Barnes extended

[harmony]

But you kept using Barnes' whole career numbers as the guide.

 

How many RP'ers average a 2-3 WAR per season over their whole career?

Matt Barnes is a good reliever who landed two-year, $18.75 million contract for 2022 and 2023.

 

This year Barnes has already posted 1.7 fWAR, valued at $13.8 million, but FWIW ZiPS projects Barnes with 2022 and 2023 fWAR of 0.6 and 0.6:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#zips-3-year-projections

 

This year 0.6 fWAR is worth about $5 million.

[iortiz]

Okay.If you think Mo was just "very good" then I can see not wanting to call Barnes "very good."

 

Mo was the best, but I guess if you are just very good and everyone else sucks, it doesn't make you elite, right?

 

12 seasons over a 2 fWAR, including 7 straight.

17 seasons over 1.2 in an 18 year stretch.

 

Just "very good."

 

Okay.

 

Very good is a great thing moon lol

 

What did I miss?

 

Somehow you and mvp are trying to minimize the adjetive.

[moonslav59]

Matt Barnes is a good reliever who landed two-year, $18.75 million contract for 2022 and 2023.

 

This year Barnes has already posted 1.7 fWAR, valued at $13.8 million, but FWIW ZiPS projects Barnes with 2022 and 2023 fWAR of 0.6 and 0.6:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#zips-3-year-projections

 

This year 0.6 fWAR is worth about $5 million.

 

harmony, you know very well those projections are always very conservative. The probably project Devers to have an .820 OPS.

 

The debate we are having is not about 2022, It's about pre 2021 Barnes in various time frames.

 

It started with my point about him being worth this recent contract even without the 2021 numbers.

 

I think he was, but it's a close call.

 

Posting 2021 numbers and 2022-2023projections have nothing to do with with the statement you responded to.

[iortiz]

Matt Barnes is a good reliever who landed two-year, $18.75 million contract for 2022 and 2023.

 

This year Barnes has already posted 1.7 fWAR, valued at $13.8 million, but FWIW ZiPS projects Barnes with 2022 and 2023 fWAR of 0.6 and 0.6:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#zips-3-year-projections

 

This year 0.6 fWAR is worth about $5 million.

He is on pace to post something around 3.2 fWAR this year. He never ever was that close to that figure which is very good.

 

IMO nobody thought Barnes was going to be this good —3.2 fWAR.

[Bellhorn04]

Matt Barnes is a good reliever who landed two-year, $18.75 million contract for 2022 and 2023.

 

This year Barnes has already posted 1.7 fWAR, valued at $13.8 million, but FWIW ZiPS projects Barnes with 2022 and 2023 fWAR of 0.6 and 0.6:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#zips-3-year-projections

 

This year 0.6 fWAR is worth about $5 million.

 

Regardless of those projections, I think Barnes is perceived as a guy who may have finally reached his potential, and that's why people think it was a good price. Time will tell.

 

To be perfectly honest I'm a little concerned about the sticky stuff issue.

[harmony]

He is on pace to post something around 3.2 fWAR this year. He never ever was that close to that figure which is very good.

 

IMO nobody thought Barnes was going to be this good —3.2 fWAR.

ZiPS, Steamer and FGDC project Matt Barnes to finish this season with 2.1, 2.3 and 2.5 fWAR, respectively:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#dashboard

 

That's a good season for a reliever.

[iortiz]

Regardless of those projections, I think Barnes is perceived as a guy who may have finally reached his potential, and that's why people think it was a good price. Time will tell.

 

To be perfectly honest I'm a little concerned about the sticky stuff issue.

 

Since then I think he has struggled a bit, hasn’t he?

[moonslav59]

He is on pace to post something around 3.2 fWAR this year. He never ever was that close to that figure which is very good.

 

IMO nobody thought Barnes was going to be this good —3.2 fWAR.

 

Yes, and nobody expected even half that (1.6).

 

I did expect 1.0 to 1.3 and liked him better than Ottavino as our closer on opening day, despite Ottavino's better numbers in many categories.

 

I think most here wanted Barnes over Ottavino, but weren't happy with either as the 2021 closer.

 

Barnes sure shut us up!

 

(Ottavino has won us over, too, after a slow start.)

[mvp 78]

Regardless of those projections, I think Barnes is perceived as a guy who may have finally reached his potential, and that's why people think it was a good price. Time will tell.

 

To be perfectly honest I'm a little concerned about the sticky stuff issue.

 

No, Barnes big change is first pitch strikes, not rpms.

[iortiz]

ZiPS, Steamer and FGDC project Matt Barnes to finish this season with 2.1, 2.3 and 2.5 fWAR, respectively:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/matt-barnes/12863/stats?position=P#dashboard

 

That's a good season for a reliever.

Oh yeah… BUT if he finishes with that figure he will likely not be this good in the second half.

[iortiz]

Yes, and nobody expected even half that (1.6).

 

I did expect 1.0 to 1.3 and liked him better than Ottavino as our closer on opening day, despite Ottavino's better numbers in many categories.

 

I think most here wanted Barnes over Ottavino, but weren't happy with either as the 2021 closer.

 

Barnes sure shut us up!

 

(Ottavino has won us over, too, after a slow start.)

 

100% agree.

[moonslav59]

Since then I think he has struggled a bit, hasn’t he?

 

Quite a few have, too.

 

Here are his ERA numbers from these chosen time frames (baseball ref does not give OPS Against)

 

2.49 from opening day to June 5th.

4.76 from June 5 to June 24.

1.29 from June 25 to July 15.

 

Maybe he's got over the blip.

 

WHIP

0.63

1.76

1.14

 

Maybe not.

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by moonslav59

[iortiz]

Quite a few have, too.

 

Here are his ERA numbers from these chosen time frames (baseball ref does not give OPS Against)

 

2.49 from opening day to June 5th.

4.76 from June 5 to June 24.

1.29 from June 25 to July 15.

 

Maybe he's got over the blip.

 

 

 

 

I think his WHIP has increased and his SO/W has decreased a bit since then which is my main concern. If true, his command could be a question mark.

 

In the ASG he didn’t look well and was very lucky. Sure it was an exhibition game against the cream of baseball, but I think he hasn’t been that sharp lately.

[moonslav59]

I think his WHIP has increased and his SO/W has decreased a bit since then which is my main concern. If true, his command could be a question mark.

 

In the ASG he didn’t look well and was very lucky. Sure it was an exhibition game against the cream of baseball, but I think he hasn’t been that sharp lately.

 

No doubt, Barnes looked better in April and May.

 

I'm hopeful his last few games doing a little better is a sign of better things to come.

[notin]

Fangraphs' fwar rule-of-thump say that if you post something in between 1 to 2 fWAR points you are considered a role player. If you post something around 0-1 you are a scrub player.

 

Baserd on that, Matt Barnes since 2014, has been 2 times a role player (and closer to be a scrub than solid which is the next level) and 4 times a scrub player. That's it. That's closer to bad than good in my book.

 

That is very very very far from being very good folks.

 

Relief pitchers are all role players by definition.

 

If you’re using fWAR to compare relief pitchers to other players, bear in mind this means you are saying that the greatest relief pitcher of all time , Mariano Rivera (19 seasons, 39.1 fWAR) is the same value as Gary Gaetti (19 seasons, 39.0 fWAR)

[moonslav59]

Relief pitchers are all role players by definition.

 

If you’re using fWAR to compare relief pitchers to other players, bear in mind this means you are saying that the greatest relief pitcher of all time , Mariano Rivera (19 seasons, 39.1 fWAR) is the same value as Gary Gaetti (19 seasons, 39.0 fWAR)

 

Great point, and while Gaetti was pretty good, no way were these two equals.

[mvp 78]

Relief pitchers are all role players by definition.

 

If you’re using fWAR to compare relief pitchers to other players, bear in mind this means you are saying that the greatest relief pitcher of all time , Mariano Rivera (19 seasons, 39.1 fWAR) is the same value as Gary Gaetti (19 seasons, 39.0 fWAR)

 

Who are you to doubt Gaetti's ability to close out a game?

[Hugh2]

No doubt, Barnes looked better in April and May.

 

I'm hopeful his last few games doing a little better is a sign of better things to come.

 

He's also on pace for a career-high in appearances and innings pitched. Barnes has been overworked.

 

This is why Houck is an important addition IMO.

[Hugh2]

Um, I would take Gary Gaetti in his prime over Mariano Rivera any day.

[Bellhorn04]

Um, I would take Gary Gaetti in his prime over Mariano Rivera any day.

 

Not a fan of closers?

[Hugh2]

Not a fan of closers?

 

I'm a huge fan of closers. I'm just a fan of players who add more value to a team. That's how you win world series.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm a huge fan of closers. I'm just a fan of players who add more value to a team. That's how you win world series.

 

I think Rivera was on more WS winners than Gaetti.

[Hugh2]

I think Rivera was on more WS winners than Gaetti.

 

Heath Hembree has more world series wins than Mike Trout.

[Bellhorn04]

Heath Hembree has more world series wins than Mike Trout.

 

OK, well, to get right down to it, I think Rivera was an extremely valuable player. And notwithstanding a couple of rightfully famous blown saves, Rivera's postseason resume is incredible.

[Hugh2]

OK, well, to get right down to it, I think Rivera was an extremely valuable player. And notwithstanding a couple of rightfully famous blown saves, Rivera's postseason resume is incredible.

 

Oh absolutely.

[mvp 78]

I think Rivera was on more WS winners than Gaetti.

 

And you're going to knock his 852 career OPS in the World Series? Also, how many gold gloves did Mariano win? 4 less than Gaetti?

 

Rivera played in only 36 innings in the World Series, Gaetti played in 63. 63 is bigger than 36!

[mvp 78]

Um, I would take Gary Gaetti in his prime over Mariano Rivera any day.

 

What about 2000 BOSOX legend Gary Gaetti?

[notin]

Not a fan of closers?

 

Even if you're a fan of closers, they're not where you start building a team. They're like the dessert of your pitching staff. You need a team/dinner in front of them before you can enjoy them...

Edited July 16, 2021 by notin

[notin]

What about 2000 BOSOX legend Gary Gaetti?

 

Or 1990 Minnesota Gaetti, when he came to Fenway and became the only player in MLB history to start two triple plays in one game...

[notin]

OK, well, to get right down to it, I think Rivera was an extremely valuable player. And notwithstanding a couple of rightfully famous blown saves, Rivera's postseason resume is incredible.

 

But iortiz was applying the fWAR standards for position players to a reliever to minimize Barnes' role on the team. If you use Barnes fWAR that way, you are basically saying Rivera = Gaetti, as their careers were virtually identical with regards to fWAR...