Sox starting pitching thread

[Slasher9]

It could be argued you've got a lot more time to think about it in the pen.

 

Maybe. I was thinking a reliever doesn’t know he is going into the game until that phone rings and he throws his 15-20 warmup pitches as opposed to a starter who knows he is pitching 5 days in advance.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

It could be argued you've got a lot more time to think about it in the pen.

 

The only pen one has a lot of time to think about things is the State Pen.

[Larry Cook]

Clearly if leftbto his own devises and given enough time, price will let the situation fester in his head and negatively affect his performance. Hence the history of folding like a cheap suit.

 

In my mind, the bullpen is perfect for him in the playoffs. From the time the phone rings until he goes into a game, he does not have sufficient time to work himself into a panic, therefore he just goes in the game and pitches to the best of his abilities without all the drama between his ears.

[devildavid]

To my knowledge, no one has ever denied the existence 'choke' or 'clutch' performances or plays.

 

I believe that there are absolutely players who cannot handle the pressure (chokers). I also believe that those players either do not make it to the big leagues or do not last very long if they do. I do not believe that Price is a choker.

 

What I am denying is the concept of 'clutch' being a sustainable and repeatable skill, in terms of the ability to raise one's game to the next level in high pressure situations. Players who appear to be clutch are simply great players to begin with.

 

If you want to define clutch as the ability not to choke, which many people seem on board with, then I can live with that. But in that case, I would say all major leaguers are clutch.

 

You are right on as usual. What separates talented individuals is composure. So it isn't necessarily the most talented who rise to the top. It takes talent and composure which translates into confidence and consistency.

 

Price has consistently been a top starter in MLB. He just may not be at the Tiant/Schilling/Pedro/Sale level that some may expect of him due to his huge contract. And even those I listed had their moments of failure. My main worry with Price is physical health, age, and the mileage he has already put on his arm. In the pitch count era, he has been a consistent workhorse.

[Slasher9]

Mr. Tingles should continue to duck big games. It’s best for the team....

[Behindenemylines]

Mr. Tingles should continue to duck big games. It’s best for the team....

 

In October they are all big games. Pitching and defense wins championships, and right now I’m a little concerned about the Sox starting pitching. Sale and Porcello are the only two starters that I feel comfortable with right now. You need at least that third pitcher you can count on. Right now in a big game I don’t know what Price, Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz will give you. Until one or two of them shows me something against the better teams I am concerned about the Sox starting pitching.

[S5Dewey]

In October they are all big games. Pitching and defense wins championships, and right now I’m a little concerned about the Sox starting pitching. Sale and Porcello are the only two starters that I feel comfortable with right now. You need at least that third pitcher you can count on. Right now in a big game I don’t know what Price, Rodriguez, Wright, or Pomeranz will give you. Until one or two of them shows me something against the better teams I am concerned about the Sox starting pitching.

 

I think it's natural to be concerned about the pitching staff, but OTOH who's top 3 is any better? I agree about pitching and defense in the post season but OTOH the post season can be a crap shoot too. It wasn't that long ago that the Tigers had the last three season's CY winners in their rotation... and the Tigers didn't win the WS.

 

I like this team. I like the balance of offense and pitching. The thing that concerns me is the infield defense.

[Behindenemylines]

I think it's natural to be concerned about the pitching staff, but OTOH who's top 3 is any better? I agree about pitching and defense in the post season but OTOH the post season can be a crap shoot too. It wasn't that long ago that the Tigers had the last three season's CY winners in their rotation... and the Tigers didn't win the WS.

 

I like this team. I like the balance of offense and pitching. The thing that concerns me is the infield defense.

 

Tigers didn’t have Big Papi though. Without Papi the Sox don’t win the World Series and maybe the Tigers do. Big Papi doesn’t homer the Sox go down two games to none.

[notin]

To my knowledge, no one has ever denied the existence 'choke' or 'clutch' performances or plays.

 

I believe that there are absolutely players who cannot handle the pressure (chokers). I also believe that those players either do not make it to the big leagues or do not last very long if they do. I do not believe that Price is a choker.

 

What I am denying is the concept of 'clutch' being a sustainable and repeatable skill, in terms of the ability to raise one's game to the next level in high pressure situations. Players who appear to be clutch are simply great players to begin with.

 

If you want to define clutch as the ability not to choke, which many people seem on board with, then I can live with that. But in that case, I would say all major leaguers are clutch.

 

 

This has been cited repeatedly.

 

As for all major elaguers being clutch, they hould be by definition. While no one likes to acknowledge it, the highest pressure at-bats and IP come in the minors, where players need to succeed in order to prevent being stranded there for life.

[moonslav59]

Tigers didn’t have Big Papi though. Without Papi the Sox don’t win the World Series and maybe the Tigers do. Big Papi doesn’t homer the Sox go down two games to none.

 

Papi's numbers:

 

.941 Carrer OPS Regular Season

 

.870 Late & Close

.943 High Leverage

.947 Post Season

 

If clutch is rising to the occasion, or dong better than you usually do, when it counts, the numbers show Papi did about as well as he normally did- clutch or no clutch.

 

.870-.947 is damn good and better than most other players, but that was who Papi was- all the time.

 

Now, walk off dramatic HRs, game tying and go ahead HRs and hits near the ends of important games, especially elimination games or clinching games seems to be where Papi did better than his career norm, but those stats are hard to gather and compare to other greats.

 

BTW, Mr. October's numbers...

 

.846 career OPS

.855 High Leverage

.804 Late & Close

.885 Post Season

 

(BA & OBP are lower in Late & Close situations, so it's not about being walked when it counts.)

 

 

 

 

[Kimmi]

I wish you believed in choke so you'd have a definition for it. What you posted there - that a player's physical performance is affected by his mental state - sounds like a definition of choke to me.

 

I "explain" his good performance out of the pen by his not having time to think about it. He doesn't get to stew about the media and fan scrutiny before the game. He's just told, "You're up. Go out there and pitch" and it's easier for him if he hasn't thought about it. But that's just MO.

 

If a catcher has the yips and goes through a period where he has trouble getting the ball back to the mound, I think that's due to something mentally, but I wouldn't say the catcher is choking.

 

If a player has a critically ill child and performs poorly because of it, I think that's due to something mentally/emotionally, but I wouldn't call that choking.

 

If a batter goes into a slump, then that slump starts playing on his mind, causing the slump to become prolonged, there is something going on mentally, but I wouldn't call that choking.

 

There are players who just can't handle the scrutiny of playing in Boston. They play well with other teams, but poorly with Boston. We have seen many of those. I wouldn't call them chokers.

 

There are many instances where a player's performance is negatively affected by his mental state. It doesn't mean that a player choked.

 

All that said, I will grant you that there is a fine line here. As I stated previously, I do believe that some players are chokers. I don't believe that Price is a choker.

[Kimmi]

I wish you believed in choke so you'd have a definition for it. What you posted there - that a player's physical performance is affected by his mental state - sounds like a definition of choke to me.

 

I "explain" his good performance out of the pen by his not having time to think about it. He doesn't get to stew about the media and fan scrutiny before the game. He's just told, "You're up. Go out there and pitch" and it's easier for him if he hasn't thought about it. But that's just MO.

 

As far as Price not having time to think about it as a reliever, I'm not buying that. I get that a reliever doesn't have 5 days to think about a game like a starter does. But usually, relievers have a pretty good idea when they're going to get into a game. Then, the reliever has several innings to sit in the bullpen thinking about about 'not blowing it' when he gets into the game.

[Kimmi]

The baggage is likely lack of self confidence combined with self loathing while putting a tough guy face on for the veneer. I suspect Price and others who have problems with pressure really don't believe they have the right stuff and their conscious mind overrides their actual abilities. Got that from a placard at the Holiday Inn Express last night

 

Haha. It seems to me that Price let the negative media attention and negative social media comments from his first season in Boston get to him. He seems overly sensitive to that criticism, which could be lack of confidence. I don't know.

[Kimmi]

Well he's supposed to do well at least sometimes. No doubt it was a much needed well done job by him. I also noticed that he had a look like "in your face doubters" look on his face when that's what he's supposed to do.

 

Maybe he's more bullpen material. Maybe there's something about starting that gets to him psychologically. I remember Tim Lincecum coming through in the bullpen in the WS after he was looking pretty much washed up. Maybe Price is more sprinter than marathon runner

 

But Price has actually pitched very well in starts this season, except for the Yankees games, especially after getting the carpal tunnel diagnosis.

 

I get that there is no bigger regular season stage than pitching against the Yankees, but Price pitched well in other "big" games. He pitched well against the Angels in LA, at a time when the Angels were playing very well, he pitched well against the Astros who have a very good lineup, and he pitched well against Seattle, who is a wildcard contender.

[Kimmi]

You are right on as usual. What separates talented individuals is composure. So it isn't necessarily the most talented who rise to the top. It takes talent and composure which translates into confidence and consistency.

 

Price has consistently been a top starter in MLB. He just may not be at the Tiant/Schilling/Pedro/Sale level that some may expect of him due to his huge contract. And even those I listed had their moments of failure. My main worry with Price is physical health, age, and the mileage he has already put on his arm. In the pitch count era, he has been a consistent workhorse.

 

Well said David.

 

I think a case could be made that Price pitched well in the playoffs out of the pen because he was well rested. Or on the other side of that, he has not pitched well in the playoffs as a starter due to fatigue.

[Kimmi]

This has been cited repeatedly.

 

As for all major elaguers being clutch, they hould be by definition. While no one likes to acknowledge it, the highest pressure at-bats and IP come in the minors, where players need to succeed in order to prevent being stranded there for life.

 

Yes and yes!

 

I have mentioned before the amount of pressure there must be in the minors, playing before dozens of scouts, knowing that your career is on the line.

[Bellhorn04]

As for all major elaguers being clutch, they hould be by definition. While no one likes to acknowledge it, the highest pressure at-bats and IP come in the minors, where players need to succeed in order to prevent being stranded there for life.

 

It's a different type of pressure though.

 

The definition of pressure you are using here is completely different from the pressure of playing in a critical game at the major league level with millions of people watching, with all the expectations of fans and media and all the negative fallout that can arise from failure in such a game.

[S5Dewey]

If a catcher has the yips and goes through a period where he has trouble getting the ball back to the mound, I think that's due to something mentally, but I wouldn't say the catcher is choking.

 

If a player has a critically ill child and performs poorly because of it, I think that's due to something mentally/emotionally, but I wouldn't call that choking.

 

If a batter goes into a slump, then that slump starts playing on his mind, causing the slump to become prolonged, there is something going on mentally, but I wouldn't call that choking.

 

There are players who just can't handle the scrutiny of playing in Boston. They play well with other teams, but poorly with Boston. We have seen many of those. I wouldn't call them chokers.

 

There are many instances where a player's performance is negatively affected by his mental state. It doesn't mean that a player choked.

 

All that said, I will grant you that there is a fine line here. As I stated previously, I do believe that some players are chokers. I don't believe that Price is a choker.

 

Then we're respectfully (I hope) going to disagree on most of your post. While I agree that a non-baseball related issue (like a sick child) is not choking I see the others as choking. IMO when a player alters his normal physical motion due to a fear of failure...that's choking.

 

In the case of David Price I think he has all the ability in the world. He shows it repeatedly against weaker teams but when asked to face a top echelon team it's in his head and that manifests itself by his making small changes in his delivery. IMO a baseball psychiatrist might work wonders for him.

 

As I said about his relieving, I dunno. It was just a theory. But IMO there's something going on.

 

Interestingly, when I think of players who've played through having a sick child I also think of players who've "played through" their family issues with no loss of effectiveness. Think: Dwight Evans and Craig Kimbrel. Of course I freely admit that there may be others whose family issues have affected their performance but we didn't hear about them

[reYoukilis]

But Price has actually pitched very well in starts this season, except for the Yankees games, especially after getting the carpal tunnel diagnosis.

 

I get that there is no bigger regular season stage than pitching against the Yankees, but Price pitched well in other "big" games. He pitched well against the Angels in LA, at a time when the Angels were playing very well, he pitched well against the Astros who have a very good lineup, and he pitched well against Seattle, who is a wildcard contender.

I hope you're right and would gladly eat my words. I thought I was going to have to because of your said improvement but the Yankees game undid that. I know it must suck for him too but...he can buy the most expensive tissues in the world to cry into to get over it.

[dgalehouse]

" Choking " is a term that has come into common usage , usually in a derogatory manner , and most often for athletes who fail in what we deem " clutch " situations. We can debate it all day. But " anticipatory anxiety " is a very real condition that can effect the performance of even the best athletes at times. Different things can trigger it in different people. It is possible , though not easy , to overcome it.

[reYoukilis]

" Choking " is a term that has come into common usage , usually in a derogatory manner , and most often for athletes who fail in what we deem " clutch " situations. We can debate it all day. But " anticipatory anxiety " is a very real condition that can effect the performance of even the best athletes at times. Different things can trigger it in different people. It is possible , though not easy , to overcome it.

Zito had it when he signed his huge contract but definitely overcame it by being the best pitcher of the WS against rhe Tigers, with Sherzer and Verlander.

[MADSTORK]

And yet we have the third best ERA in the league-and the fourth best SP ERA. Do you think that you have to be #1 in both categories to win a ring? Do your own research and find out how often the #1 ERA staff has won a ring in the past ten years or so. Then get back to me.

 

Regular Season Stats mean jack! Ask the 2001 Mariners who won 116 Games, led MLB in ERA what their World Series Ring size was?

 

Starting Pitching Stats last 2 post seasons 22.2 IP 41 hits 28 Earned Runs says it all.

 

Just think, if the Sox were not cash strapped and traded for Verlander last summer. Grant it, Verlander might not have helped the 17 Sox but he sure would have put Boston as the clear cut favorite to win a Championship this year. You cannot continue to blow massive amounts of payroll on garbage players who limit your flexibility this time of year when your a contending team.

 

IF DeGrom is available ? 3 1 Post season record 2.88 Era 25IP 29K

 

There is zero guarantee of winning a ring, but you need the Flexibility as a GM to GO get that one final piece to put you over the top. EVEN if that one final piece might be a year or two away! Dombrowski made some very good trades but he over spent on a DUD in Price much like he did in Detroit with Cabrera and let Scherzer walk. Post It!

[SoxHop]

Regular Season Stats mean jack! Ask the 2001 Mariners who won 116 Games, led MLB in ERA what their World Series Ring size was?

 

Starting Pitching Stats last 2 post seasons 22.2 IP 41 hits 28 Earned Runs says it all.

 

Just think, if the Sox were not cash strapped and traded for Verlander last summer. Grant it, Verlander might not have helped the 17 Sox but he sure would have put Boston as the clear cut favorite to win a Championship this year. You cannot continue to blow massive amounts of payroll on garbage players who limit your flexibility this time of year when your a contending team.

 

IF DeGrom is available ? 3 1 Post season record 2.88 Era 25IP 29K

 

There is zero guarantee of winning a ring, but you need the Flexibility as a GM to GO get that one final piece to put you over the top. EVEN if that one final piece might be a year or two away! Dombrowski made some very good trades but he over spent on a DUD in Price much like he did in Detroit with Cabrera and let Scherzer walk. Post It!

 

This dude is miserable.

[MADSTORK]

Mainly because I can't just let his nonsense stand. Partially just for kicks.

 

What nonsense? Your pink hat mentality is fine. I won't hold that against you. I will say The Organization needs the pink hats to pay those outrageous ball park prices and praise every player move they make or every draft pick or every new Manager that runs the team into the ground.

 

I myself, when I see an Organization built by a Hall of Fame Executive, win 2 World series Titles then get shown the door to include a Manager who won you both those titles by an incompetent Ownership group, I question it!

Cherington brought the Sox Ownership back into the game with the Farrell hire and the same dirt dog mentality to win a ring in 13. Then Ownership via Luchinno low balls an Ace pitcher with Hall of Fame post season numbers and you have been chasing your tail ever since. Garbage Free Agent signings. What is the result, fire Cherington bring in Dombrowski who continues the string of "not keeping payroll flexibility" by over spending on a DUD! Now that 30 million could have been the reserve last year and this, to go out and get that one big chip to win you a Ring.

 

You only save and spend the big smoke $$ on premier power pitchers like Lester Scherzer Verlander Kershaw to an extent Cueto, not inconsistent pitchers like Porcello. The same for hitters. You pay the superstars of this game like Manny, Ortiz, not the sandoval crawford Hanley duds who eventually tax strap you.

 

A DeGrom trade wins you a ring, without him, keep paying the piper and john henry!

[Bellhorn04]

What nonsense? Your pink hat mentality is fine. I won't hold that against you. I will say The Organization needs the pink hats to pay those outrageous ball park prices and praise every player move they make or every draft pick or every new Manager that runs the team into the ground.

 

I myself, when I see an Organization built by a Hall of Fame Executive, win 2 World series Titles then get shown the door to include a Manager who won you both those titles by an incompetent Ownership group, I question it!

Cherington brought the Sox Ownership back into the game with the Farrell hire and the same dirt dog mentality to win a ring in 13. Then Ownership via Luchinno low balls an Ace pitcher with Hall of Fame post season numbers and you have been chasing your tail ever since. Garbage Free Agent signings. What is the result, fire Cherington bring in Dombrowski who continues the string of "not keeping payroll flexibility" by over spending on a DUD! Now that 30 million could have been the reserve last year and this, to go out and get that one big chip to win you a Ring.

 

You only save and spend the big smoke $$ on premier power pitchers like Lester Scherzer Verlander Kershaw to an extent Cueto, not inconsistent pitchers like Porcello. The same for hitters. You pay the superstars of this game like Manny, Ortiz, not the sandoval crawford Hanley duds who eventually tax strap you.

 

A DeGrom trade wins you a ring, without him, keep paying the piper and john henry!

 

Time to fess up STORK. Who is your team?

[jacksonianmarch]

Please god Stork, don’t be one of my brethren. I hope you’re actually a Sox fan

[Bellhorn04]

Please god Stork, don’t be one of my brethren. I hope you’re actually a Sox fan

 

No way he's a Sox fan.

[SoxHop]

Please god Stork, don’t be one of my brethren. I hope you’re actually a Sox fan

 

ahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!! oh man....... JM your classic.

[jacksonianmarch]

No way he's a Sox fan.

 

I have a feeling, unfortunately

[Larry Cook]

According to ESPN, the Yankees think the Mets are asking for too much for de grom and now looking at Happ.

 

Could be a really good move if they pull it off,