Sox hitting??

[moonslav59]

you have watched every pitch of every game for decades??? - sometimes 2 or 3 times??? Good for you Moon - whatever floats your boat.

 

I know no posters here who avoid stats.

 

Being respectful is the key. If you are happy doing what you do, that is a good thing. My idea of a normal person's life, would not line up well with yours.

 

I watch just about every game on delay. I rewind some plays- that's what I meant about 2-3 times.

 

I fast forward commercials. That helps me save time, so I can spend hours and hours studying data. (Just kidding)

[moonslav59]

Moon - I think that I should have added - but who the hell gets to define what normal is? We are all different. We all bring different perspectives to this board. It is a good place to share and yap away.

 

Well said.

 

I know I come off sounding like an authoritarian at times, and I really don't mean to give that impression.

 

It's all relative.

[Kimmi]

I've never said Beni is a negative. I've never said he's a poor fielder. I do think he is a poor base runner who makes up for it with his speed to the point where he is not a net negative.

 

That being said, we all know he could be a lot better without making so many mental mistakes.

 

Maybe the "extra" criticism is out of frustration. It's one thing to see HRam strike out with men in scoring position, but it's another to see someone kill a rally with a bonehead mental blunder.

 

Fair enough. To me, Beni is not a concern.

[Kimmi]

It's not so much being critical of Beni as much as don't lump him in same level as JBJ and Betts. To me, their defense is far superior from watching and not looking at any metrics.

 

It's kind of like trying to compare Swihart's defense to Vazquez'. It's an unfair comparison because the latter has been considered elite.

[cp176]

Well said.

 

I know I come off sounding like an authoritarian at times, and I really don't mean to give that impression.

 

It's all relative.

 

I don't sense authoritarian in you. I am very familiar with those types of people. They can never be wrong. Keep on keepin on my friend.

[Kimmi]

If the metrics strongly disagree with your perception of your observations, I'd re-evaluate my opinion and watch more closely to see if maybe I'm being biased.

 

Yup.

[Kimmi]

I agree, there's room for both. And there's a lot of stuff in baseball that will always be somewhat of a mystery. It just seems to be the nature of the game, and it has a lot to do with why baseball is the greatest game to talk about...you never run out of material.

 

Has anyone ever said that there is not room for both? Honestly?

[moonslav59]

I don't sense authoritarian in you. I am very familiar with those types of people. They can never be wrong. Keep on keepin on my friend.

 

Thanks.

 

Sometimes I state opinions like they are facts....like an encyclopedia.

 

Using data can also gives an air a of know-it-all, when we all know data can be used to support opposite viewpoints.

 

I think I should say, "In my opinion..." more often, but I guess I just assume people know that's what it is.

[Kimmi]

Thanks.

 

Sometimes I state opinions like they are facts....like an encyclopedia.

 

Using data can also gives an air a of know-it-all, when we all know data can be used to support opposite viewpoints.

 

I think I should say, "In my opinion..." more often, but I guess I just assume people know that's what it is.

 

It's not you that anyone has a problem with Moon. It's me.

[moonslav59]

If the metrics strongly disagree with your perception of your observations, I'd re-evaluate my opinion and watch more closely to see if maybe I'm being biased.

 

Here's an example: as most of you know, I love defense. I remember when Ellsbury first came up, I felt he was a sure plus defender.

I knew his speed had a major role in his "plus skills". I remember defending Ellsbury against some who bashed him (on "that other site").

 

When I looked at his numbers, I was surprised. I started watching more closely and saw things I must have missed before. I ended up admitting I was wrong. I even argued about Ellsbury not playing LF, so Cameron could play CF.

 

Then, Jacoby improved on his routes and positioning. (He never had even a decent arm.) I had to re-evaluate again.

 

[moonslav59]

It's not you that anyone has a problem with Moon. It's me.

 

That's because you blew it on the Sale trade. (You should have agreed with me!)

 

... just kidding!

 

I caught a lot of flack, and rightfully so by the looks of things this year, for bashing the Pom & Kimbrel deals, so I think we might be even.

[Kimmi]

Here's an example: as most of you know, I love defense. I remember when Ellsbury first came up, I felt he was a sure plus defender.

I knew his speed had a major role in his "plus skills". I remember defending Ellsbury against some who bashed him (on "that other site").

 

When I looked at his numbers, I was surprised. I started watching more closely and saw things I must have missed before. I ended up admitting I was wrong. I even argued about Ellsbury not playing LF, so Cameron could play CF.

 

Then, Jacoby improved on his routes and positioning. (He never had even a decent arm.) I had to re-evaluate again.

 

 

The truth of the matter is, our eyes do lie to us because of human bias. It's like that Hanley at bat against Chapman. You and I saw two completely different things. I am a big Hanley fan, which I'm sure influenced what I saw.

 

It's great when that stats and the eyes agree. When they don't, I'm going to rethink my opinion.

[Kimmi]

That's because you blew it on the Sale trade. (You should have agreed with me!)

 

... just kidding!

 

I caught a lot of flack, and rightfully so by the looks of things this year, for bashing the Pom & Kimbrel deals, so I think we might be even.

 

Ha. If Price had only stayed healthy.... LOL

 

FTR, I did not like the Kimbrel deal either.

[oldtimer]

I expect a couple of additional call ups when Pawtuckets season is finally finished. Brentz can be called up but he wouldn't be eligible for the post season based on my reading of the rules.

[Nick]

I just don't like the make up of this team. It's not balanced. It's good to have speed only if they can get on base. That's not what's happening. Also, small does not mean fast. Pedroia is one of the worst runners in majors. He got no speed. There was a time he was quick, but he's never been a speed guy.

 

This is why I wouldn't fall in love with our team right now. The mix is all wrong. We solved one problem with call up of Devers. Unfortunately we're stuck with Hanley for two more years, getting one of worst production out of DH spot in the league. (and for a guy playing in hitter's park). We got what we paid for at 1B. Another hitting position that has not produced much offense. We need to come to terms with Dustin at 2B. He is going to spend more and more time on DL. His body won't withstand rigors of 162 games, especially not the way he plays. He does not possess elite body. He can't abuse it 162 times a year. He just can't. Our SS position is a mess. His playing time is only justified by his offensive output. If he can't hit, then we need to get a better glove. He will never be a good defensive shortstop. You either got it or you don't. Our catching tandem is just fine. They will not be the reason we lose.

 

Beni is fine only because he's a rookie. Again, I look at LF as power position, a la Manny Ramirez. He's a cheap option. JBJ to me is our best outfielder. CF should be an elite defensive position and we have an elite defender with some power and speed. Not sure where Betts norm is right now, is it this year or last? To me, he would be a very good center fielder. But I'd like to see my right fielder hit little more. (thus I would not be opposed to Betts and Xander as center piece for trade for Stanton)

 

Yeah we're in first place. But this is not a good offensive team.

 

Thus it's a team that's had success mainly due to pitching. This is why you don't ever pass up on acquiring an ace. Sox would have been dead in water had it not been for Sale trade.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Nick

[OH FOY]

Erratic hitting team, game to game you don't know what your getting.

[Maxbialystock]

I have never found moonslav to be authoritarian. He often just throws stats and numbers out there with a smidgen of commentary. If I, on the other hand, find a number or two that support what I think, I use it as a cudgel and the smaller the statistical sample the better.

 

Take Benintendi (please), for example. moonslav says he is weak on those fundamentals he thinks are important and which I generally categorize as smart baseball. Whereas I think Benintendi is fundamentally sound in almost all respects. He can hit and hit with power--best on the team so far this year. He can field and is probably a better centerfielder than leftfielder with a decent arm (he can throw). And he can run pretty well actually. So let me say that again: Benintendi is fundamentally sound in all aspects of the game, with his sweet swing being the soundest--and that's what we need him to be the best at--then his fielding (including his speed), then his baserunning, and then his arm.

 

The problem I see is that he is the least experienced regular we have seen in a while. He was drafted in 2015 and the very next year he was in a pennant race in Boston, and this year he has been asked to be our mainstay, our David Ortiz (that is an insane exaggeration of course) in another hot pennant race but one in which hitting on this team is at a premium, meaning we don't got much hitting.

 

At the same time his manager, looking at the worst Sox slugging percentage in the 15 or so years of the John Henry era, has thrown caution and Bill James to the winds, and encouraged his guys to run, run, run. That is not Red Sox baseball, not as long as the home field has the green monster.

 

Benintendi has therefore been encouraged to use his speed as well as his bat to help the team score in a season when scoring runs has been a problem. Unfortunately for Beni, almost all of his baseball training was at the amateur level. Remember, MLB is unique among major sports in America that has an elaborate apprenticeship apparatus designed to hone all baseball skills. Last year, Beni really wasn't that long at AA before he skipped AAA entirely and moved directly to MLB, about which many talksox contributors have said the defense is just a whole lot better in no small part because the great majority of the guys on the field are experienced professionals at the highest level of baseball.

 

Interestingly, Beni has stolen 18 of 22 bases so far, a better ratio than Mookie--who is masterful on the bases--in his first full year at Boston. So, I'm sorry, moon, but you simply can't say Beni is a bad baserunner. Yes, absolutely, he has run into outs, but I would argue that's because of his inexperience with MLB arms and skill at nailing intemperate baserunners combined with a manager who has told everyone with any speed to gamble a little. My gosh, Vazquez has 7 stolen bases, and dogs are living with cats.

 

I say again, Beni gets a pass on rookie mistakes because he deserves it. He is fundamentally sound in everything except MLB experience.

[Bellhorn04]

Thus it's a team that's had success mainly due to pitching. This is why you don't ever pass up on acquiring an ace. Sox would have been dead in water had it not been for Sale trade.

 

And if Sale doesn't go back to pitching like an ace they're dead in the water anyway.

[Bellhorn04]

Has anyone ever said that there is not room for both? Honestly?

 

I was just trying to say there's room for everybody's opinion...maybe it didn't come across that way.

[cp176]

I was just trying to say there's room for everybody's opinion...maybe it didn't come across that way.

 

It came across exactly like you wanted it to. Good job.

[cp176]

I have never found moonslav to be authoritarian. He often just throws stats and numbers out there with a smidgen of commentary. If I, on the other hand, find a number or two that support what I think, I use it as a cudgel and the smaller the statistical sample the better.

 

Take Benintendi (please), for example. moonslav says he is weak on those fundamentals he thinks are important and which I generally categorize as smart baseball. Whereas I think Benintendi is fundamentally sound in almost all respects. He can hit and hit with power--best on the team so far this year. He can field and is probably a better centerfielder than leftfielder with a decent arm (he can throw). And he can run pretty well actually. So let me say that again: Benintendi is fundamentally sound in all aspects of the game, with his sweet swing being the soundest--and that's what we need him to be the best at--then his fielding (including his speed), then his baserunning, and then his arm.

 

The problem I see is that he is the least experienced regular we have seen in a while. He was drafted in 2015 and the very next year he was in a pennant race in Boston, and this year he has been asked to be our mainstay, our David Ortiz (that is an insane exaggeration of course) in another hot pennant race but one in which hitting on this team is at a premium, meaning we don't got much hitting.

 

At the same time his manager, looking at the worst Sox slugging percentage in the 15 or so years of the John Henry era, has thrown caution and Bill James to the winds, and encouraged his guys to run, run, run. That is not Red Sox baseball, not as long as the home field has the green monster.

 

Benintendi has therefore been encouraged to use his speed as well as his bat to help the team score in a season when scoring runs has been a problem. Unfortunately for Beni, almost all of his baseball training was at the amateur level. Remember, MLB is unique among major sports in America that has an elaborate apprenticeship apparatus designed to hone all baseball skills. Last year, Beni really wasn't that long at AA before he skipped AAA entirely and moved directly to MLB, about which many talksox contributors have said the defense is just a whole lot better in no small part because the great majority of the guys on the field are experienced professionals at the highest level of baseball.

 

Interestingly, Beni has stolen 18 of 22 bases so far, a better ratio than Mookie--who is masterful on the bases--in his first full year at Boston. So, I'm sorry, moon, but you simply can't say Beni is a bad baserunner. Yes, absolutely, he has run into outs, but I would argue that's because of his inexperience with MLB arms and skill at nailing intemperate baserunners combined with a manager who has told everyone with any speed to gamble a little. My gosh, Vazquez has 7 stolen bases, and dogs are living with cats.

 

I say again, Beni gets a pass on rookie mistakes because he deserves it. He is fundamentally sound in everything except MLB experience.

 

Max - Are you related to AB?

[Maxbialystock]

I was just trying to say there's room for everybody's opinion...maybe it didn't come across that way.

 

Of course it came across that way, and there absolutely must be room for everybody's opinion. That's what we are here for.

[Maxbialystock]

Max - Are you related to AB?

 

It's possible. In the summer of 1972 someone like that visited Cooperstown after spending some time abroad, but he never had time to be a fan. Too busy.

[cp176]

It's possible. In the summer of 1972 someone like that visited Cooperstown after spending some time abroad, but he never had time to be a fan. Too busy.

 

a simple DNA test should clear things up -lol

[S5Dewey]

a simple dna test should clear things up -lol

 

ancestry.com!

[Maxbialystock]

a simple DNA test should clear things up -lol

 

I'm not sure we are talking about the same AB. Let's talk about Sox hitting and Beni and whoever.

[moonslav59]

Sox hitting??

 

What hitting?

[Behindenemylines]

Sox hitting??

 

What hitting?

 

This weekend was not good for the Sox bats. If it wasn't for three swings on Friday (An Fister), the $panks would have gotten the brooms out. It was painful to watch. Hitting like that, and the Sox will not hang on to the AL East.

[oldtimer]

This weekend was not good for the Sox bats. If it wasn't for three swings on Friday (An Fister), the $panks would have gotten the brooms out. It was painful to watch. Hitting like that, and the Sox will not hang on to the AL East.

 

We face a lefty tonight in Happ that has given us trouble (who hasn't). We need to get it going so I suggest as I have in the past, that we shake up the lineup. I know Kimmi has provided information that says the lineup is unimportant, so why not shake things up and send a message to the guys that they need to get it going. First of all, despite his weak showing for quite a while, we go nowhere in the playoffs unless Mookie starts to hit. I look for him to pull the ball more and be more aggressive early in the count. I would move him out of the rally killing position and put him up 1st so that if he does get on we can use his speed. I don't know if they will play Pedey two days in a row but if he can we need him against a lefty.

 

My idea of the lineup is as follows:

 

Betts Rf

Pedey 2nd

Beni LF

Nunez DH

Hanley 1st

Devers 3rd

Vaz C

JBJ CF

Marrero SS

 

I hate to leaves Moreland out so hope he can get in as a PH. We would 4 good hitters in to lead off with a power hitter who needs to deliver. I want Beni to pull the ball more .Going off field or directly to center is not whereeither Beni or Betts should live. Putting Hanley back up is a gamble but no worse than having Betts in a key slot hitting the way he is. Maybe he can respond. He also has to swing with a 2 strike count and a pitch over the plate.

[illinoisredsox]

We face a lefty tonight in Happ that has given us trouble (who hasn't). We need to get it going so I suggest as I have in the past, that we shake up the lineup. I know Kimmi has provided information that says the lineup is unimportant, so why not shake things up and send a message to the guys that they need to get it going. First of all, despite his weak showing for quite a while, we go nowhere in the playoffs unless Mookie starts to hit. I look for him to pull the ball more and be more aggressive early in the count. I would move him out of the rally killing position and put him up 1st so that if he does get on we can use his speed. I don't know if they will play Pedey two days in a row but if he can we need him against a lefty.

 

My idea of the lineup is as follows:

 

Betts Rf

Pedey 2nd

Beni LF

Nunez DH

Hanley 1st

Devers 3rd

Vaz C

JBJ CF

Marrero SS

 

I hate to leaves Moreland out so hope he can get in as a PH. We would 4 good hitters in to lead off with a power hitter who needs to deliver. I want Beni to pull the ball more .Going off field or directly to center is not whereeither Beni or Betts should live. Putting Hanley back up is a gamble but no worse than having Betts in a key slot hitting the way he is. Maybe he can respond. He also has to swing with a 2 strike count and a pitch over the plate.

 

Betts is getting nothing to pull. First pitch fastball, which he takes 95+% of the time (I agree he needs to get a little more aggressive with those, he is letting hittable pitches go by a lot), followed by sliders and sinkers away and down. Until he starts going the other way with those, he isn't going to hit. Beni is doing just fine, not sure I'd have him doing much different than he has been at at he plate.