A Realistic View at 2021: Part I

[moonslav59]

There are other guys on the 26 man roster worse than Andriese, namely Brice.

 

Yes, and Valdez, Whitlock and maybe Taylor and Sawamura, too.

[mvp 78]

Yes, and Valdez, Whitlock and maybe Taylor and Sawamura, too.

 

I'd keep Whitlock, Taylor and Sawamura over Andriese for sure. Valdez? I'm not a fan, but I want to see one more year out of him.

 

Typically these situations work themselves out due to injury or bad performance. I don't think they need to dump Andriese do to a roster crunch.

[notin]

Andriese pitched multiple innings in STing and will likely be our long man, so moving him to starter, if needed, seems like choice #1, if someone goes down. Choice 2 could be Houck, Seabold & Whitlock.

 

Andriese is the guy for when someone misses a single start or if there is a double header. But if someone if gong on the Injured List, it might be Houck or Seabold instead...

[kenmeister]

I think this will be the ultimate fate of Houck - bullpen arm. Hey, that slider is the stuff of closers.

 

Right now, toying with making him a starter is fine, and especially since he is a depth starter. Starters are harder to come by than relievers. But I think Houck ends up in the pen, possibly as a high leverage reliever if not a flat out closer...

 

I've been saying all offseason we won't have a chance of contending without a closer, and Houck could be a very good closer this year. He might develop that third pitch and be an above average starter next year, so it's a question of how best to utilize him.

[notin]

I've been saying all offseason we won't have a chance of contending without a closer, and Houck could be a very good closer this year. He might develop that third pitch and be an above average starter next year, so it's a question of how best to utilize him.

 

I’m ok with Houck as a closer, but I’m on record as saying that particular role is overrated...

[a700hitter]

I’m ok with Houck as a closer, but I’m on record as saying that particular role is overrated...

Mo served pointless role for the Yankees. They should have converted him to an Outfielder.

[Bellhorn04]

Mo served pointless role for the Yankees. They should have converted him to an Outfielder.

 

The thing about Mo was, he had no problem whatsoever if he had to get 4,5 outs or even more for the save. Check out his playoff logs in particular. That really made him special.

 

I think notin is talking about the typical modern closer who only expects to pitch the 9th inning.

[Swiharts Ghost]

I’m ok with Houck as a closer, but I’m on record as saying that particular role is overrated...

 

I can’t give up on this kid as a starter he’s too damn talented and don’t want to mess his head up closing .

[notin]

Mo served pointless role for the Yankees. They should have converted him to an Outfielder.

 

Well, they did try him as a starter first.

 

Just because someone is the greatest ever at some task doesn't make the task more important. Somewhere out there, someone can lay claim to the title of World's Greatest Bag Boy...

[notin]

I can’t give up on this kid as a starter he’s too damn talented and don’t want to mess his head up closing .

 

Don't lose any sleep over it. It's not your job

[notin]

The thing about Mo was, he had no problem whatsoever if he had to get 4,5 outs or even more for the save. Check out his playoff logs in particular. That really made him special.

 

I think notin is talking about the typical modern closer who only expects to pitch the 9th inning.

 

Bingo.

 

I would rather see a team's best reliever used when the game is actually on the line as opposed to being reserved for the final 3 to 4 outs.

[Nick]

Bingo.

 

I would rather see a team's best reliever used when the game is actually on the line as opposed to being reserved for the final 3 to 4 outs.

 

Especially with 3 run lead.....ugh. Did you say save?

[moonslav59]

Bingo.

 

I would rather see a team's best reliever used when the game is actually on the line as opposed to being reserved for the final 3 to 4 outs.

 

I agree 100%

[notin]

Especially with 3 run lead.....ugh. Did you say save?

 

Yeah I guess I am not so impressed when a closer comes in to get the final 3 outs of a game with a 3 run lead and the 6-7-8 or 7-8-9 hitters coming up. Especially since this means the set up guy was facing the 3-4-5 or 4-5-6 hitters just one inning before...

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah I guess I am not so impressed when a closer comes in to get the final 3 outs of a game with a 3 run lead and the 6-7-8 or 7-8-9 hitters coming up.

 

I mostly agree. And getting a "save" for doing that just shows what a dumb stat it is. On the other hand, it's still a job that needs to be done. And even if it's the 7-8-9 hitters, there's a strong chance you're getting a pinch hitter or two. And if you put a man on base you're back to the top of the order. But in those examples, it's a job you can get your second-best reliever to do.

[notin]

I mostly agree. And getting a "save" for doing that just shows what a dumb stat it is. On the other hand, it's still a job that needs to be done. And even if it's the 7-8-9 hitters, there's a strong chance you're getting a pinch hitter or two. And if you put a man on base you're back to the top of the order. But in those examples, it's a job you can get your second-best reliever to do.

 

Exactly. Like I said, if the closer is facing the 7-8-9 hitter, in many cases, that means someone else was facing the 4-5-6 hitters. Who really did the better job?

 

But teams for years have geared the bullpen around the "save" stat when in many cases, the true hero was guy out there getting the largely unheralded hold....

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Exactly. Like I said, if the closer is facing the 7-8-9 hitter, in many cases, that means someone else was facing the 4-5-6 hitters. Who really did the better job?

 

But teams for years have geared the bullpen around the "save" stat when in many cases, the true hero was guy out there getting the largely unheralded hold....

 

Holds should be Saves, if a guy is facing top hitters in a tight game or anyone with tying runs on base. Three-batter 9ths with a big lead should be Closures.

[notin]

Holds should be Saves, if a guy is facing top hitters in a tight game or anyone with tying runs on base. Three-batter 9ths with a big lead should be Closures.

 

Holds really are saves. The definition of a hold is exactly the same as a save except for the whole "final" part. And if a pitcher fails to get a hold, the statistic he is credited with is a Blown Save.

 

But closers get held in a whole different regard. Not just by fans, but also by GMs when it comes to determining paychecks...

[notin]

Holds should be Saves, if a guy is facing top hitters in a tight game or anyone with tying runs on base. Three-batter 9ths with a big lead should be Closures.

 

Also worth pointing out, for a while there was a statistic called "Tough Saves" that was not an official stat, but was tabulated by Rolaids when they were doing to Relief Man Award. (Remember that?) A Tough Save occurred when the closer came in with the tying run on base. And every year the league leader in Tough Saves would have like maybe 4. So a closer would get 35-40 saves, but only maybe 4 Tough Saves.

 

The Tough Save was only tracked from 2000 through 2012. The record in a season is 8, held by J.J. Putz in 2007. That record total is the only time a pitcher was credited with more than 5 Tough Saves in a season.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolaids_Relief_Man_Award

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Holds really are saves. The definition of a hold is exactly the same as a save except for the whole "final" part. And if a pitcher fails to get a hold, the statistic he is credited with is a Blown Save.

 

But closers get held in a whole different regard. Not just by fans, but also by GMs when it comes to determining paychecks...

 

No doubt it's about the "respect" that equates with the status. There's a reason Barnes -- a free agent -- said he prefers to close this year. These guys are just so wired by modern bullpen use to aspire to be closers in save situations. Even great relievers like Papelbon and Kimbrel were different pitchers coming into the 8th or tie games. And I'm not looking at stats, just remembering how their focus, counts and accuracy seemed to change.

[mvp 78]

Also worth pointing out, for a while there was a statistic called "Tough Saves" that was not an official stat, but was tabulated by Rolaids when they were doing to Relief Man Award. (Remember that?) A Tough Save occurred when the closer came in with the tying run on base. And every year the league leader in Tough Saves would have like maybe 4. So a closer would get 35-40 saves, but only maybe 4 Tough Saves.

 

The Tough Save was only tracked from 2000 through 2012. The record in a season is 8, held by J.J. Putz in 2007. That record total is the only time a pitcher was credited with more than 5 Tough Saves in a season.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolaids_Relief_Man_Award

 

Rolaids spells relief.

[notin]

No doubt it's about the "respect" that equates with the status. There's a reason Barnes -- a free agent -- said he prefers to close this year. These guys are just so wired by modern bullpen use to aspire to be closers in save situations. Even great relievers like Papelbon and Kimbrel were different pitchers coming into the 8th or tie games. And I'm not looking at stats, just remembering how their focus, counts and accuracy seemed to change.

 

While Kimbrel's numbers are definitely better in the 9th as opposed to the 8th inning, it's not fair to say he was better in the ninth. In that situation, you're drawing a conclusion from 486 innings in one situation versus 29 in the other. Same with Papelbon, who threw 51.2 IP in the 8th inning and 584 IP in the 9th.

 

But the Save is so revered that many call Mariano Rivera the clear cut best relief pitcher ever. I would say there is a very solid argument that Rich Gossage actually was. And I would make an argument that Mariano Rivera is the most overrated player in MLB history (bearing in mind "overrated" just means he gets more credit than he deserves, not that he was never any good or wasn't great).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I would say there is a very solid argument that Rich Gossage actually was. And I would make an argument that Mariano Rivera is the most overrated player in MLB history (bearing in mind "overrated" just means he gets more credit than he deserves, not that he was never any good or wasn't great).

 

Goose was certainly one of the best in the era before relieving was changed forever by Automatic Eck (and I'm not saying Eckersly was better, but that every team since 1988 thought it was better to find or fabricate an Eck of their own).

 

Ah, the Seventies and Eighties... when ace relievers regularly threw multiple innings, and the average game was about 2 1/2 hours long.

 

re. Rivera... in the context of his specialty -- like Eck before him -- he may have also been the best in MLB history at his position: closing. I'm also factoring in his postseasons.

Edited March 19, 2021 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75

[Bellhorn04]

Goose was certainly one of the best in the era before relieving was changed forever by Automatic Eck (and I'm not saying Eckersly was better, but that every team since 1988 thought it was better to find or fabricate an Eck of their own).

 

Ah, the Seventies and Eighties... when ace relievers regularly threw multiple innings, and the average game was about 2 1/2 hours long.

 

re. Rivera... in the context of his specialty -- like Eck before him -- he may have also been the best in MLB history at his position: closing. I'm also factoring in his postseasons.

 

Eck and Rivera are probably the two best closers ever, including the postseason.

 

And yet we remember each of them blowing crucial postseason saves. Eck in 1988 and 1992, Rivera in 2001 and 2004.

[dgalehouse]

Using your closer in a so called " leverage " situation in the 7th inning is an idea that has been kicked around for a few years now. It has never really caught on. I think the reason is that baseball people feel that , with few exceptions, the game is never more " on the line " than it is in the ninth inning. Everything is amped up to the max in the ninth inning.

[Bellhorn04]

Using your closer in a so called " leverage " situation in the 7th inning is an idea that has been kicked around for a few years now. It has never really caught on. I think the reason is that baseball people feel that , with few exceptions, the game is never more " on the line " than it is in the ninth inning. Everything is amped up to the max in the ninth inning.

 

With the notable exception of Andrew Miller and Cody Allen in 2016. Miller was the better pitcher that year, but Tito was using him prior to the 9th and using Allen in the 9th. It worked well, too.

[dgalehouse]

With the notable exception of Andrew Miller and Cody Allen in 2016. Miller was the better pitcher that year, but Tito was using him prior to the 9th and using Allen in the 9th. It worked well, too.

 

Cody Allen had been the closer all season . Tito was a loyal " player's manager " , perhaps to a fault . I think Tito was reluctant to " demote " Allen after Miller was acquired. It worked out okay , but all things being equal , Miller should have closed.

[dgalehouse]

Eck and Rivera are probably the two best closers ever, including the postseason.

 

And yet we remember each of them blowing crucial postseason saves. Eck in 1988 and 1992, Rivera in 2001 and 2004.

 

A lot of folks always seem to focus on the negative. Yaz made the last out in Game 7 of the 1975 World Series and the 1978 playoff game. Failed both times . Choker. And you just could not count on Eck and Mo in the big game.

[notin]

Cody Allen had been the closer all season . Tito was a loyal " player's manager " , perhaps to a fault . I think Tito was reluctant to " demote " Allen after Miller was acquired. It worked out okay , but all things being equal , Miller should have closed.

 

That was also a rare case where the closer was not the best relief pitcher. On most teams, the closer is the best reliever..

[notin]

Goose was certainly one of the best in the era before relieving was changed forever by Automatic Eck (and I'm not saying Eckersly was better, but that every team since 1988 thought it was better to find or fabricate an Eck of their own).

 

Ah, the Seventies and Eighties... when ace relievers regularly threw multiple innings, and the average game was about 2 1/2 hours long.

 

re. Rivera... in the context of his specialty -- like Eck before him -- he may have also been the best in MLB history at his position: closing. I'm also factoring in his postseasons.

 

Gossage once said a one inning save felt cheap to him, and it was too easy.

 

A few years back, back when he was into baseball and not politics, Nate Silver threw out the idea of a new way to evaluate relief pitchers with a stat called the "goose egg." A goose egg was basically an outing in which the reliever entered a close game (lead of 2 runs or less) after the 6th inning and did not give up any earned runs. For every shutout inning, the reliever gets credited with one "goose egg." Per his research, Gossage was the all time leader in goose eggs (and, yes, they were named after him)...