2018 Red Sox cheating scandal

[mvp 78]

Tom Verducci:

 

The Houston Astros (and the many other clubs that weren’t outed by an old teammate) proved you cannot trust teams to deploy rapidly emerging technology through only responsible means.

He means the YANKEES.

[notin]

You have NO clue what the Yankees did or didn't do! You have No clue what the Red Sox did or didn't do. Stop talking out of your A**!

 

That because any rumor about the Red Sox = proof.

 

However, rumors about the Yankees are unsubstantiaed lies, even after Andy Pettitte confesses...

[S5Dewey]

. Hardest FB I ever “saw” was clocked at 98. I quote that because you don’t really see them. They’re a buzz and a pop. Sat on his loopy curve though and took him deep!

The hardest one I ever saw was as a fan up close enough so I could actually see it was a college pitcher at a Regional. I was much younger and had 10/20 vision at the time and I couldn't actually see the ball. It was just a 6" long moving blur. I was sitting directly behind home plate and between innings I went to a ML scout who was there and running a JUGS gun and he said the gun had him at 96.

It was later explained to me that the human eye can't move in a sweeping motion, it moves incrementally, and the normal human eye can't focus anything much faster than 94 mph. That's why it amazes me that hitters are now squaring up balls at 100 mph.

[a700hitter]

The hardest one I ever saw was as a fan up close enough so I could actually see it was a college pitcher at a Regional. I was much younger and had 10/20 vision at the time and I couldn't actually see the ball. It was just a 6" long moving blur. I was sitting directly behind home plate and between innings I went to a ML scout who was there and running a JUGS gun and he said the gun had him at 96.

It was later explained to me that the human eye can't move in a sweeping motion, it moves incrementally, and the normal human eye can't focus anything much faster than 94 mph. That's why it amazes me that hitters are now squaring up balls at 100 mph.

If you haven't already seen it, I recommend the Documentary "Fastball" that goes into depth about the human limits to see and react to these high velocity fastballs and also into the physiology required to generate the velocity.

[harmony]

If you haven't already seen it, I recommend the Documentary "Fastball" that goes into depth about the human limits to see and react to these high velocity fastballs and also into the physiology required to generate the velocity.

[oldtimer]

I'm still playing slow pitch softball and will be 79 very shortly. cheating goes on with teams bending the rules by loading up teams with ringers. Its done in many ways but the result is the team that does it is very hard to beat. Fastballs are no issue with slow pitch and it is more the arc and placement that get batters to mishit. I pitch at times and am no master as placement and avoid walking guys. I don't know of a lot of other cheating going on although some guys may be tempted to use shaved bats. Internal shaving can add distanced to the hit but can result in being banned from SSUSA.

[S5Dewey]

Thanks guys. I've now watched the trailer and I'm anxious to have 1 1/2 uninterrupted hours to see the entire thing. It looks like "required reading" to me.

 

I know this is going to seem obvious to a lot of people but it recently occurred to me that in order for a pitcher to throw the ball 100 mph his hand has to be moving 100 mph at the release point. I think I may have mentioned that I had a chance to play pickup basketball with Sandy Koufax at one time and I noticed then that his left arm was noticeably bigger than his right. That explains a lot.

[Tedballgame]

Per @Brendan Clancy:

 

Carlos Beltran through the years:

 

 

Year Employer Status

 

2014 Yankees Great Guy

2015 Yankees Great Guy

2016 Yankees Great Guy

2017 Astros CHEATER

2018 Yankees Great Guy

 

LOL!

Edited January 18, 2020 by Tedballgame

[jacksonianmarch]

This is where Manfred is most concerned.

 

Pointsbet sports book is refunding all bets in full made on the Yanks to make the WS in 2019 due to cheating allegations.

 

Others will likely be forced to follow and I’d assume LAD WS bets from 17-18 will be refunded too. Manfred wants to dictate the narrative on MLB betting, but until he fixes the cheating issues, he won’t be able to

[Bellhorn04]

This is where Manfred is most concerned.

 

Pointsbet sports book is refunding all bets in full made on the Yanks to make the WS in 2019 due to cheating allegations.

 

They're obviously doing this to appease some of their customers, which is understandable.

 

But they might be opening Pandora's Box, especially if more teams get outed for cheating.

[jacksonianmarch]

They're obviously doing this to appease some of their customers, which is understandable.

 

But they might be opening Pandora's Box, especially if more teams get outed for cheating.

 

That is the problem. Yes, they are appeasing customers. They are also setting a precedent. I wouldn't be surprised if people who lost enormous amounts of money seek legal retribution for the cheating allegations

[jung]

That is the problem. Yes, they are appeasing customers. They are also setting a precedent. I wouldn't be surprised if people who lost enormous amounts of money seek legal retribution for the cheating allegations

 

On top of that, MLB is setting itself up for a more in-depth discussion with the legal sports books they want to partner with about cheating than they are prepared to have.

 

Honestly I still think its the PA that has to bail the Sport out. The Owners won't do it and the League won't do it. The PA has finally got to stop ignoring pitting part of its membership against another part of its membership when it comes to inorganic forms of cheating. The Organic stuff can be dealt with. But the use of electronics and video has just got to stop. Pit the players against their coaches and Managers if one group has to be pitted against another. The pitcher/hitter dual is so much the core of the game and pitchers have to do so much to care for the gift they have been given, the ability to throw hard and throw well that it just has to be dealt with IMO. Without pitchers doing what they do, we don't even have a game.

 

The other thing this has forced me to contend with is the number of times in the last few years you see the frustration on pitchers that just know there is no way a particular hitter should have hit a particular pitch that well. That the hitter in question had no business hitting that particular pitch UNLESS he knew it was coming and sold out on it. Add that to the frustration of watching hitters just barely touch the rocket ship baseball, one handed and hit them to the opposite field to the deepest part of a baseball park and out of there and something has got to give. I don't think I have ever seen so many pitchers so frustrated on the mound and I think it sucks even as a former hitter. I think the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Edited January 18, 2020 by jung

[jung]

Thanks guys. I've now watched the trailer and I'm anxious to have 1 1/2 uninterrupted hours to see the entire thing. It looks like "required reading" to me.

 

I know this is going to seem obvious to a lot of people but it recently occurred to me that in order for a pitcher to throw the ball 100 mph his hand has to be moving 100 mph at the release point. I think I may have mentioned that I had a chance to play pickup basketball with Sandy Koufax at one time and I noticed then that his left arm was noticeably bigger than his right. That explains a lot.

 

I have actually seen Fastball. You will enjoy it. Pay attention to the segment on Nolan Ryan and watch how his body matures over time and the ungodly force he turns into on the mound once he grows into his body and can control his throwing talent without losing velocity. When I saw him close up he was at that point a BIG man controlling what amounted to a bomb going off on the mound every FB.

 

You will likely enjoy the actual science of what the hitter's brain is actually doing to process data in an effort to hit a baseball and how much harder it is to do as the velo climbs.

[Monster24]

That is the problem. Yes, they are appeasing customers. They are also setting a precedent. I wouldn't be surprised if people who lost enormous amounts of money seek legal retribution for the cheating allegations

 

Did bettors who bet on the Saints get a refund last year? Bad calls, cheating whatever good look taking something like that to court. Obviously the Astros had an elaborate sign stealing system and we will see to what extent the Red Sox had.

 

See tweets and comments ( mostly from Dodger and Yankee fans)who want titles stripped,asterisk and so on.

I am in no way absolving the cheating but so far most examples I have seen happened in regular season games.

Now maybe one can argue it helped the Astros/Sox get a better seed but if the reports are true that in at least the Sox case they couldn’t use the replay room in the playoffs then the Yanks/Dodgers don’t have a beef in 2018. Unless some evidence comes out that something happened in the 2018 world series(other than Roberts mismanaging) Dodger fans need to stop making excuses.

Again not excusing the behavior but we really need to find out A good estimation of how many times hitters were tipped to form a good opinion and come up with appropriate outrage. Was it certain hitters. Certain games,in what ballparks , playoffs, regular season, late game situations?

In my opinion fans of the losing teams are using this as an excuse for everything,

Of course the domestic abuser only gave up the HR to Altuve because of this, Yanks couldn’t have possibly to Sox in 2018

If they didn’t cheat.

Fine with the firings and personally think players should have been disciplined too but I am waiting to dust settles and everything is investigated before making final judgement.

[Tedballgame]

J.D. Martinez is adamant the Red Sox will be cleared of any wrong doing for 2018 season. If that turns out to be true, a lot of people on this board will be eating a lot of crow.

[mvp 78]

J.D. Martinez is adamant the Red Sox will be cleared of any wrong doing for 2018 season. If that turns out to be true, a lot of people on this board will be eating a lot of crow.

 

Nah. They’ll just find something else to whine about.

[harmony]

J.D. Martinez is adamant the Red Sox will be cleared of any wrong doing for 2018 season. If that turns out to be true, a lot of people on this board will be eating a lot of crow.

Four days ago one poster raised the possibility that the 2018 Red Sox would be cleared of any wrongdoing:

 

https://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/19676-Cora-fired?p=1301494#post1301494

 

... only to be accused of being in denial.

[Elktonnick]

Four days ago one poster raised the possibility that the 2018 Red Sox would be cleared of any wrongdoing:

 

https://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/19676-Cora-fired?p=1301494#post1301494

 

... only to be accused of being in denial.

While I will be thrilled if JD is proven correct, I know it ain't over until the fat lady sings. And JD Martinez ain't any fat lady and he certainly is not an unbiased observer in this whole affair.

[jung]

While I will be thrilled if JD is proven correct, I know it ain't over until the fat lady sings. And JD Martinez ain't any fat lady and he certainly is not an unbiased observer in this whole affair.

 

I don't trust the league or the owners as far as I can throw them at this point and I have little confidence that we will get a definitive answer to 2018 regardless of what the eventual report does, vindicates or not. By the same token, nobody is going to be stripping anybody of Championships IMO. Not going to happen here and not going to happen in Houston. However, if anybody wants these Championships to mean anything ever again, they better get this s*** sorted out between the PA, the Owners and the League.

[Slasher9]

I was a pitcher and a 1b. If I knew a batter was cheating I’d hit him square in the head. I haven’t played competitively beyond old man baseball leagues in almost 20 years, but head shots were entirely within the arsenal. I head hunted before and if a team was cheating, I’d have done it again. I’d call my catcher out, have him put down a 2 and then throw as hard as I could up and in. He’d be leaning out over the plate (if he was a RHH) expecting the ball to break away and I’d surprise him.

 

I was hit in the head during a game and the next time I pitched to the pitcher who hit me, I went up and in, curve away, up and in, curve away and struck him out. But only because I put the fear of god in him. They allowed a lot more back then. Now, if a kid even threatens a snowflake with a HBP, you’d get criminal charges!

 

this post right here proves how much of an ******* you really are.

thanks.

[jacksonianmarch]

this post right here proves how much of an ******* you really are.

thanks.

 

Different times man. Would I hit someone in the head now? No way. But when I was 18 and baseball was everything, that was absolutely in the arsenal. I’m not gonna lie here, no need to. I’m nearly 20 years retired from collegiate baseball and still play/pitch in an old mans league. When I hit someone now, I apologize

Edited January 20, 2020 by jacksonianmarch

[S5Dewey]

Different times man. Would I hit someone in the head now? No way. But when I was 18 and baseball was everything, that was absolutely in the arsenal. I’m not gonna lie here, no need to. I’m nearly 20 years retired from collegiate baseball and still play/pitch in an old mans league. When I hit someone now, I apologize

 

Did you happen to help John Grisham write "Calico Joe"? That's exactly how a character in the book set up hitters. He'd throw him two outside, then get him looking and leaning over the plate, and then throw one high and inside knowing that the hitter couldn't get out of the way.

It was portrayed in the book as being possibly the dirtiest thing a player can do in baseball and that hasn't changed.

[a700hitter]

Did you happen to help John Grisham write "Calico Joe"? That's exactly how a character in the book set up hitters. He'd throw him two outside, then get him looking and leaning over the plate, and then throw one high and inside knowing that the hitter couldn't get out of the way.

It was portrayed in the book as being possibly the dirtiest thing a player can do in baseball and that hasn't changed.

I wasn't much of a pitcher, but my approach was the opposite -- the first pitch was up and in at chest level followed by something over the outside half of the plate.

[Slasher9]

I wasn't much of a pitcher, but my approach was the opposite -- the first pitch was up and in at chest level followed by something over the outside half of the plate.

 

thats pitching.

intentionally trying to hit someone in the head with a FB is psychotic...

[jacksonianmarch]

If I was gonna hit someone, I didn’t wait. I hit them first pitch. You had more leeway then. And guys, I’m talking about having thrown Head hunted intentionally maybe twice or three times in my life. It was in the arsenal, but the nuclear option. If I was gonna send a message, it was FB at the butt. The last time I went At the head was in college after our star hitter got ear holed first pitch after hitting a homer his prior AB. It was vs a team from the south that was notorious for it. So I returned the favor

 

But if there was someone cheating off my signs, I’d have had the catcher throw a 2 and go up and in with the heat. Never had to deal with it, but that would have been my 18 yr old mindset

 

Now, if I was gonna toy with someone, I’d throw breaking ball away, fastball up and in, breaking ball away, etc. the goal was to put the fear of god in then, but to actually strike them out

[bkzwhitestrican]

One time in tee ball I hit an infield home run

[notin]

One time in tee ball I hit an infield home run

 

 

Aka a groundball to shortstop with 3 throwing errors...

[bkzwhitestrican]

Aka a groundball to shortstop with 3 throwing errors...

 

There were no errors in tee ball

[Bellhorn04]

One time in tee ball I hit an infield home run

 

Haha...my baseball exploits are like that too.

[notin]

There were no errors in tee ball

 

 

Only in the way they’re scored.

 

But in reality, there are nothing but errors in tee ball...