Front office Decisions

[mvp 78]

They rehire Ben Cherington who finishes last a record 5 straight seasons.

 

Despair and Civil Unrest grip the City of Boston and Fenway Park is burned to the ground on a massive riot.

 

The once Great wealthy iconic franchise is broke and resettles in Plattsburgh.

New stadium and cheaper tickets???? I'm in.

[oldtimer]

The unpredictability of price's situation and not knowing if Wright will ever be the same pitcher he was last year means we need to keep two guys at Pawtucket that could start for us in Boston if they can not make it through some, most or all of next season.

 

We have Velasquez and Johnson, who had the worst luck of all Red Sox minor leaguers. Plus a wild card in beeks.

 

We should be set for next year unless there are more medical issues than we know.

 

We lost Wright through a base running substitution by JF. One move that has had long term repurcussions for the team. Haven't seen Velasquez or Owens show that they can handle a SP role. Groome is still a year away and Price (a good name) may never come back. We need to look for a SP as Fister isn't a guy we can trust.

[moonslav59]

We lost Wright through a base running substitution by JF. One move that has had long term repurcussions for the team. Haven't seen Velasquez or Owens show that they can handle a SP role. Groome is still a year away and Price (a good name) may never come back. We need to look for a SP as Fister isn't a guy we can trust.

 

I'm still thinking we may have dropped the ball on Sonny Gray.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm still thinking we may have dropped the ball on Sonny Gray.

 

Of course you are.

[SoxnCycles]

The whole point in staying under the tax this year is so that he has the flexibility to go over it next year. He will likely to that, but it will be within reason.

 

Yup.

[moonslav59]

Of course you are.

 

I think the cost was lower than expected. There was certainly high risk involved, but Gray can be an ace.

[Nick]

I'm still thinking we may have dropped the ball on Sonny Gray.

 

Looks like he would have fitted under the cap for this year....You can't ever have enough pitching.

[mvp 78]

Looks like he would have fitted under the cap for this year....You can't ever have enough pitching.

 

Sox didn't have the trade pieces to make it work the way the Yanks did.

[moonslav59]

Sox didn't have the trade pieces to make it work the way the Yanks did.

 

Hard to know. Maybe I'm undervaluing what the Yankees gave up due to injury concerns, but we do still have some nice prospects not named Devers.

 

 

I'll always kick the tires on a good to great pitcher under team control for a few years at a pretty low cost. I'm not saying DD didn't kick the tires, but he did say, we are "not looking for SP'ing."

[mvp 78]

Hard to know. Maybe I'm undervaluing what the Yankees gave up due to injury concerns, but we do still have some nice prospects not named Devers.

 

 

I'll always kick the tires on a good to great pitcher under team control for a few years at a pretty low cost. I'm not saying DD didn't kick the tires, but he did say, we are "not looking for SP'ing."

 

They gave up 3 top 100 prospects. The Sox didn't have that to give up. It's not up for question.

[mvp 78]

@MikeSilvermanBB

 

BREAKING: John Henry: Red Sox ready to change name of "Yawkey Way." He's "haunted" by racist legacy of ex-owner.

 

f*** yeah! I take back everything I've said about JH being a vampire.

[moonslav59]

They gave up 3 top 100 prospects. The Sox didn't have that to give up. It's not up for question.

 

You think GMs base trade value on some services rankings?

 

By and large those services do pretty well ranking players, but when serious injuries are involved, I'm not sure those rankings represent true value. Plus, I am sure some GMs and organizations surely value players differently. Some team might prefer having Mata over someone ranked 92nd.

 

They might have preferred 2 healthy top 100 prospects (Groome & Chavis) over 3 with 2 having current serious injuries.

 

I think this deal is pretty darn comparable, if not better:

 

Groome

Chavis

Mata

Flores

(adding Beeks or Lakins could be an option as well)

 

According to Baseball America's mid season top 100, the Yankee top prospects were:

3 Torres

36 Rutherford

49 Frazier

56 Adams

71 Florial

73 Sheffield

87 Groome

89 Fowler

96 Chavis

 

Mateo & Kaprielian were not top 100 on this ranking list.

 

MLB had Groome at 23, Sam Travis at 89 and Bobby Dalbec at 92 with none of the Ysankee players in the trade listed.

 

Before the season started, Baseball Prospectus had this:

29 Groome

43 Mateo

58 Kaprielian

NR Fowler

 

[Slasher9]

@MikeSilvermanBB

 

BREAKING: John Henry: Red Sox ready to change name of "Yawkey Way." He's "haunted" by racist legacy of ex-owner.

 

f*** yeah! I take back everything I've said about JH being a vampire.

 

IN. would be a step in the right direction for an organization with a terribly racist past.

[mvp 78]

You think GMs base trade value on some services rankings?

 

By and large those services do pretty well ranking players, but when serious injuries are involved, I'm not sure those rankings represent true value. Plus, I am sure some GMs and organizations surely value players differently. Some team might prefer having Mata over someone ranked 92nd.

 

They might have preferred 2 healthy top 100 prospects (Groome & Chavis) over 3 with 2 having current serious injuries.

 

I think this deal is pretty darn comparable, if not better:

 

Groome

Chavis

Mata

Flores

(adding Beeks or Lakins could be an option as well)

 

According to Baseball America's mid season top 100, the Yankee top prospects were:

3 Torres

36 Rutherford

49 Frazier

56 Adams

71 Florial

73 Sheffield

87 Groome

89 Fowler

96 Chavis

 

Mateo & Kaprielian were not top 100 on this ranking list.

 

MLB had Groome at 23, Sam Travis at 89 and Bobby Dalbec at 92 with none of the Ysankee players in the trade listed.

 

Before the season started, Baseball Prospectus had this:

29 Groome

43 Mateo

58 Kaprielian

NR Fowler

 

 

Groome, Chavis, Mata and Flores (who I don't believe they can trade yet), for Sonny Gray? That's quite an overpay. That's a bigger haul than what the ChiSox got for Sale. No thanks.

[moonslav59]

Groome, Chavis, Mata and Flores (who I don't believe they can trade yet), for Sonny Gray? That's quite an overpay. That's a bigger haul than what the ChiSox got for Sale. No thanks.

 

1) First, you said we didn't have the pieces. Now, you say my offer is an "overpay".

 

2) I'm not saying I'd give all those 4, but I was just pointing out we "had the pieces" without giving up Devers.

 

3) I think you can trade Flores, or at least call it a PTBNL and send him later.

 

[mvp 78]

1) First, you said we didn't have the pieces. Now, you say my offer is an "overpay".

 

2) I'm not saying I'd give all those 4, but I was just pointing out we "had the pieces" without giving up Devers.

 

3) I think you can trade Flores, or at least call it a PTBNL and send him later.

 

 

1. Yankees had enough pieces to make the trade AND not gut their farm.

 

2. Sox can't and wouldn't make the trade because it would gut their farm, which Henry has stated he won't do.

[Kimmi]

Our farm has more or less already been gutted.

 

Who knows how much the Yankees were willing to give up? We can't afford to get into a prospect bidding war with them.

[OH FOY]

If Acevedo is not in top 100 in BA list, then either they missed him, or tells you how strong the Yankees Farm is. He should be in the top 50. They got Groome but not Acevedo, they must have been drinking that day. Edited August 18, 2017 by OH FOY!

[reYoukilis]

They rehire Ben Cherington who finishes last a record 5 straight seasons.

 

Despair and Civil Unrest grip the City of Boston and Fenway Park is burned to the ground on a massive riot.

 

The once Great wealthy iconic franchise is broke and resettles in Plattsburgh.

Uhh, this first place team practically IS Cheringtons. Including, now, Devers.

[moonslav59]

Uhh, this first place team practically IS Cheringtons. Including, now, Devers.

 

One could look at it like this...

 

Theo's guys (Ben was in the Sox system):

Betts

JBJ

Bogaerts

Pedroia

Porcello (via Lester via Cespedes)

Barnes

Workman

R Ross (via Ranaudo- Ben's trade)

Thornburg (via T Shaw-DD's trade)

Kelly (via Lackey)

ERod (via A Miller)

 

 

Ben's guys

Sale (via Moncada, Kopech and others)

Benintendi

Devers

Kimbrel (via Margot, Guerra, Asuaje & Allen- DD trade)

Pomeranz (via Espinoza- DD trade)

HRam & Pablo (via stupidity)

C Smith (via Miley, via others)

M Hernandez (via Doubront- Ben's trade)

Holt (via Melancon)

Hembree

R Scott

S Travis

M Chavis

B Taylor

 

DD's guys

Nunez

Reed

Price

Moreland

C Young

Boyer

Fister

J Groome

B Mata

T Houck

C Brennen

A Scherff

D Flores

B Dalbec

 

Now, certainly some credit can and should be given to the GM who traded away another GM's prospects or players.

[mvp 78]

Now, certainly some credit can and should be given to the GM who traded away another GM's prospects or players.

 

Nope, ALL the credit. Otherwise, we are going to have to go back to giving Duke credit for building this franchise.

[sk7326]

Here is the thing - we don't know whether Dombrowski will keep the scouting and development standard the Sox had - he has shown he can before.

 

What he has shown - which Cherington never did - was an ability to quickly make decisions on the kids. He identified Benintendi and Devers as keepers - and treated them as such ... not trading them, aggressively promoting them. The other guys he has traded - but he traded for premium quality stuff. I don't see how that is a problem. I had an issue with dealing for an 8 figure closer - but Kimbrel at least is a top shelf entry at that position, and after a meh first year has been magnificent this season. His other big trade was for the potential league MVP this season. The Pomemranz deal I did not like (but did not think was stupid) - but again if you are going to deal kids, a pitcher at single-A who was not mature physically is at least worth a calculated risk.

 

Keep who you want to keep and deal for legitimate major league upgrades - that is how a big market team should operate.

[Kimmi]

Uhh, this first place team practically IS Cheringtons. Including, now, Devers.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kimmi]

Here is the thing - we don't know whether Dombrowski will keep the scouting and development standard the Sox had - he has shown he can before.

 

What he has shown - which Cherington never did - was an ability to quickly make decisions on the kids. He identified Benintendi and Devers as keepers - and treated them as such ... not trading them, aggressively promoting them. The other guys he has traded - but he traded for premium quality stuff. I don't see how that is a problem. I had an issue with dealing for an 8 figure closer - but Kimbrel at least is a top shelf entry at that position, and after a meh first year has been magnificent this season. His other big trade was for the potential league MVP this season. The Pomemranz deal I did not like (but did not think was stupid) - but again if you are going to deal kids, a pitcher at single-A who was not mature physically is at least worth a calculated risk.

 

Keep who you want to keep and deal for legitimate major league upgrades - that is how a big market team should operate.

 

The problem is the impending cliff. When he rebuilds our farm system and has a contending team in place for 2020, I'll have a more positive view of him.

[moonslav59]

Nope, ALL the credit. Otherwise, we are going to have to go back to giving Duke credit for building this franchise.

 

I did credit Duke for some of our 2004 & 2007 championship wins.

 

It doesn't have to be 100% one GM.

Edited August 18, 2017 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

I did credit Duke for some of our 2004 & 2007 championship wins.

 

It doesn't have to be 100% one GM.

 

It doesn't, but I can't honestly see how you'd give ANY credit to Ben for Kimbrel or Sale.

[moonslav59]

Here is the thing - we don't know whether Dombrowski will keep the scouting and development standard the Sox had - he has shown he can before.

 

What he has shown - which Cherington never did - was an ability to quickly make decisions on the kids. He identified Benintendi and Devers as keepers - and treated them as such ... not trading them, aggressively promoting them. The other guys he has traded - but he traded for premium quality stuff. I don't see how that is a problem. I had an issue with dealing for an 8 figure closer - but Kimbrel at least is a top shelf entry at that position, and after a meh first year has been magnificent this season. His other big trade was for the potential league MVP this season. The Pomemranz deal I did not like (but did not think was stupid) - but again if you are going to deal kids, a pitcher at single-A who was not mature physically is at least worth a calculated risk.

 

Keep who you want to keep and deal for legitimate major league upgrades - that is how a big market team should operate.

 

Ben quickly identified Betts, Bogey and JBj as keepers, aggressively promoted them, and watched them thrive- all while many fans and posters wanted us to trade them for "premium quality stuff" like Cole Hamels & Ryan Howard.

 

Nobody here advocated keeping all our kids and never making legitimate upgrading deals.

 

Some are fine with all the deals made, but realize we sacrificed some of the extended future by making all those deals in a short period of time.

 

Some love the deals and think there's nothing to worry about concerning the future or that it is futile to worry.

 

Some think it's fine to try and put a winning team out there this year but to try and balance that commitment with an equal commitment towards 2020 and beyond- or at least close to equal.

 

Some might be in between or somewhere outside the categories I mentioned.

[moonslav59]

It doesn't, but I can't honestly see how you'd give ANY credit to Ben for Kimbrel or Sale.

 

I can understand if you disagree, but really? You can't even "understand" why someone would give at least partial credit to Ben for giving DD the pieces needed to trade for Kimbrel and Sale?

 

Manuel Margot - Ben signed him as an Int'l FA for just $800K

Javier Guerra- Ben signed him as an Int'l FA for $250K

Carlos Asuaje- Ben drafted him in the 11h round 2013

Logan Allen- Ben drafted him in the 8th round 2015

 

Yoan Moncada- Ben signed him as an Int'l FA for $31.5M

Michael Kopech- Ben drafted him in the 1st round 2014

Luis Basabe- Ben signed him as an Int'l FA for $450K

Victor Diaz- Ben signed him as an Int'l FA

 

If DD had drafted or signed these guys AND then traded him, I'd give him 100% of the credit.

 

If Thornburg sucks and Travis Shaw and Dubon go on to have great careers, I'll blame DD 100%. I won't blame Ben. If Shaw and Dubon did horribly and Thornburg did great, I'd give DD almost all of the credit for dumping over-rated prospects for something useful.

 

It's the nature of GM evaluation.

 

 

[Larry Cook]

Here is the thing - we don't know whether Dombrowski will keep the scouting and development standard the Sox had - he has shown he can before.

 

What he has shown - which Cherington never did - was an ability to quickly make decisions on the kids. He identified Benintendi and Devers as keepers - and treated them as such ... not trading them, aggressively promoting them. The other guys he has traded - but he traded for premium quality stuff. I don't see how that is a problem. I had an issue with dealing for an 8 figure closer - but Kimbrel at least is a top shelf entry at that position, and after a meh first year has been magnificent this season. His other big trade was for the potential league MVP this season. The Pomemranz deal I did not like (but did not think was stupid) - but again if you are going to deal kids, a pitcher at single-A who was not mature physically is at least worth a calculated risk.

 

Keep who you want to keep and deal for legitimate major league upgrades - that is how a big market team should operate.

 

Desperate dave can not keep the same standard for scouting going forward because half the baseball operations department bolted last offseason .

[oldtimer]

One could look at it like this...

 

Theo's guys (Ben was in the Sox system):

Betts

JBJ

Bogaerts

Pedroia

Porcello (via Lester via Cespedes)

Barnes

Workman

R Ross (via Ranaudo- Ben's trade)

Thornburg (via T Shaw-DD's trade)

Kelly (via Lackey)

ERod (via A Miller)

 

 

Ben's guys

Sale (via Moncada, Kopech and others)

Benintendi

Devers

Kimbrel (via Margot, Guerra, Asuaje & Allen- DD trade)

Pomeranz (via Espinoza- DD trade)

HRam & Pablo (via stupidity)

C Smith (via Miley, via others)

M Hernandez (via Doubront- Ben's trade)

Holt (via Melancon)

Hembree

R Scott

S Travis

M Chavis

B Taylor

 

DD's guys

Nunez

Reed

Price

Moreland

C Young

Boyer

Fister

J Groome

B Mata

T Houck

C Brennen

A Scherff

D Flores

B Dalbec

 

Now, certainly some credit can and should be given to the GM who traded away another GM's prospects or players.

 

The Pablo/Hanley signings were not smart moves and saddled the team with terrible contracts. At least Hanley is trying to earn his money.

 

The Price signing may indeed be worse, with a huge long term contract and a guy who may either be washed up or one not wanting to be here at a minimum.

 

Am I missing where you credited Castillo and Craig?