Sox hitting??

[harmony]

Beni is far from being a liability defensively. He does not match up to the standards set by Betts and Bradley, but who does?

The Red Sox outfield indeed has sizable leads in Defensive Runs Saved:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=8,d

 

... and UZR/150:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=22,d

[Kimmi]

On a different note, the Sox are 0 for 15 with RISP against the Yankees this series, and 19 for 128 with RISP against them for the year. This is what has been so frustrating with our offense. We can't get the timely hit.

[moonslav59]

How does this fit in with your general belief that Farrell is the one to blame for the team's excessive number of mental mistakes?

 

I don't give JF the major share in Beni's blunders and have said a few times that my opinion is based on conjectures. I do not know what JF has tried and not tried to do to lessen the blunders.

 

My opinion is that JF should be given a significant share of the blame for the overall team's lack of fundamentals. My opinion is that he has not done enough to either prepare his team fundamentally for the season or to address the issue substantially enough during the season.

 

I could be wrong.

 

I do not think this board has been overly critical of Beni. This board has always shown they can and do criticize everyone, myself included.

 

I do not feel criticizing a player for one aspect of his game means you want him benched, traded or flogged. I love Beni- warts and all.

I'm certain he will improve, but am a bit concerned that some of this stuff is just pure baseball instincts- something that is not easily "learned".

 

He seems like the type of guy that will work hard to become the best he can be. I have no doubt he will continue being a huge asset to this team going forward.

[Kimmi]

The Red Sox outfield indeed has sizable leads in Defensive Runs Saved:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=8,d

 

... and UZR/150:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=22,d

 

Thank you for posting these numbers, my fellow Fangraphs supporter. I have mentioned this before and pointed out that most of that lead is due to Betts and Bradley, but Beni is holding his own. Beni is among the least of my worries on this team.

[moonslav59]

Beni's overall baserunning value is +1.3 runs. Broken down by components, he is -0.5 in extra bases taken (1/2 of a run), +0.3 in GIDP runs, and +1.5 in stolen base runs.

 

His overall defense, including his play in CF is +4 in DRS and +1.5 in UZR/150. The 'ARM' component of his defense is either +2 or -0.9, depending on which metric you look at.

 

So yes, Beni does make some mistakes. But even with those mistakes, his overall baserunning and defense are still slightly positive. It's not like the year we had Hanley in LF. Beni is fine. He'll learn.

 

I've never said Beni is a negative. I've never said he's a poor fielder. I do think he is a poor base runner who makes up for it with his speed to the point where he is not a net negative.

 

That being said, we all know he could be a lot better without making so many mental mistakes.

 

Maybe the "extra" criticism is out of frustration. It's one thing to see HRam strike out with men in scoring position, but it's another to see someone kill a rally with a bonehead mental blunder.

[moonslav59]

Thank you for posting these numbers, my fellow Fangraphs supporter. I have mentioned this before and pointed out that most of that lead is due to Betts and Bradley, but Beni is holding his own. Beni is among the least of my worries on this team.

 

And, some of these advanced defensive metrics have been notoriously hard on LF'ers in Fenway Park.

[Nick]

It's not so much being critical of Beni as much as don't lump him in same level as JBJ and Betts. To me, their defense is far superior from watching and not looking at any metrics.

[oldtimer]

I've never said Beni is a negative. I've never said he's a poor fielder. I do think he is a poor base runner who makes up for it with his speed to the point where he is not a net negative.

 

That being said, we all know he could be a lot better without making so many mental mistakes.

 

Maybe the "extra" criticism is out of frustration. It's one thing to see HRam strike out with men in scoring position, but it's another to see someone kill a rally with a bonehead mental blunder.

 

I think it is a mental error to take a call third strike with men on base in meaningful situations when the ball is clearly right on the plate. Hanley has done that many times this year. Most guys will be fooled at times but guys like Nunez will swing where hanley just stands and looks.

[moonslav59]

It's not so much being critical of Beni as much as don't lump him in same level as JBJ and Betts. To me, their defense is far superior from watching and not looking at any metrics.

 

The metrics back our observations.

[OH FOY]

Get back with me in 2 years about Benni, and his Defense. This kid is real athletic, Gold Glove potential for sure. Absolutely love his demeanor. Edited September 3, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Spudboy]

Who the hell needs metrics to know that Beni is not that great a defensive player?

 

To say that the metrics indicate that Beni is pretty good is just blind faith in others.

 

Dumb.

[cp176]

Who the hell needs metrics to know that Beni is not that great a defensive player?

 

To say that the metrics indicate that Beni is pretty good is just blind faith in others.

 

Dumb.

 

I have no doubt that he will be a fine player for us or for anyone but I still start to squirm every time a ball is hit his way. To his credit he does make most plays and just like in the game of golf it isn't about looks but personally I haven't seen much growth this year with respect to his 1. playing the wall 2. looking comfortable on routine plays 3. throwing the ball accurately to where it needs to be thrown. He is going to get better out there for sure but I don't know about a future gold glover. For the record - since I don't care about the facts, I don't give a rat's ass about what the metrics might say. Before the personal attacks start, I sill like him.

[S5Dewey]

The metrics back our observations.

 

...which is a very good thing.

 

The rub comes when the metrics don't back our observations because it brings up the question of which of them we should believe.

Do the metrics have more value than the observations?

Do the observations have more value then the metrics?

 

IMO there's room for both and both should be respected. When they don't agree we should be realizing that there's probably no absolute right or wrong, but rather that there's doubt.

[Spudboy]

I have no doubt that he will be a fine player for us or for anyone but I still start to squirm every time a ball is hit his way. To his credit he does make most plays and just like in the game of golf it isn't about looks but personally I haven't seen much growth this year with respect to his 1. playing the wall 2. looking comfortable on routine plays 3. throwing the ball accurately to where it needs to be thrown. He is going to get better out there for sure but I don't know about a future gold glover. For the record - since I don't care about the facts, I don't give a rat's ass about what the metrics might say. Before the personal attacks start, I sill like him.

 

I agree.

[cp176]

...which is a very good thing.

 

The rub comes when the metrics don't back our observations because it brings up the question of which of them we should believe.

Do the metrics have more value than the observations?

Do the observations have more value then the metrics?

 

IMO there's room for both and both should be respected. When they don't agree we should be realizing that there's probably no absolute right or wrong, but rather that there's doubt.

 

I absolutely love this game and have forever but I don't think that I have the time to study the metrics (be they advanced or ohterwise), watch the games, and live a normal person's life. When faced with the dilemma of having to choose one over the other, I would always choose to watch the games. That is where I get my enjoyment from. I believe that watching them will tell more about them then a study of their stats.

[Spudboy]

i absolutely love this game and have forever but i don't think that i have the time to study the metrics (be they advanced or ohterwise), watch the games, and live a normal person's life. When faced with the dilemma of having to choose one over the other, i would always choose to watch the games. That is where i get my enjoyment from. I believe that watching them will tell more about them then a study of their stats.

 

boom!!!1!!

[moonslav59]

...which is a very good thing.

 

The rub comes when the metrics don't back our observations because it brings up the question of which of them we should believe.

Do the metrics have more value than the observations?

Do the observations have more value then the metrics?

 

IMO there's room for both and both should be respected. When they don't agree we should be realizing that there's probably no absolute right or wrong, but rather that there's doubt.

 

If the metrics strongly disagree with your perception of your observations, I'd re-evaluate my opinion and watch more closely to see if maybe I'm being biased.

[Spudboy]

If the metrics strongly disagree with your perception of your observations, I'd re-evaluate my opinion and watch more closely to see if maybe I'm being biased.

 

Or maybe call into question the validity of those metrics as an accurate tool to assess a player.

[S5Dewey]

If the metrics strongly disagree with your perception of your observations, I'd re-evaluate my opinion and watch more closely to see if maybe I'm being biased.

 

...or maybe I'd reevaluate my blind faith in the metrics. There are some things that metrics can't measure which can lead to an erroneous conclusion.

[moonslav59]

I absolutely love this game and have forever but I don't think that I have the time to study the metrics (be they advanced or ohterwise), watch the games, and live a normal person's life. When faced with the dilemma of having to choose one over the other, I would always choose to watch the games. That is where I get my enjoyment from. I believe that watching them will tell more about them then a study of their stats.

 

I've watched every pitch of every game for decades, sometimes 2-3 times. I don't find it time consuming to check my opinions with stats and metrics.

 

I have no issues with those who avoid stats. Both observations and data have limitations.

[moonslav59]

Or maybe call into question the validity of those metrics as an accurate tool to assess a player.

 

Certainly, that is one option, but wouldn't you pay more attention to the area in question to make sure homer bias is not intruding on your opinion?

 

We all know numerical data can be deceiving. I don't think anyone here "blindly" follows metrics or at least one single metric.

 

Some metrics actually involve human observations by trained and supposed unbiased people, so disagreeing with some metrics is actually disagreeing with a whole team of observers not just a number.

 

I have disagreed with some data in the past. Sometimes it has forced me to look more closely and see that my opinion was not correct or totally correct. Fewer times, I've continued to disagree with the "number".

 

By and large, the numbers almost always match up pretty closely to my observations.

 

(Note: I rarely look at a Sox player's number and then form my opinion. I almost always trust my observations and then check to see if the numbers agree or not.)

[Spudboy]

This has nothing to do with being a homer.

 

I have nothing against metrics based on empirical data.

 

I will state once again that I do have something against people trying to force feed me their opinions based on what they claim to have read that others wrote.

 

Further, I detest those who insist that they alone are correct because they scoured BBR or a like site. As if that makes them an authority.

 

And please don't say that I don't understand metrics. That is just stupid and trumpish.

[cp176]

I've watched every pitch of every game for decades, sometimes 2-3 times. I don't find it time consuming to check my opinions with stats and metrics.

 

I have no issues with those who avoid stats. Both observations and data have limitations.

 

 

you have watched every pitch of every game for decades??? - sometimes 2 or 3 times??? Good for you Moon - whatever floats your boat.

 

I know no posters here who avoid stats.

 

Being respectful is the key. If you are happy doing what you do, that is a good thing. My idea of a normal person's life, would not line up well with yours.

[Maxbialystock]

This has nothing to do with being a homer.

 

I have nothing against metrics based on empirical data.

 

I will state once again that I do have something against people trying to force feed me their opinions based on what they claim to have read that others wrote.

 

Further, I detest those who insist that they alone are correct because they scoured BBR or a like site. As if that makes them an authority.

 

And please don't say that I don't understand metrics. That is just stupid and trumpish.

 

I love stats and try to use/understand so-called metrics, but I also think they are just a way to start the dialogue (and also to continue it). I like moonslav's the best but I think he too sees them as an aid and not the final word.

[S5Dewey]

I like stats too. I always have. In fact, someplace in my ex-wife's house are copies of the first 10 or so years of Bill James' Baseball Abstracts. Much of what I know and believe about baseball I learned from Bill James. I even used some of his beliefs when I was coaching, with quite a lot of success, to the point where I was questioned about what I was doing even when it was successful.

 

However, IMHO somewhere along the line "we" became so obsessed with statistics that some of us can no longer see the forest for the trees. That's why I continue to say that there's room for both the statistics and the intangibles in our beliefs.

[cp176]

you have watched every pitch of every game for decades??? - sometimes 2 or 3 times??? Good for you Moon - whatever floats your boat.

 

I know no posters here who avoid stats.

 

Being respectful is the key. If you are happy doing what you do, that is a good thing. My idea of a normal person's life, would not line up well with yours.

 

Moon - I think that I should have added - but who the hell gets to define what normal is? We are all different. We all bring different perspectives to this board. It is a good place to share and yap away.

[Bellhorn04]

I like stats too. I always have. In fact, someplace in my ex-wife's house are copies of the first 10 or so years of Bill James' Baseball Abstracts. Much of what I know and believe about baseball I learned from Bill James. I even used some of his beliefs when I was coaching, with quite a lot of success, to the point where I was questioned about what I was doing even when it was successful.

 

However, IMHO somewhere along the line "we" became so obsessed with statistics that some of us can no longer see the forest for the trees. That's why I continue to say that there's room for both the statistics and the intangibles in our beliefs.

 

I agree, there's room for both. And there's a lot of stuff in baseball that will always be somewhat of a mystery. It just seems to be the nature of the game, and it has a lot to do with why baseball is the greatest game to talk about...you never run out of material.

[Spudboy]

I like stats too. I always have. In fact, someplace in my ex-wife's house are copies of the first 10 or so years of Bill James' Baseball Abstracts. Much of what I know and believe about baseball I learned from Bill James. I even used some of his beliefs when I was coaching, with quite a lot of success, to the point where I was questioned about what I was doing even when it was successful.

 

However, IMHO somewhere along the line "we" became so obsessed with statistics that some of us can no longer see the forest for the trees. That's why I continue to say that there's room for both the statistics and the intangibles in our beliefs.

 

I will add that there is nothing intangible about a throw from left field to second base that is caught by the catcher behind the right field line and in front of the dugout.

[cp176]

I will add that there is nothing intangible about a throw from left field to second base that is caught by the catcher behind the right field line and in front of the dugout.

 

!!! - I agree - Even it it doesn't lead to runner advancement, it is still ridiculously piss poor baseball.

[oldtimer]

Back to hitting. I am an old guy now and haven't faced live pitching in so many years it is hard to remember what a difficult thing it is to hit a ball coming in and I never faced anywhere near the velocity and movement that they face today. Our guys have a high degree of difficulty now in that you may see the starting pitcher for 6 innings and get a look no more than 3 times and then it is on to relief pitcher after relief pitcher. Curve, slider, 2 seamer, 4 seamer, cutter, splitter, changeup, 100 mph. Not only that but these guys nibble at the corners and they have endless digital takes on your weaknesses. The hitters may have good coaching and they can look digitally at what the pitchers do and they may have access to better conditioning tools but they still have a hard time.

 

Since a lot of hitting is looking at release points and timing and being able to pitckup spin on the ball, small wonder the hitters take a pitch or two during the first AB. So they need to make adjustments on the fly. The ones that have great eyesight, reflexes and bat speed have an advantage and there is probably something to be said for the approach where a zen like calmness by the batter can be attained so they can react without having to think much.

 

Pedey, Nunez, Beni, Betts when he is right are those kind of hitters. Hanley can be and so can Moreland, JBJ and even Vaz. Lets hope they can do it against a tough pitcher tonight.

 

The really great hitters are unique individuals. We have some with excellent mechanics that are pretty good hitters and those guys are special indeed and we need to hold onto them as they are hard to find.