Barnes extended

[jacksonianmarch]

Cora and Boone both pulled their closers last night with the save opp still intact.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

In 9 outings thing month his ERA is over 16. Based on Cora's post-game it sounds like they might try someone else at closer

 

Hard to type after pulling out all my fingernails last night. Not only can't Barnes close anymore, right now he can't pitch. The Wild Card Sox just can't afford to use him in any leverage -- fastballs in the strike zone are bat-finders, and the last time he threw a curve that didn't bounce was before they banned the sticky stuff.

 

August is annually the worst month of his eight-year career, with by far his highest batting average and OPS against, highest WHIP, highest ERA... with twice as many HRs allowed than any other month. If the Sox don't IL Barnes with some phantom injury so he can "rehab", maybe they should use him as an opener in Houck's next game?

 

Hopefully, he's not actually injured. But it's disconcerting to see a closer talking so much in the dugout after getting pulled lately. In westerns, the wordy nervous guys always seem to get gunned down by the cool silent gunslingers who let their bullets speak.

[Maxbialystock]

Hard to type after pulling out all my fingernails last night. Not only can't Barnes close anymore, right now he can't pitch. The Wild Card Sox just can't afford to use him in any leverage -- fastballs in the strike zone are bat-finders, and the last time he threw a curve that didn't bounce was before they banned the sticky stuff.

 

August is annually the worst month of his eight-year career, with by far his highest batting average and OPS against, highest WHIP, highest ERA... with twice as many HRs allowed than any other month. If the Sox don't IL Barnes with some phantom injury so he can "rehab", maybe they should use him as an opener in Houck's next game?

 

Hopefully, he's not actually injured. But it's disconcerting to see a closer talking so much in the dugout after getting pulled lately. In westerns, the wordy nervous guys always seem to get gunned down by the cool silent gunslingers who let their bullets speak.

 

I haven't noticed him talking in the bullpen, but it's pretty obvious what his problem is. He's lost that great knuckle curve which, in tandem with a 97-98 mph fastball, devastated opposing hitters. He never really had great command, so he can't count on hitting corners.

 

Your enumeration of his August stats confirm what we see during the games.

 

I would sympathize with Barnes had he not just signed a hefty two year extension, which should be enough to allow him to enjoy his retirement whenever that begins.

[mvp 78]

Hard to type after pulling out all my fingernails last night. Not only can't Barnes close anymore, right now he can't pitch. The Wild Card Sox just can't afford to use him in any leverage -- fastballs in the strike zone are bat-finders, and the last time he threw a curve that didn't bounce was before they banned the sticky stuff.

 

August is annually the worst month of his eight-year career, with by far his highest batting average and OPS against, highest WHIP, highest ERA... with twice as many HRs allowed than any other month. If the Sox don't IL Barnes with some phantom injury so he can "rehab", maybe they should use him as an opener in Houck's next game?

 

Hopefully, he's not actually injured. But it's disconcerting to see a closer talking so much in the dugout after getting pulled lately. In westerns, the wordy nervous guys always seem to get gunned down by the cool silent gunslingers who let their bullets speak.

 

I don't think they even need to phantom DL him. They had Valdez on this roster for a long time and barely used him. Just do that with Barnes.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't think they even need to phantom DL him. They had Valdez on this roster for a long time and barely used him. Just do that with Barnes.

 

My logic with the phantom IL is that it could get Barnsie a couple "rehab" stints in Wooster to hopefully right his world. The IL spares the humiliation of an official demotion, and lets him work on regaining his confidence -- instead of just sitting and watching in the big league bullpen every night before he finally gets back on the mound in center of diamond attention.

[mvp 78]

My logic with the phantom IL is that it could get Barnsie a couple "rehab" stints in Wooster to hopefully right his world. The IL spares the humiliation of an official demotion, and lets him work on regaining his confidence -- instead of just sitting and watching in the big league bullpen every night before he finally gets back on the mound in center of diamond attention.

 

I think I'd want him working directly with Vaz/Plawecki/Dave Bush rather than going down to AAA and working with new guys.

[notin]

My logic with the phantom IL is that it could get Barnsie a couple "rehab" stints in Wooster to hopefully right his world. The IL spares the humiliation of an official demotion, and lets him work on regaining his confidence -- instead of just sitting and watching in the big league bullpen every night before he finally gets back on the mound in center of diamond attention.

 

Would having him face AAA lineups - the players he already knows he should cruise through - really bolster his confidence? And what happens to his confidence if he doesn’t cruise through them?

[moonslav59]

Just give him 2-3 days off and use him in a low leverage situation his next game.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Would having him face AAA lineups - the players he already knows he should cruise through - really bolster his confidence? And what happens to his confidence if he doesn’t cruise through them?

 

He needs to re-establish his curveball. Right now he can't hit the side of himself with it. MLB batters all made it to the top level because they can hit fastballs. Barnes knows that, obviously, and is walking guys because every time he challenges someone, his gas gets vaporized.

[iortiz]

Just give him 2-3 days off and use him in a low leverage situation his next game.

 

Why to give him 2-3 days off and the use him only in low leverage situations if pressure is not a skill? lol

 

You are a mass of contradictions moon lol

[jacksonianmarch]

Multiple issues with Barnes.

 

1. He lost fastball command up. When you throw 99, controlling the upper part of the strike zone is key. Far easier to drop the head of the bat on a ball than rise to catch one.

 

2. He lost breaking ball command entirely.

 

3. He’s lost all confidence. He’s not a standard closer. Most closers can get gut punched one day and come out and dominate the next. Barnes is a front runner and soft as puppy poo. When s*** doesn’t go his way, he turtles. That’s not really something you can fix. It’s a mentality that he just doesn’t have.

 

 

If I was Cora, I’d bring him into a low leverage situation and tell him you can only throw high fastballs. That’s it. Once he regains confidence in his fastball, the breaking ball will come back

[iortiz]

Multiple issues with Barnes.

 

1. He lost fastball command up. When you throw 99, controlling the upper part of the strike zone is key. Far easier to drop the head of the bat on a ball than rise to catch one.

 

2. He lost breaking ball command entirely.

 

3. He’s lost all confidence. He’s not a standard closer. Most closers can get gut punched one day and come out and dominate the next. Barnes is a front runner and soft as puppy poo. When s*** doesn’t go his way, he turtles. That’s not really something you can fix. It’s a mentality that he just doesn’t have.

 

 

If I was Cora, I’d bring him into a low leverage situation and tell him you can only throw high fastballs. That’s it. Once he regains confidence in his fastball, the breaking ball will come back

Number 3 is blasphemy at talksox.com lol

 

Barnes hasn't been a full-time closer; BUT it's still early to say he does not have mental skills to handle pressure.

 

If he keeps s***ing the bed moving forward in the ninth, then he will likely never get the job as closer again, but could be oks as Set up or other role in the middle of the BP which is not minor thing either.

 

As I said, handling the ninth consistently is not for everybody even if you have "good stuff".

[Kimmi]

I'm not worried about Barnes going forward. He's the same pitcher he has always been. He's the modern version of Bob Stanley.

 

Barnes will be okay.

[Kimmi]

Wow.

 

Not just a AA lineup, but a Double AA lineup…

 

Wouldn't that be a AAAA lineup?

[Kimmi]

Does that mean they were all AAAA players, or is my math wrong again?

 

Ha.

[mvp 78]

Wouldn't that be a AAAA lineup?

 

No.

[Bellhorn04]

Bumped to revisit reactions!

[a700hitter]

Bumped to revisit reactions!

I didn’t remember these reactions, because I didn’t participate in this thread. I thought the move by Bloom was out of character, and not a particularly good move at that. I had stated prior to the 20121 season that I thought that Barnes was 2 years past his expiration date. It looks like the group of Bloomies who posted in this thread were misguided in their optimism about the move. This was not a bargain, and to mention Barnes in the same sentence as Kimbrel is close to blasphemy.

[dgalehouse]

Closing ain't easy. There is a very short list of guys who have been able to do it at a high level for any length of time.

[notin]

I didn’t remember these reactions, because I didn’t participate in this thread. I thought the move by Bloom was out of character, and not a particularly good move at that. I had stated prior to the 20121 season that I thought that Barnes was 2 years past his expiration date. It looks like the group of Bloomies who posted in this thread were misguided in their optimism about the move. This was not a bargain, and to mention Barnes in the same sentence as Kimbrel is close to blasphemy.

 

 

Barnes has thrown a total of 17 innings since signing this contract. In the first 8 of those innings, he had a 1.13 ERA and .485 OPSA.

 

His collapse was all of 9 innings, folks. Nine innings total. Terrible innings, yes. But still only 9 innings. Injury? Fatigue? Not sure but declaring him dead just yet might be a tad premature…

[dgalehouse]

Barnes has thrown a total of 17 innings since signing this contract. In the first 8 of those innings, he had a 1.13 ERA and .485 OPSA.

 

His collapse was all of 9 innings, folks. Nine innings total. Terrible innings, yes. But still only 9 innings. Injury? Fatigue? Not sure but declaring him dead just yet might be a tad premature…

Matt Barnes has been around a while now. His ability and his limitations have been pretty well established.

[a700hitter]

Barnes has thrown a total of 17 innings since signing this contract. In the first 8 of those innings, he had a 1.13 ERA and .485 OPSA.

 

His collapse was all of 9 innings, folks. Nine innings total. Terrible innings, yes. But still only 9 innings. Injury? Fatigue? Not sure but declaring him dead just yet might be a tad premature…

Decreased velocity? Leaving him on the pen in an extra inning opening day against the Yankees? Both are cause for concern. I felt that his 1st half last year was an aberration and suspicious. How well did he do after the sticky stuff was outlawed?

[Deja Doh]

ERA is about the worst stat to use for a RP'er. Even using ERA+ or ERA- is not as good as using OPS Against or other stats.

 

Barnes was very good from 2017-2020 combined. Even 2020 saw a .705 OPS against. While that is not "very good," my point was that from 2017-2020 he was- not every second or minute, but a 127 ERA+ is certainly very good.

 

It is 27% better than the league norm after adjustments are made for park and other factors.

 

If he was a FA, this winter, after posting a 127 ERA+ in 2021, I think he'd have gotten $8M x 2, or at least something close to it.

 

No way am I claiming he was 2021 elite from 2017-2020, but he was very good.

 

Out of 218 RP'ers with 100+ IP from 2017-2020, here's how fangraphs ranks Barnes. (Note: fangraphs is pretty harsh on pitchers who walk a lot of batters)

 

26th in fWAR at 3.4

15th xFIP at 3.12 (some might say this is close to elite)

13th in K% at 34.1%

29th in K%/BB% at 22.3%

 

To be fair, these rankings look "good" not 'very good:"

86th in ERA- at 86

122nd in WHIP at 1.30

 

I can see someone thinking he was good and not "very good," but I think I have evidence enough to say "very good."

 

 

He was good until he signed that contract.

[notin]

Decreased velocity? Leaving him on the pen in an extra inning opening day against the Yankees? Both are cause for concern. I felt that his 1st half last year was an aberration and suspicious. How well did he do after the sticky stuff was outlawed?

 

MLB banned sticky stuff on June 21.

 

From that date until his last 9 IP of his season in which he totally fell apart, Barnes threw 17 1P and had a 1.15 ERA and a .530 OPSA.

 

I have no idea if he used sticky stuff ever, or if he continued to after the ban. But his collapse certainly didn’t coincide with the ban like it did for Richards and Perez.

 

As for his usage and potential over usage, certainly also a potential factor. Especially after the shortened 2020 season.

 

2021 was a career year for him, but his contract also essentially paid him like Joe Kelly, another pitcher not exactly known for his consistent performance. But as of right now, I’m very hesitant to say his days may be over

[mvp 78]

MLB banned sticky stuff on June 21.

 

From that date until his last 9 IP of his season in which he totally fell apart, Barnes threw 17 1P and had a 1.15 ERA and a .530 OPSA.

 

I have no idea if he used sticky stuff ever, or if he continued to after the ban. But his collapse certainly didn’t coincide with the ban like it did for Richards and Perez.

 

As for his usage and potential over usage, certainly also a potential factor. Especially after the shortened 2020 season.

 

2021 was a career year for him, but his contract also essentially paid him like Joe Kelly, another pitcher not exactly known for his consistent performance. But as of right now, I’m very hesitant to say his days may be over

 

We've discussed before that he just has terrible career AUG numbers. For some reason, he falls apart every August.

[vegasbob]

Matt Barnes brings out the defenders and Offenders like no other Sox right now. I am satisfied with having disliked his pitching style and mental makeup for multi-years. And yes he had a great half season in 2021, seemingly having righted himself. Not really !

[mvp 78]

Matt Barnes brings out the defenders and Offenders like no other Sox right now. I am satisfied with having disliked his pitching style and mental makeup for multi-years. And yes he had a great half season in 2021, seemingly having righted himself. Not really !

 

It's really hard to know what Barnes' deal is. The only thing anyone can truly say is that he's not as dependable as you'd like him to be. He's not been great since signing the extension, but I'm not sure that's the reason.

[notin]

We've discussed before that he just has terrible career AUG numbers. For some reason, he falls apart every August.

 

My first thought is that points to a physical issue. He just wears down.

 

But it’s not like I’ve ever diagnosed the guy…

[mvp 78]

My first thought is that points to a physical issue. He just wears down.

 

But it’s not like I’ve ever diagnosed the guy…

 

Just that damn crack Red Sox medical staff!

[Maxbialystock]

Bumped to revisit reactions!

 

Great bump and fascinating discussion thereafter--thanks to everyone else.

 

jacksoniamarch as usual pulls no punches, but was basically right, I think. When his fastball and that great curve were working, Barnes was astounding and well worth the extension. When a crack in his armor appeared, Barnes kind of folded, and here we are in April 2022 wondering whether he will ever make it back to that level.

 

For the record, I was completely in favor of raising Barnes' salary and extending him 2 years. A bargain closer, I thought--and I was wrong.

 

Overall, I hasten to add, I think Bloom and Cora did a great job last year fielding a competitive Sox team that beat the Yankees in the wild card playoff and the Rays (with their 100-62 record and +206 run differential) in the ALDS before finally going down to the Astros in the ALCS.