back in love with the sport last year. It would have been great to potentially get to Fenway on Opening Weekend and hear the sounds of summer while also freezing my ass off, but life doesn't always work like that. In the meantime, I'll just keep dancing away the tax returns on my plate while dreaming about summer days of golf and summer evenings of baseball

[moonslav59]

I think it is fitting , right and understandable that folks are siding with the players on this lockout. The players are mostly good guys. The owners are a greedy and unlikable bunch. And that includes John Henry. Unfortunately , when this is over , many of these same fans will be urging the owners to save on salaries. " Don't exceed the luxury tax , get somebody cheaper , this guy is overpaid , that guy is not worth it , be like the Rays , save money , keep the budget down , we can't afford this guy or that guy , and certainly not both of them, try to win with a low payroll ," and so forth and so on.

 

Fair points, but once the rules are agreed upon and established, and you kind of have a feel for what your team's budget is, it's all part of the speculation games some of us fans take part in.

[moonslav59]

He meant fans are at the top of the consideration list of those the owners least consider.

 

Well said.

[moonslav59]

The first 2 series of the season are officially cancelled, for starters.

 

A full 2022 season is dead.

 

Rays then O's were our first 2. (The Yanks, then Tigers and Twins, next.)

 

Does anyone have 2 or 4 game series in their first two series? If yes, are we looking at unbalanced scheduled games again?

[Old Red]

Need/Deserve... six of one-half dozen...

 

If you look at the entertainment industry, and this is what baseball is, people pay big money to watch top talent.

 

The middle men have always tried to gouge out as big of a chunk as possible, and many an entertainer has been left broke by cheating agents and "handlers." Many have gone broke by their own undoings- drugs, women, cars, rampant unchecked spending, and many managers, venue owners and business owners have made big money off the best talent around.

 

Baseball should not be viewed in much of a different view, even though it is different in many ways. I get the "risk" owners take, but when's the last time even a half-witted owner lost money in baseball? It's hard to track all the money they make, because much is secret, but we do see what the pay for the team and what they get when they sell it, and nobody can convince me these guys aren't making way more than the players are making, and people come to see the players not the owners.

 

I pay to see the Rolling Stones in concert. I know the middle men gobble up much of the ticket costs. Hell, the damn "service fees," alone are a joke, but the Stones make a ton of money, and they DESERVE it!

 

So do MLB baseball players. Nobody will pay big money and cable bills to watch Paw Sox level talent... at least not at the level we see in the bigs.

 

 

Like I have said the players are the show, but the owners put on the show.Let the players put on their own show, and see how much money they make.

[harmony]

Like I have said the players are the show, but the owners put on the show.Let the players put on their own show, and see how much money they make.

Conversely, let the owners put on a show with no players and see how much money the owners make.

[Old Red]

Conversely, let the owners put on a show with no players and see how much money the owners make.

 

The owners already have businesses outside of baseball, so it is not the same thing. I’ve already said the players are the show.

[moonslav59]

Conversely, let the owners put on a show with no players and see how much money the owners make.

 

You think they'll try scab-ball, again?

 

That would be funny.

[Old Red]

You think they'll try scab-ball, again?

 

That would be funny.

 

No! And He’ll no!

[Old Red]

I understand your opinion, but disagree.

 

Players should not make less and less money as owners make more and more.

 

The owners called their offer their "best." That is basically calling an end to negotiations, unless the players agree in full.

 

Not even a token raise of $1M to the luxury tax limt.

 

A token raise to their last min salary offer and peanuts in other areas.

 

It's your right to blame whomever you want, but to me, this is 100% on the owners.

 

The locked the doors and took over 40 days to give their first offer. They've moved very little from a position where they had screwed the players over on the last deal, and I'm not even talking about player service time manipulations.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree... again, but in all honesty, do you think the players should except this final and "best offer?".

 

Moon I agree with everything you have said about the owners, and along what others on here have said as well, bit where I differ is on the poor, poor pitiful players, which I don’t believe they are. This isn’t the final final offer, but just the last offer for now.

[jad]

Moon I agree with everything you have said about the owners, and along what others on here have said as well, bit where I differ is on the poor, poor pitiful players, which I don’t believe they are. This isn’t the final final offer, but just the last offer for now.

 

If the owners really have 'another offer' in mind and are just withholding it for now, then they are both dumber and bigger scumbags than I thought (which would be difficult)

[Old Red]

If the owners really have 'another offer' in mind and are just withholding it for now, then they are both dumber and bigger scumbags than I thought (which would be difficult)

 

They don’t have another offer in mind at the moment, but I’m sure there will be more negotiations, and offers at a later date on both sides. When that will be is anyones guess.

[notin]

I think it is fitting , right and understandable that folks are siding with the players on this lockout. The players are mostly good guys. The owners are a greedy and unlikable bunch. And that includes John Henry. Unfortunately , when this is over , many of these same fans will be urging the owners to save on salaries. " Don't exceed the luxury tax , get somebody cheaper , this guy is overpaid , that guy is not worth it , be like the Rays , save money , keep the budget down , we can't afford this guy or that guy , and certainly not both of them, try to win with a low payroll ," and so forth and so on.

 

 

Have you ever passed on a chance to take a dig at people who don’t see things your way?

[notin]

The owners already have businesses outside of baseball, so it is not the same thing. I’ve already said the players are the show.

 

Of course for a lot of them, that “outside business” includes broadcasting baseball…

[moonslav59]

Moon I agree with everything you have said about the owners, and along what others on here have said as well, bit where I differ is on the poor, poor pitiful players, which I don’t believe they are. This isn’t the final final offer, but just the last offer for now.

 

I've never called the players "poor," and you know that. "Pitiful" is not a word I'd use either.

 

It's about what's fair.

 

It's hard to think a group of people making an average of $4M deserve or should get a raise, but within the context of all the money baseball generates, they deserve way more than the owners "final and best offer."

 

I've agreed to disagree, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

The players earn what they make and the owners make much much more without really "earning it." They make money because they have money. There certainly is no pity feelings towards them.

 

Of course, this is not their last offer, but they worded it that way and at the same time called the players out for taking an aggressive stance.

 

They have been playing the media all along. They knew this was where it would end up, and their unbridled greed is by far the major reason there will be baseball games cut from the season, or if there is a season, at all.

 

They did not even give a slight impression they were willing to give anything. Their offer was a huge slap in the face, and IMO, the public should see it for what it is and call them out.

 

I'd rather not see any baseball, this year, than to see the players accept anything close their "final and best offer." I really mean that.

 

This filthy greed need to be checked.

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

If the owners really have 'another offer' in mind and are just withholding it for now, then they are both dumber and bigger scumbags than I thought (which would be difficult)

 

How can they say their "final and best offer" is almost identical to the one they started with?

 

If they really mean this, then MLB might be over, as we know it.

 

I hope the players start their own league (not likely), even if it means there is no longer a team called the Boston Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

Of course for a lot of them, that “outside business” includes broadcasting baseball…

 

...and merchandizing and concession stands, and ...

[Old Red]

I've never called the players "poor," and you know that. "Pitiful" is not a word I'd use either.

 

It's about what's fair.

 

It's hard to think a group of people making an average of $4M deserve or should get a raise, but within the context of all the money baseball generates, they deserve way more than the owners "final and best offer."

 

I've agreed to disagree, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

The players earn what they make and the owners make much much more without really "earning it." They make money because they have money. There certainly is no pity feelings towards them.

 

Of course, this is not their last offer, but they worded it that way and at the same time called the players out for taking an aggressive stance.

 

They have been playing the media all along. They knew this was where it would end up, and their unbridled greed is by far the major reason there will be baseball games cut from the season, or if there is a season, at all.

 

They did not even give a slight impression they were willing to give anything. Their offer was a huge slap in the face, and IMO, the public should see it for what it is and call them out.

 

I'd rather not see any baseball, this year, than to see the players accept anything close their "final and best offer." I really mean that.

 

This filthy greed need to be checked.

 

 

 

 

Where does it say that I said that you called the players poor, and pitiful? Those are my words, and have said right along that with an average salary of 4+M the players are not poor,poor players, so you are WRONG that I said you did. I also said I agree with everything you said about the owners, and what other people have said about the owners too. Yes the players earn what they make, and the owners make much more, but where would each be without the other? I would be all for the players starting their own league, and paying all the expenses, and see how it goes. I also wouldn’t care if the players played, or not this season, because the greed does need to be checked on both sides. Soto turned down $300M+, because he wants more, and some owner will offer more. Filthy greed on both sides.

[S5Dewey]

How can they say their "final and best offer" is almost identical to the one they started with?

 

Sometimes we have to listen to the words. IIRC Manfred was careful to say in the press conference after his speech that this wasn't their "best and final offer", only that it was their best offer. I was surprised to hear him say that because "best and final offer" is legalese meaning that they have no further offers and is the precursor to mediation. If agreement isn't reached by mediation the owners could then "unlock" the players and force them to either come back and play under the "current best offer" or go on strike - which would be a PR coup and a no-lose situation for the owners.

 

By his specifically not saying "best and final" he's leaving the door open to further negotiations, but MLB is expecting the players to make the next move.

 

Some have said that the players have been planning for this ever since the last CBA was ratified. That may be true but I also believe the owners have been planning for it also. I believe too that there has been collusion (legal or otherwise) between the "lower tier" of owners to prevent the increase in the CBT in order to force more of that revenue stream into their pockets rather than to the top tier of players.

[notin]

Manfred is getting hard to believe. The owners repeatedly take away every aspect of the game and then blame the players for not capitulating. They’ve turned into movie villains who kill onset extras with ease and then turn to the hero and drop the blame on him by saying “See, if you had only given up, I would not have had to do that.”

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Manfred is getting hard to believe. The owners repeatedly take away every aspect of the game and then blame the players for not capitulating. They’ve turned into movie villains who kill onset extras with ease and then turn to the hero and drop the blame on him by saying “See, if you had only given up, I would not have had to do that.”

 

So sick of the blame game. It's like a requirement for anyone running for anything. I once slammed the door in the face of a candidate who showed up waving a pamphlet all about his opponent and how bad the other guy was. I told him, "Come back when you know what YOU are going to do to make the world better." Never returned.

[mvp 78]

The first 2 series of the season are officially cancelled, for starters.

 

A full 2022 season is dead.

 

Cancelling the first two series is basically saying they are so far apart that there is no chance to get an agreement in a week. Thanks to the "last and best" MLB offer, we are going to be in a holding pattern where they just start lopping off series until the NLRB can help finish this.

[jad]

Part of me hopes (as in all sports owner/players conflicts), that the players form their own league. The other part reminds me that owners don't give a f*ck about their product, only about the money, and that they would immediately (as they have proven in the past) form a league of scabs.

[Old Red]

Part of me hopes (as in all sports owner/players conflicts), that the players form their own league. The other part reminds me that owners don't give a f*ck about their product, only about the money, and that they would immediately (as they have proven in the past) form a league of scabs.

 

I’m all for the players forming their own league, and paying ALL the expenses to see how it all works out. 100% let’s go, and no I don’t think if that happens that the present owners form another league of so called scabs.

[mvp 78]

Part of me hopes (as in all sports owner/players conflicts), that the players form their own league. The other part reminds me that owners don't give a f*ck about their product, only about the money, and that they would immediately (as they have proven in the past) form a league of scabs.

 

It would be cool, but I don't see how they'd get a tv deal, which is where a lot of the money should come from. I think a barnstorming league would be interesting in this day and age. Players would probably market themselves better than MLB did anyway.

[Old Red]

It would be cool, but I don't see how they'd get a tv deal, which is where a lot of the money should come from. I think a barnstorming league would be interesting in this day and age. Players would probably market themselves better than MLB did anyway.

 

Players going out on their own would be a lot more complicated then people think, and also a lot more expensive than people think, because lots, and lots of expenses would have to be paid out, but let’s go, and give it a try. A barnstorming league? No thanks.

[notin]

So sick of the blame game. It's like a requirement for anyone running for anything. I once slammed the door in the face of a candidate who showed up waving a pamphlet all about his opponent and how bad the other guy was. I told him, "Come back when you know what YOU are going to do to make the world better." Never returned.

 

 

It’s not so much about blame during the negotiations as it is the owners stopping everything unnecessarily with a lockout and transaction freeze and closing spring training and cancelling the first two series (and counting) and then telling us “but fans are the top priority!”

 

Now a transaction freeze and lockout probably helped the Red Sox, Dodgers, Yankees, etc. in the short term. But the reality is everything could have continued under the old CBA until a new agreement was reached. And while the players might have grumbled, at least we would not be in a situation where the owners are taking the game away from the fans piece by piece…

[notin]

Part of me hopes (as in all sports owner/players conflicts), that the players form their own league. The other part reminds me that owners don't give a f*ck about their product, only about the money, and that they would immediately (as they have proven in the past) form a league of scabs.

 

I don’t care if the owners only care about money. (What business owner doesn’t?), but if that’s the case get your product together so you can make some. If they want to save money, learn to say “no” once in a while. No one put a gun to Chris Young’s head and said “Give Corey Seager $325 million or else!” Sign the CBA and live with the repercussions of being cheap. I’m fine with that. But don’t line yourself up with a $220 million dollar payroll and then tell the players “you need to stop me from doing this!”

[dgalehouse]

Rob Manfred is not a strong commissioner . And he is no baseball man. He is a pencil neck geek. He is just a puppet for the owners. He is not even a good puppet. Knucklehead Smiff was a smarter puppet. This whole thing is disgusting.