A Realistic View at 2018: Part II

[jad]

.

 

So if you know the sub-text, how come David Ortiz and Pedro Martinez are beloved by Red Sox fans? Or Luis Tiant?

 

Because some of our best friends are Hispanic? ... (In my experience, and yours may be quite different, we only get really offended and pissed off by accusations we suspect are true. So if you call me a racist s***, or a wife beater, I just laugh it off or ignore it. But if you call me a stupid a-hole, then I get my dander up!)

Edited June 12, 2018 by jad

[Maxbialystock]

I never did understand the vilification of Gonzalez, who was always a consistent hitter and performed exactly as he could have been expected to do while in Boston (well, I did understand it, but that had to do with the racist history of RS and their fans, not anything Agon did on the field ...)

 

I agree with bellhorn04 and don't at all recall Adrian Gonzalez being vilified when he played here. He not only had a great year in 2011--the best of his career--but he taught Ortiz how to hit to the opposite field. He was always slow as molasses, but he was a very good hitter and a skillful first baseman. I frankly thought he was traded to the Dodgers as a sweetener to overcome the bitter flavor of their also taking Beckett and Carl Crawford off our hands.

 

As for the racist claim, I agree with oldtimer and think we should ease up on claiming others are racist. Racism certainly exists in our country and I'm sure in Boston (where I don't live), but I just don't see it on talksox.

[jad]

I agree with bellhorn04 and don't at all recall Adrian Gonzalez being vilified when he played here. He not only had a great year in 2011--the best of his career--but he taught Ortiz how to hit to the opposite field. He was always slow as molasses, but he was a very good hitter and a skillful first baseman. I frankly thought he was traded to the Dodgers as a sweetener to overcome the bitter flavor of their also taking Beckett and Carl Crawford off our hands.

 

As for the racist claim, I agree with oldtimer and think we should ease up on claiming others are racist. Racism certainly exists in our country and I'm sure in Boston (where I don't live), but I just don't see it on talksox.

 

(Just for the record, I don't see it much here either. I wasn't referring to this board.)

[Maxbialystock]

Back to A Realistic View at 2018, Part II.

 

After last night's 12 inning, 2-0 win over the Orioles, I remain the same pollyanna I was maybe 3 pages ago. The Sox now have Mookie and JDM back, which means we have an excellent lineup--the second best in MLB in OPS and runs scored. Heck, right now I even like the defense which looked pretty darn good to me last night: tie game, no mistakes, and some pretty good plays.

 

But the best part is the pitching now that Pom is on the DL. Five solid starters and a pretty good bullpen.

 

Oh, and "tied" with the Yankees even though they have the better winning percentage. Right now the Sox have 45 wins, three more than any other MLB team. Not too shabby.

[illinoisredsox]

Because some of our best friends are Hispanic? ... (In my experience, and yours may be quite different, we only get really offended and pissed off by accusations we suspect are true. So if you call me a racist s***, or a wife beater, I just laugh it off or ignore it. But if you call me a stupid a-hole, then I get my dander up!)

 

Personally, I think the clubhouse in 2011 and 2012 was so disfunctional that nobody “fit in”; there was nothing to fit into. It didn’t bubble over until Aug 2011 but I think the issues were there all year.

 

As for the 3 players I mentioned, one thing they all have in common is an infectious personality. All three are extremely outgoing and people just tend to like them. We all know people who are like that.AGon always struck me as an introverted guy who would just as soon come to the park, get his work in, play the game and then shower and go home (JD Drew was a player who was even more that way; Yaz may be the ultimate example in Red Sox lore). A quiet personality who people don’t just automatically gravitate to.

 

And I think Max is right, AGon was the cost of the Dodgers taking Crawford.

[moonslav59]

Unless I'm mistaken it appears as if his big contract expired in 2016' date=' at that time he was still productive.[/quote']

 

The Mets are paying AGon over $21M this year.

 

The 7 year contract ran from 2012 to 2018.

[moonslav59]

I never did understand the vilification of Gonzalez, who was always a consistent hitter and performed exactly as he could have been expected to do while in Boston (well, I did understand it, but that had to do with the racist history of RS and their fans, not anything Agon did on the field ...)

 

I loved AGon and was thrilled we got him. I never cared about any of the rumors of clubhouse strife attributed to him.

 

My position has always been that large and long contracts rarely work out- many times from day one. The AGon case worked fine for most of the 7 years of the deal, but it ended badly, most probably due to injuries. Iloved the Manny signing and still do, but that one ended badly as well. I hated the Dempsey & Masterson signings, and although they were not long term, they are white.

 

I lived in Mexico for over 4 years and am married to a wonderful Mexican woman. I've marched for civil rights as fa back as my childhood days in Milwaukee with Father Groppi.

 

Maybe you didn't mean to imply I had racist motives, but your reply made me feel like I had to respond like this.

 

[moonslav59]

Personally, I think the clubhouse in 2011 and 2012 was so disfunctional that nobody “fit in”; there was nothing to fit into. It didn’t bubble over until Aug 2011 but I think the issues were there all year.

 

As for the 3 players I mentioned, one thing they all have in common is an infectious personality. All three are extremely outgoing and people just tend to like them. We all know people who are like that.AGon always struck me as an introverted guy who would just as soon come to the park, get his work in, play the game and then shower and go home (JD Drew was a player who was even more that way; Yaz may be the ultimate example in Red Sox lore). A quiet personality who people don’t just automatically gravitate to.

 

And I think Max is right, AGon was the cost of the Dodgers taking Crawford.

 

Exactly. Without us having AGon, we'd have never dumped CC and Beckett, well maybe Beckett could have been traded on his own, but we'd have probably had to pay part of his deal.

 

AGon did well after the trade, but he had three straight years over .900 and 4 over .870 before going to LA. (.957 first year with Sox and before the contract kicked in)

 

His contract year OPS numbers were...

 

.806

 

.803

 

.817

 

.830

 

.784

 

.642

 

.672

 

Pardon me, if I think these numbers were disappointing or below expectations.

 

 

[moonslav59]

Back to A Realistic View at 2018, Part II.

 

After last night's 12 inning, 2-0 win over the Orioles, I remain the same pollyanna I was maybe 3 pages ago. The Sox now have Mookie and JDM back, which means we have an excellent lineup--the second best in MLB in OPS and runs scored. Heck, right now I even like the defense which looked pretty darn good to me last night: tie game, no mistakes, and some pretty good plays.

 

But the best part is the pitching now that Pom is on the DL. Five solid starters and a pretty good bullpen.

 

Oh, and "tied" with the Yankees even though they have the better winning percentage. Right now the Sox have 45 wins, three more than any other MLB team. Not too shabby.

 

I'm a huge Wright fan, but I expect Pom to come back healthy at some point. Maybe he goes to the pen- maybe not.

 

When the season began, I had hoped we could have offered Pom a QO and got a draft pick out of losing his contract. That doesn't look like a possibility anymore.

[illinoisredsox]

The Mets are paying AGon over $21M this year.

 

The 7 year contract ran from 2012 to 2018.

 

Are the Mets playing that or do the Braves have to carry most of the freight. The Mets signed him for the minimum I believe.

[kenmeister]

Exactly. Without us having AGon, we'd have never dumped CC and Beckett, well maybe Beckett could have been traded on his own, but we'd have probably had to pay part of his deal.

 

AGon did well after the trade, but he had three straight years over .900 and 4 over .870 before going to LA. (.957 first year with Sox and before the contract kicked in)

 

His contract year OPS numbers were...

 

.806

 

.803

 

.817

 

.830

 

.784

 

.642

 

.672

 

Pardon me, if I think these numbers were disappointing or below expectations.

 

 

 

I remember even at the time hoping we'd keep Adrian Beltre instead and just promote Anthony Rizzo to first base. I suspect that would have worked out better than trading for Adrian Gonzalez. Oh well!

 

But no, I don't recommend picking up Adrian Gonzalez now. I think he's done.

[kenmeister]

I'm a huge Wright fan, but I expect Pom to come back healthy at some point. Maybe he goes to the pen- maybe not.

 

When the season began, I had hoped we could have offered Pom a QO and got a draft pick out of losing his contract. That doesn't look like a possibility anymore.

 

Heh, I want Drew Pomeranz to come back, pitch well, and be the centerpiece for the Manny Machado trade

[moonslav59]

Heh, I want Drew Pomeranz to come back, pitch well, and be the centerpiece for the Manny Machado trade

 

LOL.

 

Trading him to a contender might be an option.

 

Free up some cap space and then make another trade to fill a hole elsewhere. This is assuming all our starters are healthy, doing well, and Velazquez looks ready to be our 6th starter again.

 

[Bellhorn04]

The Mets are paying AGon over $21M this year.

 

The 7 year contract ran from 2012 to 2018.

 

The Mets only paid minimum I think. Braves were on the hook for the 22 million, they released him, similar to us and HanRam.

[moonslav59]

The Mets only paid minimum I think. Braves were on the hook for the 22 million, they released him, similar to us and HanRam.

 

That's right. This is the last year of the contract he signed with Boston. The last 2 of the 7 year deal were bad. The others were good but still no where near what he did the 4 years before the contact kicked in.

[notin]

I'm not so sure AGon was 'vilified'.

 

He had the misfortune of having his first season with the team end in one of the worst collapses in baseball history.

 

He said a few things that rubbed people the wrong way.

 

As for his play, he did disappoint in one regard. People were expecting a 40 home run slugger but his power seemed to have been diminished by his shoulder surgery.

 

When asked about the collapse of the 2011 team, he said it was "God's will." That absolutely rubbed some Puerto pne the wrong way, despite that his religious commentary should be untouchable if it's not offensive. ..

[dgalehouse]

I don't think AGon being Hispanic had anything at all to do with his being disliked by some fans. He was known as a complainer and clubhouse lawyer. That rubbed some the wrong way. Also , some may have had unreasonably high expectations for him. Also , and sadly , some disliked him for his outspoken religious views. The word " racist " is thrown around much too loosely . Real racism should not be linked with every little thing that happens in life.

[moonslav59]

I don't think AGon being Hispanic had anything at all to do with his being disliked by some fans. He was known as a complainer and clubhouse lawyer. That rubbed some the wrong way. Also , some may have had unreasonably high expectations for him. Also , and sadly , some disliked him for his outspoken religious views. The word " racist " is thrown around much too loosely . Real racism should not be linked with every little thing that happens in life.

 

Very well said.

[Spudboy]

I don't think AGon being Hispanic had anything at all to do with his being disliked by some fans. He was known as a complainer and clubhouse lawyer. That rubbed some the wrong way. Also , some may have had unreasonably high expectations for him. Also , and sadly , some disliked him for his outspoken religious views. The word " racist " is thrown around much too loosely . Real racism should not be linked with every little thing that happens in life.

 

Yup.

[mvp 78]

I never did understand the vilification of Gonzalez, who was always a consistent hitter and performed exactly as he could have been expected to do while in Boston (well, I did understand it, but that had to do with the racist history of RS and their fans, not anything Agon did on the field ...)

 

I have no problem calling out racism, but I don’t see it in this case. He was the main cog on a team that had an epic meltdown. The next season was another mess altogether with players and management openly fighting. He didn’t have a great attitude to begin with, but many people saw his West Coast vibe as just not caring about winning. He fit in better in CA not because of demographics but because of the easy going sports culture out there.

[Slasher9]

OK. i'm going to say it.....DD needs to get us a second baseman before the deadline.

I 100% do not believe Pedroia will be back this season and whatever does come back will not be the Pedroia we remember.

I 100% do not believe we should have Holt/Nunez as the fulltime 2b tandem. i dont care so much about the offense stats. it's the D.

our window is NOW. the Cliff is real.

DD - git R dun

[moonslav59]

OK. i'm going to say it.....DD needs to get us a second baseman before the deadline.

I 100% do not believe Pedroia will be back this season and whatever does come back will not be the Pedroia we remember.

I 100% do not believe we should have Holt/Nunez as the fulltime 2b tandem. i dont care so much about the offense stats. it's the D.

our window is NOW. the Cliff is real.

DD - git R dun

 

Is Marco Hernandez due back this year?

[Slasher9]

Is Marco Hernandez due back this year?

when it comes to our medical staff i cannot count on this happening. or happening successfully.....

 

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

I think there's an obvious reason why the charge is often made. Now mind you, I don't think Boston is in the same league as, say, the football team from Washington, and obviously things are improving since the days of Pumpsie Green. But it was the last baseball team to integrate, and that legacy is still with us, just as it is in D.C. I spend a lot of time in LA, and hear fans hurl invective about the Dodgers all the time (less so now that that a-hole McCourt is out of the picture), but I never hear that particular accusation; so it's not as if the charge is just tossed about at random.

 

As a Redskins and a Red Sox fan I think it's idiotic to maintain that they have a racist legacy today for having racists owners a thousand years ago who were the last to integrate. I'd say that if it were the Yankees and Eagles.

[jad]

As a Redskins and a Red Sox fan I think it's idiotic to maintain that they have a racist legacy today for having racists owners a thousand years ago who were the last to integrate. I'd say that if it were the Yankees and Eagles.

 

Well, we disagree. When I lived in So Dakota, I heard the word 'redskins' and 'skins' dozens, maybe hundreds of times. Not once, that is NEVER, did I hear it used in a positive or even a neutral sense. It was always pejorative. I don't think that Washington fans who use it see themselves as racists, nor do I think you are. But on the plains, that's a different story. (As for Boston and Washington having racist owners "a thousand years ago," you must be a lot younger than me, despite your screen name!)

[harmony]

Boston reliever Carson Smith reportedly is scheduled for shoulder surgery on Wednesday:

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/06/carson-smith-to-undergo-shoulder-surgery.html#comments

 

... fueling speculation that the righthander could be non-tendered in the offseason.

[a700hitter]

Well, we disagree. When I lived in So Dakota, I heard the word 'redskins' and 'skins' dozens, maybe hundreds of times. Not once, that is NEVER, did I hear it used in a positive or even a neutral sense. It was always pejorative. I don't think that Washington fans who use it see themselves as racists, nor do I think you are. But on the plains, that's a different story. (As for Boston and Washington having racist owners "a thousand years ago," you must be a lot younger than me, despite your screen name!)

I am also haunted by the millions in philanthropic donations by the Yawkeys.

[jad]

I am also haunted by the millions in philanthropic donations by the Yawkeys.

 

The days of buying Indulgences are long gone.

[Kimmi]

Red Sox Scoring during last 8 games:

9

6

7

2

0

4

2

2

 

The last 5 games the scoring has been down and its a good thing our pitching was as good as it has been. With so little out of the bottom of the lineup and with Mookie just now getting back, it was probable that some of our bigger hitters would go through off periods. Moreland has been of late and JDM can't be a hero every night. Lets hope Mookie can get a good feel of ML pitching with a few more reps. The good news is Beni and Bogey still were productive last night.

 

#bringbackhanley

[harmony]

The Red Sox acquired outfielder Eric Filia to complete the Roenis Elias trade:

 

 

The nearly 26-year-old Filia, perhaps my favorite Seattle prospect, led UCLA to the NCAA title as a sophomore before a suspension for plagiarizing a philosophy paper. Filia, who was the 2017 Arizona Fall League batting champ, recently completed a 50-game suspension for testing positive a second time for a drug of abuse.

 

The guy can flat out hit.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=filia-000eri&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-

Edited June 12, 2018 by harmony